Why are all elite referees white men?

Is a lack of cultural and genderal diversity holding back progress?

Is refereeing the bane of every match because its all a white men's club stitch up?

Your worst attempt yet at a windup, GE, Rasta Rasivhenge will soon be bigger than the game.

Plenty of Maori, Samoan, Tongan, Cook Island, Fiji refs in the Auckland club competition.

GE, I am watching this thread. You are treading dangerous waters here.

One complaint and this thread is binned.

I should qualify and say "elite referees". 

Look I don't see why we can't talk about this.

In my work we regularly challenge the homogeneity of administrators, bosses and staff make up.

We have women police and soldiers, so why not a woman referee?

If Samoans are so prolific as rugby players, I should say ubiquitous, why do we have no elite Samoan referees?

Is it not an obvious and easy way to help globalise the game?

I agree Rasta is a great referee, why is he not fronting up in the RC? Why do we get beleaguered with Poite and Rolland et al instead?

Japan has 6 A class and 17 A1 class referees. Not one of them is a white man.

When was the last time you saw a Japanese referee adjudicate the 6N
Or rugby championship?

Rugby has been professional for over a decade - why can't we see diversity thriving? And why not lady referees for top class men's rugby? They might have a special knack for getting scrum engagements working much the way a wpc can often disarm a pub fight better than a bulky male...

GloriousEmpire wrote:When was the last time you saw a Japanese referee adjudicate the 6N
Or rugby championship?

A Japanese official was a TJ in the 2007 match against Ireland, and he missed an Irish player take out our winger as he raced after the ball (could have been a try). And it happened right next to him.

I'm sure many elite referees have made mistakes Saint, ask Biltong about Bryce Lawrence. 

So that's one touch judge in a decade? Also he wasn't an elite referee because I'm looking at the current list of the IRB panel and there's no Japanese member.

For instance a certain referee failed to adjudicate correctly on a player being taken out off the ball just last weekend...

Is there any reason you think a Japanese member should be on the elite panel, apart from due to being Japanese of course?

Akihisa Aso was on the nine man referee team for this year's Junior World Cup. New Zealanders should know him since he spent a stint referereeing ITM games. He would have gone back but his young son passed away.

Taku Otsuki has just been named to the development panel for the Sevens series. There's also a Fijian and two Samoan officials on that panel.

I'd like to know why New Zealand referees don't want to be New Zealand referees. Steve Walsh and Paddy O'Brien's son are both whistling for Australia while James McPhail has just switched to the Netherlands.

Is there any reason why you think there shouldn't be Saint?

Look, most international organisations are under pressure to adhere to diversity guidelines. SA rugby itself had a quota system. So why does this Appear to not apply to the IRB panel?

Everyone comments on the make up of parliament or the police force or the army in terms of its representative nature of the underlying populous. So why not rugby refs at the top level?

Rugby Fan wrote:Akihisa Aso was on the nine man referee team for this year's Junior World Cup. New Zealanders should know him since he spent a stint referereeing ITM games. He would have gone back but his young son passed away.

Taku Otsuki has just been named to the development panel for the Sevens series. There's also a Fijian and two Samoan officals on that panel.

I'd like to know why New Zealand referees don't want to be New Zealand referees. Steve Walsh and Paddy O'Brien's son are both whistling for Australia while James McPhail has just switched to the Netherlands.

Probably just like New Zealaned rugby players....Where ever you go in the World and there is rugby, there will be a Kiwi nearby.

If you guys don't mind, this is a serious topic. I'd prefer it if we could have an adult discussion about it.

There's even a Facebook dedicated to the topic of the lack of diversity in the IRB and feelings of disenfranchisement by certain sections of the community. Are they valid? Remember the treatment of some nations in the 2011 scheduling debacle?

Once Samoa is recognised and given voting rights at the IRB then you will start to see them being given more opportunities and resposibilities throughout the game.

But from an ethnicity perspective I dont know why non Europeans arent more representative.

It seems that 7's has grasped the bull on this aspect. I wonder why 15's is slow off the mark comparatively.

Elite referees build up their experience refereeing in top club leagues. Fiji, Tonga and Samoa don't have high enough levels of domestic competition. Japan is getting there, but the standard of play is probably comparable to the RFU Championship in England.

One of the reasons there is more a level playing field in sevens is that there are not really any major domestic competitions.

I suppose you could wonder about the background of referees in major rugby nations. For instance, how does New Zealand fare in bringing on refs with Maori or Pacific Islander origins? Are they represented as much among the officials as they are in the playing base? I think Glen Jackson once turned out for NZ Maori.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Is there any reason why you think there shouldn't be Saint?

Look, most international organisations are under pressure to adhere to diversity guidelines. SA rugby itself had a quota system. So why does this Appear to not apply to the IRB panel?

Everyone comments on the make up of parliament or the police force or the army in terms of its representative nature of the underlying populous. So why not rugby refs at the top level?

Quota's don't belong in Rugby. And usually when somebody asks you a question GE, you reply with an answer rather than another question.

Do Japanese refs ref the Sony/Yamaha league or whatever it is? If they're good enough then they should get a place in the Rugby Championship. Not because they're Japanese.

Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and the like should approach SARU, we have had Australian referees officate a few matches in SA, I think it was in the Currie Cup. Could have been Vodacom Cup.

We have a similar exchange program where our cricket umpires officiate in Australia's 4 day cricket events.

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Is there any reason why you think there shouldn't be Saint?

Look, most international organisations are under pressure to adhere to diversity guidelines. SA rugby itself had a quota system. So why does this Appear to not apply to the IRB panel?

Everyone comments on the make up of parliament or the police force or the army in terms of its representative nature of the underlying populous. So why not rugby refs at the top level?

Quota's don't belong in Rugby. And usually when somebody asks you a question GE, you reply with an answer rather than another question.

Do Japanese refs ref the Sony/Yamaha league or whatever it is? If they're good enough then they should get a place in the Rugby Championship. Not because they're Japanese.

So you are sure that the best refs in the world all just happen to be white Europeans?

Not true: FYI, Malcolm Changleng of Scotland refereed a game between South Africa and Samoa, and various other internationals. His brother David has run the line in the 6 nations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Changleng

It wouldn't do any harm to reach out to ethnic minorities. The more ethnic minorities play the game the more will referee, diverse refereeing backgrounds probably indicative of a strong rugby culture. But then again, elite refereeing has a great deal to do with politics (witness the lack of Scottish referees, and an over-representation from other countries).

How weird west European nations seem to have white people on a higher percentage doing most things  it's almost as if stats would suggest Caucasian is the largest percentage of the population in Western Europe.

Get over it GE there is only one race the human race.

"How weird west European nations seem to have white people on a higher percentage doing most things Headscratch it's almost as if stats would suggest Caucasian is the largest percentage of the population in Western Europe"

Yeah, well you can prove anything with facts, can't you

furra_linee wrote:"How weird west European nations seem to have white people on a higher percentage doing most things Headscratch it's almost as if stats would suggest Caucasian is the largest percentage of the population in Western Europe"

Yeah, well you can prove anything with facts, can't you

SSSHHHH!!! the internet might hear you

Biltong can I complain about this thread for the simple fact that I've tried to make a discussion out of it, yet races and racial issues is the only reply I get from GE when I've tried to move away from that.

GloriousEmpire wrote:When was the last time you saw a Japanese referee adjudicate the 6N
Or rugby championship?

David and Malcolm Changleng used to regularly referee in the 6N, and although Scottish, I'd hesitantly guess that they are at least part ethnically East Asian, possibly Chinese, whatever that means.

Edit, I see that's already been brought up. Although I didn't know his names prior to looking him up, I know that David Rose has been officiating in the English Premiership for a few seasons, and, from clips of him on Rugbydump, there's an incredibly skinny and short South African referee who would be called black who has refereed in the Super XV this season.

I've forgotten his name, but there's a brown skinned guy (think he's Samoan) who was a touch judge in the super 15, and he reffed the game involving south Canterbury on the weekend

Look at the diversity in ethnicity in too flight rugby. 

Yet the international referee panel looks like this:

Clancy, George (IRFU) Garcès, Jérôme (FFR) Joubert, Craig (SARU) Owens, Nigel (WRU) Peyper, Jaco (SARU)
Poite, Romain (FFR) Pollock, Chris (NZRU) Rolland, Alain (IRFU) Walsh, Steve (ARU) 


Looks odd to me. But I'll let you make your own mind up.

The organisations I've been involved with for the last decade have been accountable to have administration and regulatory panels reflective of the underlying population, as do the police, government departments and even the majority of supranational commercial entities. 

It looks just slightly like a dated old boys club up their in IRB management and administration land. Perhaps time to review that situation internally.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Perhaps time to review that situation internally.

So, how do you rate the NZRU on that front? Are they doing enough to get Maori or islander officials sufficiently represented?

I would say the interest in the game from a lot of people in England isn't there in rugby full stop and this is replicated in ethnic minorities. We're starting to see more come through into elite teams so we should hopefully see some people breaking through into high level coaching and officiating in the next ten years. Build up interest in playing first then the rest.

A bigger immediate issue for top tier countries who have a lot of players who aren't white?

Rugby Fan wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Perhaps time to review that situation internally.

So, how do you rate the NZRU on that front? Are they doing enough to get Maori or islander officials sufficiently represented?

Yes. 

Now answer the question about the IRB. Or the IWMRB as they are known in some circles.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Perhaps time to review that situation internally.

So, how do you rate the NZRU on that front? Are they doing enough to get Maori or islander officials sufficiently represented?

Yes. 

Now answer the question about the IRB. Or the IWMRB as they are known in some circles.

Is this just a round about way of saying that the 4 members of the IRB who choose elite refs are racist?

1) the refs involved at the Elite international level will by default by refereeing at the Elite Club Level.
2) There are very few if any Non-white refs in Super XV. Cannot think of any in Rabo or T14. We have just Stuart Rose in the AP - and he is not great.
3) Cannot talk about grass-roots in general, but in my part of England I have not seen a non-white ref at Minor Club or Schools level.


So either we allow people who do not ref at the elite level week in week out to do top internationals (they have done thsi in football - it is a disaster) or we have to encourage more refs at the lowest levels from other groups.

To blame the IRB is the act of a desparate WUM.

You know, We can have a mature conversation about this if we try, because it is an important issue.

The first step is just without fear, admitting that the representation looks a bit skewed. I'm sure there are valid historical reasons for it. But the age is upon us in most organisations where these things are actively addressed.

There is no need for anyone to get defensive.

Diversity is widely accepted to be a Good Thing. So there's no need for anybody to be afraid.

If we agree that there is a skew (for whatever reason) and that representation is not proportional then it's possible to discuss if this is a bad thing or not. Then it can move on to what can be done fairly to redress the balance.

Don't be coy now GE. What you meant by IWMRB was that they're being racist wasn't it? Stop backtracking and being defensive.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Perhaps time to review that situation internally.

So, how do you rate the NZRU on that front? Are they doing enough to get Maori or islander officials sufficiently represented?

Yes.

That's great to hear. Could you let us know what proportion of elite NZ refererees have had Maori or Islander backgrounds? From what you say, it sounds like there must have been quite a few.

You are missing the point here. Lets not devolve into a national
Slanging match about whose dad is biggest please.

This is a serious and delicate issue and requires everyone to us their grown up voice.

It's not about who is most to blame its about the situation we are in and what can be done about it.

If it's not to blame people what exactly did you mean by IWMRB? Seeing as NZ have a good policy on this issue; what exactlt are they doing and do you have the stats to back up how well they are doing it?

One of the 1st matches I saw was Ireland v Japan in the 1991 WC had a fijian ref if I remember correctly.
 
Bit strange to see the ref and the Japanese team in a night club later. Top man top night

There's the spirit Bristol.

GloriousEmpire wrote:You are missing the point here. Lets not devolve into a national
Slanging match about whose dad is biggest please.

This is a serious and delicate issue and requires everyone to us their grown up voice.

It's not about who is most to blame its about the situation we are in and what can be done about it.

You blamed the IRB, then when peopel pointed out that actually the problem starts way before that you removed those references from your posts. How do we have a grown up discussion when you go back and edit what you wrote to try and make others look silly?

No 7&1/2 wrote:If it's not to blame people what exactly did you mean by IWMRB? Seeing as NZ have a good policy on this issue; what exactlt are they doing and do you have the stats to back up how well they are doing it?

Like it or not 7.5, I'm outlining that there are growing seeds if discontent at the perception of cultural bias in the IRB in some sections. We saw evidence of this with ugly scenes following the last RWC. 

Samoas prime minister has responded positively by challenging Samoa to produce an international referee. Also a proxy challenge to the IRB inherent there. 

I think time has come for the IRB to rise to the challenge. 

Also 7.5 the NZRU are not responsible for selection of the international referee panel or super rugby adjudication which falls to the IRB and SANZAR respectively. I think the IRB should show some top down leadership and not wait to be driven again by innovation this time arising in the NZRU equal opportunity employment policy.

I'm not saying it can happen it should happen overnight, and is be loathes to see quotas introduced. But being aware of the issue and being able to debate it openly without fear of censorship or ostracisation are the first steps.

LondonTiger wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:You are missing the point here. Lets not devolve into a national
Slanging match about whose dad is biggest please.

This is a serious and delicate issue and requires everyone to us their grown up voice.

It's not about who is most to blame its about the situation we are in and what can be done about it.

You blamed the IRB, then when peopel pointed out that actually the problem starts way before that you removed those references from your posts. How do we have a grown up discussion when you go back and edit what you wrote to try and make others look silly?

I didnt edit anything out. It's not a blame game going on here, I'm raising a serious issue for discussion.

You didn't really answer either question.

In want to keep the thread on topic and your questions are diversionary. In answer to the issue of the apparent skew in international referees you are trying to blame NZ for some bizarre reason and I don't think that is constructive.

Hmm. To do anything about the issue you need to know what's holding people back, if indeed they are being held back. You seem to think this is down to high level 'IWMRB' and cultural bias. You said that Maori/islander officials are well represented so I'm asking what the stats are and how this was achieved.

Both points relate directly to the thread. Do you have an answer?

Read Lauries post right at the top of the thread.

So you don't know figures then, fair enough. What processes are NZ employing to ensure there are plenty. What have they done to overcome any issues with it? What can be done to overcome this cultural bias and how wide spread do you think it is?

I've touched briefly on points in England I'm intrigued to see how problems can be overcome in different areas of the world.

Given that France, Ireland and South Africa each have two refs at the top table it is obvious that they are setting the standard for referees in the international game.
Perhaps a mentoring system where each of the underrepresented nations could send their promising young refs to learn at close quarters.
Samoa, Japan, Argentina, Scotland, England etc. could each send two ethnically, genderally diverse candidates, with Australia, New Zealand and Wales sending one candidate each for what would surely be a much sought after internship.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you don't know figures then, fair enough. What processes are NZ employing to ensure there are plenty. What have they done to overcome any issues with it? What can be done to overcome this cultural bias and how wide spread do you think it is?

Obviously, given the make up of the IRB international
Panel. The problem is endemic to the IRB.

I'm not sure why you seem to believe NZ are responsible for fixing this issue.

The issue, if there is one which you still haven't clarified if you accept, lies in the organisation not with a specific country.