How Does Mayweather Do Against The ATG Welterweights

Now that Floyd has won again and appears to have a warm place in people's hearts it is favourable time, for Floyd, to look at how he would do against some of the welterweight divisions finest ever.

Without further ado let's roll out the honours list. Please feel free to add any names I have not included.


1. Ray Robinson
2. Tommy Hearns
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernnel Witaker
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Kid Gavilan
7. Barbados Joe Walcott
8. Jose Napoles
9. Emile Griffith
10. Mickey Walker
11. Roberto Duran ( because he's always topical)


In a head to head how does Floyd do against these guys!

Wins via UD against all of them with the exceptions of Leonard and Whitaker who he beats via SD.

He knocks out Duran late or Duaran NO Mas mid way through complete frustration.

You've got Mayweather on the brain and my guess he loses to all of them in your book.......

I'd pick him to beat all of them apart from tommy but even then Tommy could hang his chin out...

Leonard and whittaker would be hard fights but i imagine he makes Leonard lead and Whittaker wouldn't do enough a la Oscar-Pernell.......

Armstrong offers relentless pressure but he could be countered........

Robinson (both) and Duran beat him more often than not and Hearns knocks him out. They are all as skilled as him and hit harder themselves.

The rest are close fights but I've not seen enough footage of these fighters to make proper predictions.

Yeah..Duran lost to Benitez and Leonard when they boxed him and Laing.....

Beats Floyd everytime at 147..

Duran hasn't the power at 147........What is he gonna do give Mayweather a boxing clinic..Make him say no mas,.

Duran is the easiest fight on there..

He's at the very least competitive against all of them. Beats Walker and Duran, because their styles are right up his street; the same is true of Armstrong, although Henry was so good at applying pressure that he might have had the answer to Floyd. That's the one that I would really have wanted to see of all these time-travelling fights.

Of the rest, think he's just a bit better in all departments than the excellent Griffith and Gavilan, would engage in an absolute stinker with Whitaker (can't really pick a winner and wonder whether a record might be set for fewest punches ever landed in a fight) and that he would have too much variety for Barbados Joe. Napoles would be one for the purist, a more interesting chess match than the Whitaker fight. Slight feeling that Floyd could nick a decision, but wouldn't want to bet on it.

This leaves us with Robinson, Hearns and Leonard, all of whom are just as well-equipped to box as Floyd but hit harder than him. Think he gets decisioned by Robinson and beaten a little less clearly on points by Leonard, but also think he gives them plenty to think about. Hearns, as plenty have said on the board before, is his worst stylistic nightmare - you couldn't rule out a mid-rounds KO for Tommy, but it's difficult to see in any case how FMJ gets to him often enough to score heavily.

Loses to the top 4, runs it close but takes an SD against 4 and 5, beats eveyone else by UD 115-113 or 116-112.

Robinson beats him by ko.
Duran wins UD much like he did against Leonard 1 
Armstrong gets countered to bits
Hearns wins ko late when he finally lands big right

Floyd beats the rest

Robinson hearns Leonard and Armstrong are all hard to call. Think he beats the rest. Not as sure as others seem re Duran, it's not impossible to me that Duran roughs him up and out works him down the stretch, but floyd on points more likely.

Robbo hearns and Leonard all naturally bigger, Armstrong smaller, at welter this might make the difference. He's better defensively than all of them, but as has been said Robinson hearns and Leonard carry more power. Stylistically, of the 3 I think tommy might be his nemesis. All guess work.

Duran roughs him up..........like he did Benitez, Laing, Leonard....

We are talking 147............Leonard didn't box in the first fight onetwo and he won on my card...

Duran was great but I'm afraid he's made for Floyd..Floyd was better than Benitez..

Similar styles.

The only three I'd feel confident making a favourite against Floyd at 147 would be Hearns and the two Sugar Rays.

As I said the other day, I could see Hearns-Mayweather playing out similarly to Hearns-Benitez, although that one was at 154 of course. Benitez made Hearns miss more than anyone else ever managed to but just couldn't get in to the fight from an attacking point of view, particularly early. Likewise, Floyd is far too good to be blown out in this one, and he'd frustrate Tommy, but wouldn't be able to get past Hearns' jab and reach, for me. Also worth noting that as a Welter, Floyd doesn't really have that power or work rate to really make Tommy wilt late on as Leonard did. Hearns by UD.

In the two Sugar Rays, particularly Leonard, Mayweather is meeting an opponent who can actually outdo him in the speed department, which he's not been used to. Both of them are natural Welters, not smaller men who've moved up, and I think they'd have too much fire power for him. Again, Mayweather would push them, but I think the Sugars win decisions, though narrower ones than Tommy, thanks to their edges in punching power, speed and chin.

Aside from that, I'd go with Floyd more often than not. There's a chance that Armstrong could do a Castillo I on him, for sure, but I think the majority call is a Mayweather win. Hank's a square-on target for one of the best counter-punchers in history and none of his best wins (Ross, Ambers, Bass etc) were as defensively tight as Floyd.

I think a fight against Whitaker favours Mayweather more at the higher weight. Pea was a brilliant Welterweight as well as a Lightweight, but didn't grow in to 147 the way Floyd has. Pernell's balance wasn't quite as good at Welter and as a result he had a habit of suffering flash knockdowns at the weight, which could swing a close round or two Floyd's way. Mayweather wins a tight decision.

Again, I don't think Gavilan has the power to hurt Floyd or keep him subdued, and Gavilan's defence wasn't too hot. Amazing chin, mind you! He's open for Floyd's jab and I think Mayweather carves out another decision victory without any controversy.

Griffith could be interesting. Emile had wide shoulders, brute strength inside and an absolute ramrod jab - basically all the same attributes which helped Turpin beat Robinson. As we've seen, if you can plant the jab hard and often on Floyd and do it going forwards, you have a chance. I think he could take a few fights off Mayweather if they fought often enough, and I'd see it as a kind of 6 out of 10 deal for Mayweather (maybe 3 wins to Emile and a draw thrown in for good measure).

Walcott you'd have to say only really has a puncher's chance; after all, weighing 137 lb he did clean Choynski's clock, despite Choynski scaling 173 and knocking out Johnson a year later! But I'd say that's the only chance he has. His lack of height and natural athleticism mean that Floyd may well dance rings around him. Walker's come-forward style would play in to Floyd's hands, too, and he hasn't got that natural power to prevent the Mayweather machine from slipping in to gear.

Napoles always strikes me as a kind of 'good in all areas, brilliant in none' kind of fighter. So basically an ever so slightly cut price version of Floyd. As such, you've got to back Mayweather, really. Comfortable decision.

And last but not least, Duran! Duran certainly beats him once or twice in a long series. But I think we can safely say that what he did to Leonard, while amazing, was probably the exception, not the rule, and I think it'd be the same with Floyd.

mobilemaster8 wrote:Wins via UD against all of them with the exceptions of Leonard and Whitaker who he beats via SD.

He knocks out Duran late or Duaran NO Mas mid way through complete frustration.

In no world does PBF KO Duran. Although I agree a No Mas outcome is always likely.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Duran roughs him up..........like he did Benitez, Laing, Leonard....

We are talking 147............Leonard didn't box in the first fight onetwo and he won on my card...

Duran was great but I'm afraid he's made for Floyd..Floyd was  better than Benitez..

Similar styles.

he did rough up leonard in the first fight truss, not that there's a chance of mayweather fighting that kind of fight.

You'll note i said most likely floyd on points, duran was hot and cold at welter, some of it down to his opponents some down to his condition and attitude. There's a chance that someone with educated pressure making floyd work for 3 minutes of every round could trouble him. Maybe a better fight at 135.

All this first fight s**t.........

Means nothing.....................

He said no mas when he was boxed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd fancy the first three over him via knockout but he'd be competitive with the rest.
 
The fire-breathing version of Duran from the Leonard fight would also be nightmare for him.

Well fancy that...

Simon brown probably knocks him out in 3...right ??

Isn't it sad how people see the first Leonard fight and not the second..

Erm I wonder if Floyd brawls with Duran too...............Didn't breathe much fire against Benitez........What did Benitez do that Floyd couldn't !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Simon brown probably knocks him out in 3...right ??

No but Burley does Truss, as long as Charley carries him for a couple!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Well fancy that...

Simon brown probably knocks him out in 3...right ??

No.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Well fancy that...

Simon brown probably knocks him out in 3...right ??

Isn't it sad how people see the first Leonard fight and not the second..

Erm I wonder if Floyd brawls with Duran too...............Didn't breathe much fire against Benitez........What did Benitez do that Floyd couldn't !!

Duran was phenomenal on that night Truss, he'd worked himself into a fever state and fought like a demon. After Leonard -- the cherry on his career -- he partied, got fat, trained for some fights, not so much for others, which is why his post-lightweight career was so erratic.

There's a tired cliche trotted out that Leonard gave away the first fight by "boxing Duran's fight". He didn't choose to do that, Duran made it his fight. You have to give Duran props for that one (all personal gripes aside).

Hagler is above him in your list Haz..

I mean it's hard to take you seriously on any Floyd topic..

Hagler drew with Vito right ?? lost to a three year out welter and beat a Benitez and Laing beaten Duran by one point...who in his next fight was humiliated...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hagler is above him in your list Haz..

I mean it's hard to take you seriously on any Floyd topic..

Hagler drew with Vito right ?? lost to a three year out welter and beat a Benitez and Laing beaten Duran by one point...who in his next fight was humiliated...

Yeah but one of them's still fighting and the gap is closing.

We've been down the Hagler route before. The Vito and Leonard decisions were controversial and Duran rolled back the years (as he managed to against Moore and Barkley -- he was highly erratic, as you point out). Hagler beat better men for me. Obviously you rate Floyd higher due to how superior he has looked against good opposition -- no-one needs to lose an eye over it.

We'll agree to disagree........I find it amusing how all these Duran-fan boys see a guy who lost to any decent "Boxer" he faced bar Dejesus. and Buchanan at 135.......suddenly owning probably the best boxer of them all.......

No mas and Benitez didn't exist..........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We'll agree to disagree........I find it amusing how all these Duran-fan boys see a guy who lost to any decent "Boxer" he faced bar Dejesus. and Buchanan at 135.......suddenly owning probably the best boxer of them all.......

No mas and Benitez didn't exist..........

Leonard 1 did though. Typical trust, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Disregard Duran's win against SRL and beat him up over his loss, then when others do even a hint of the reciprocal it's toys out the pram time.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We'll agree to disagree........I find it amusing how all these Duran-fan boys see a guy who lost to any decent "Boxer" he faced bar Dejesus. and Buchanan at 135.......suddenly owning probably the best boxer of them all.......

No mas and Benitez didn't exist..........

Based on the shift he put in against Leonard, he himself one of the greatest boxers of all time. And he wouldn't own Mayweather but he might beat him.

Don't want to fall out with you mate...respect your opinion and knowledge..

Just not on Mayweather

Hagler above Mayweather...WTF!!!........I have Hoppo and jr above Hagler and Spinks too......

The guy he avoided.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't want to fall out with you mate...respect your opinion and knowledge..

Just not on Mayweather

Hagler above Mayweather...WTF!!!........I have Hoppo and jr above Hagler and Spinks too......

The guy he avoided.

There aren't many who'd rank Hopkins over Mayweather. Steve Farhood recently named his middleweight Mt. Rushmore: Robinson, Greb, Hagler and Monzon  -- and there wouldn't be many who'd disagree with that.
 
I have love for Spinks -- his light heavyweight reign was one of the three best of all time -- but Hagler is ahead of him for me.
 
For the record, I asked the editors of Britain's two specialist boxing magazines who they felt rated higher. Glyn Leach went for Mayweather while Tris Dixon plumped for Hagler -- so it's hardly a ludicrous suggestion.

Would make one point of contrast between Mayweather and SRL. Both had/have better than healthy egos outside the ring, but Mayweather always seems to check his in before a fight, never seeming to let any form of goading, whether from opponents, commentators or fans, distract him from what he feels he needs to do in order to win a particular fight.

I don't think this was always the case with Leonard. I seem to recall that he admitted that some of Duran's crude slurs, plus a few doubters in the media, had crept into his head and he was determined to prove that he had the courage and strength to face Duran head on in Montreal. In losing so narrowly, he answered a lot of his detractors, but it was at the expense of his spotless record. I honestly can't imagine Mayweather being sucked into a strategy designed to give his opponents their best chance against him, however accomplished they might be. Hatton tried to unsettle him before and during their fight, all to no avail, and I'm not convinced that Mayweather cares too much what people think of him, as long as they watch him. Leonard, who was boxing's golden child in 1980, really did court popularity back then.

Very true..................Not sure calling his Mrs a w***e would work either....

Mayweather is the ultimate pro...........

captain carrantuohil wrote:Would make one point of comparison between Mayweather and SRL. Both had/have better than healthy egos outside the ring, but Mayweather always seems to check his in before a fight, never seeming to let any form of goading, whether from opponents, commentators or fans, distract him from what he feels he needs to do to win a particular fight.

Think this was noticeable again Saturday, there was a point where there was a foul and Floyd held out his glove to touch em up with Saul which Saul ignored. Many a fighter under those circumstances would have torn into him to let him know he felt disrespected but Floyd totally ignored the slight and stuck to his gameplan. As you have alluded to he is a model of calmness once it is business time.

Thing is floyd could never have a toe to toe because of his chin. Leonard could afford to.

Top 3 all beat him, Whittaker and Duran fights are a 50/50 for me, Armstrong non stop punching against Floyd great defence makes for a great fight think maybe Armstrong would wear him out with the relentlessness of his attack and win a close decision. Floyd beats the rest and makes it look easy.

Did you watch the fight on Boxnation Jeff ?

Please say yes, so I can eternally mock your principles.

Cheers Rodders

hogey wrote:Top 3 all beat him, Whittaker and Duran fights are a 50/50 for me, Armstrong non stop punching against Floyd great defence makes for a great fight think maybe Armstrong would wear him out with the relentlessness of his attack and win a close decision. Floyd beats the rest and makes it look easy.  

That just about nails it for me, except I make Whittaker 60/40 favourite.

Can someone tell me what quality "Boxer-Boxing" Duran beat at 147 or above..........

To make floyd 50/50 ??

Rodney wrote:Did you watch the fight on Boxnation Jeff ?

Please say yes, so I can eternally mock your principles.

Cheers Rodders

No Rodders, mate who has boxnation recorded it and I watched it at his Sunday afternoon. My principles remain beyond reproach.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Very true..................Not sure calling his Mrs a w***e would work either....

Mayweather is the ultimate pro...........

Sounds like you're suggesting his wife is too.

Usual contribution......

Rowley wrote:Think this was noticeable again Saturday, there was a point where there was a foul and Floyd held out his glove to touch em up with Saul which Saul ignored.

Can't blame him after what happened to Mosley and more significantly Ortiz.

Did you watch the fight on Boxnation Jeff ?

Please say yes, so I can eternally mock your principles.

Cheers Rodders

captain carrantuohil wrote:Would make one point of contrast between Mayweather and SRL. Both had/have better than healthy egos outside the ring, but Mayweather always seems to check his in before a fight, never seeming to let any form of goading, whether from opponents, commentators or fans, distract him from what he feels he needs to do in order to win a particular fight.

I don't think this was always the case with Leonard. I seem to recall that he admitted that some of Duran's crude slurs, plus a few doubters in the media, had crept into his head and he was determined to prove that he had the courage and strength to face Duran head on in Montreal. In losing so narrowly, he answered a lot of his detractors, but it was at the expense of his spotless record. I honestly can't imagine Mayweather being sucked into a strategy designed to give his opponents their best chance against him, however accomplished they might be. Hatton tried to unsettle him before and during their fight, all to no avail, and I'm not convinced that Mayweather cares too much what people think of him, as long as they watch him. Leonard, who was boxing's golden child in 1980, really did court popularity back then.

I feel that Leonard always thought he could beat a man at his own game -- dating back to the amateurs when he ouslugged the fearsome Andres Aldama (and subsequently Hearns). That may partly explain his desire to outfight the fighter (he repeated the trick against Hearns in '81 when he outpunched him).

I don't think Leonard desired to outpunch Tommy........

He simply had no choice...Leonard tried to box on the outside..

1. Ray Robinson - Loses
2. Tommy Hearns - Loses
3. Ray Leonard - Loses
4. Pernnel Witaker - Draw through all 3 judges falling asleep
5. Henry Armstrong - Loses
6. Kid Gavilan - Wins
7. Barbados Joe Walcott - Wins
8. Jose Napoles - Wins
9. Emile Griffith - Wins
10. Mickey Walker - Wins
11. Roberto Duran - Wins 2 out of 3

Fists of Fury wrote:1. Ray Robinson - Loses
2. Tommy Hearns - Loses
3. Ray Leonard - Loses
4. Pernnel Witaker - Draw through all 3 judges falling asleep
5. Henry Armstrong - Loses
6. Kid Gavilan - Wins
7. Barbados Joe Walcott - Wins
8. Jose Napoles - Wins
9. Emile Griffith - Wins
10. Mickey Walker - Wins
11. Roberto Duran - Wins 2 out of 3

Compliment really this considering Floyd started at 130...........

Absolutely, I think he gives every last one of them hell, as well. Perhaps with the exception of Hearns, actually. Think he's the antidote that Floyd so often likes to speak of.

Think Armstrong outworks him despite being outboxed at times.

Good points, haz. To a degree, outpunching Hearns was forced on Ray, since Tommy had most of the answers when the fight was at range. Leonard had his first major success in the fifth round of that first fight by going to the inside and blitzing Hearns, which took away Tommy's power game, but he didn't really press the action as he might have done after that for some time (partly because Hearns was boxing so accurately). I think that's what irritated Dundee into giving him the immortal 'blowing it' salvo.

Right you are about Aldama as well. If you have the ability to beat people at their own game, that's wonderful, but it is fraught with danger and it was, in Leonard's case, at least partly prompted by ego, I would say. That can be an Achilles heel, as the Montreal fight showed. Floyd may have his weaknesses (not totally sure what they are, just yet), but ego inside the ring doesn't appear to be one of them.

Rowley wrote:

Rodney wrote:Did you watch the fight on Boxnation Jeff ?

Please say yes, so I can eternally mock your principles.

Cheers Rodders

No Rodders, mate who has boxnation recorded it and I watched it at his Sunday afternoon. My principles remain beyond reproach.

I'd say that's even worse, you haven't even paid for it. That's no better than streaming, morals shmorals.

Fists of Fury wrote:Absolutely, I think he gives every last one of them hell, as well. Perhaps with the exception of Hearns, actually. Think he's the antidote that Floyd so often likes to speak of.

Think Armstrong outworks him despite being outboxed at times.

Easily forgotten like Manny in fairness......That these aren't natural welters...

Drug issues not withstanding..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Absolutely, I think he gives every last one of them hell, as well. Perhaps with the exception of Hearns, actually. Think he's the antidote that Floyd so often likes to speak of.

Think Armstrong outworks him despite being outboxed at times.

Easily forgotten like Manny in fairness......That these aren't natural welters...

Drug issues not withstanding..

You almost managed to pay Manny a compliment, so close.....

I must be the only one to say it, but Mayweather doesn't lose against any of them. The best they can hope for is a draw because his defensive skills are too good.

Worth remembering that the guys we're talking about were pretty handy themselves, lorus. Robinson, Leonard and Whitaker weren't renowned for being the most hittable of opponents, while Armstrong at his best would make you fight for three minutes of every round and Hearns had the ability to launch pinpoint strikes from a range well beyond Floyd's wingspan. Even Floyd has been known to take the odd punch from time to time...