Will joe Schmit be another Robbie Deans at international level rugby or not?

I am a huge admirer of Schmit, though I think we were all admirers of Deans at crusaders too.
Can Schmidt do what Kidney and O'Sullivan couldn't with the Irishnational team...?

What couldn't Kidney and O'Sullivan do?

To answer your question, he probably will be. The fact that some Irish already think Schmidt is a better coach than the Great Gats is absolutely hilarious.

The Saint wrote:

To answer your question, he probably will be. The fact that some Irish already think Schmidt is a better coach than the Great Gats is absolutely hilarious.

         

   







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Good question though. But worth bearing in mind Leinster are an Irish team? As opposed to Crusaders

Ireland may have to introduce some more new caps in these coming seasons so it may not be the best time for a new coach coming in, as he will be the one receiving the flak for losses that may occur. The Irish set-up is the most similar to that in NZ, so it should be the ideal preparation for him. I don't think he'll get on that well though. The irish players lack discipline and will attempt to take control of the dressing room. They even had the nerve to question the Great Gats during the Lions tour and have since shown a bitter resentment to the justifiable squad rotation. Also, according to Sin these type of authoritarian New Zealand coaches don't last long in Ireland.

Good luck Joe, you're gonna need it.

maestegmafia wrote:I am a huge admirer of Schmit, though I think we were all admirers of Deans at crusaders too.
Can Schmidt do what Kidney and O'Sullivan couldn't with the Irishnational team...?

Well, where Kidney went wrong, was not playing to the strengths of our best players. He wanted to play a game based on the physicality of our pack and seemingly create a gap out of nowhere in the backs. Most seemed to come from crashing it up the odd time in midfield. Unfortunately we don't actually have the most physical forwards or backs out there, so this was never going to work. So hopefully Schmidt will do as he has with Leinster and play a more mobile game that suits the players we have.

I genuinely believe the current crop of players coming up through the ranks has huge talent, and we have better depth than we have ever had before in many positions. There are still a few problem positions, but I think Schmidt is spoilt for talent in other places.

I guess another problem though is the inexperience that is inevitably going to come with these new players. If Schmidt is going to weed out the rest of the "golden generation" then he is going to have to select a lot of inexperienced (but exciting) players. I hope this happens sooner rather than later, but he only has 2 seasons until the world cup.

Also, everyone ignore Saint, this is a decent thread and he will go away eventually.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I am a huge admirer of Schmit, though I think we were all admirers of Deans at crusaders too.
Can Schmidt do what Kidney and O'Sullivan couldn't with the Irishnational team...?

I genuinely believe the current crop of players coming up through the ranks has huge talent, and we have better depth than we have ever had before in many positions.  There are still a few problem positions, but I think Schmidt is spoilt for talent in other places.

Expect this from Ireland.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also, everyone ignore Saint, this is a decent thread and he will go away eventually.

 

I think Schmidt will do a good job, the Leinster boys seem to love him, and for a coach that's half the battle. Ok I know being popular doesn't win you games, but I think he will have no fear about choosing debutants and dropping players if off form. He seems to be a canny coach, and I believe that will translate onto the pitch, I can see Ireland playing some pretty smart rugby once they have played a few games.

So yes, I think he will be better than Kidney and Deans.

Deans kept Australia ranked second in the world for most of his reign, despite poor returns against NZ. This meant he won almost everything else. This despite enough injuries to fill a private hospital. 

Personally I think Ireland would be rather pleased to have a coach like deans. I don't recall Ireland being in the top 3 recently.

The problem Schmit has is, that one day he is going to have to not select O'Driscoll for Ireland, when that day comes his job will become impossible.

But can he bring Ireland up to Australia's level (when Robbie left), most definitely.

Well tear him to pieces when BOD makes his own decision to retire next year. Schmidt ya bar steward....

playing Ireland this year under a NZ coach doesnt sit well with me at the moment.
Ive a weird feeling one of our never lost to records is going to go this year...one of the two vs Argie...tomorrow a possibility...or ireland.

 That's not a clap. That's a slap Tman. Pull your head in son.  

Kidney was able to get Ireland up 1 game out of 5 it seemed. France have much the same problem. You simply cannot expect to win consistently in world rugby with a conservative game plan. You must bring variety and attack to your game. Schmidt no doubt was picked much for that reason. Perhaps he will suffer early on as he brings this change in mentality around. In that case though he will never be like Robbie Deans. Deans has a game built on a solid set piece, watertight defence and winning the breakdown and using the backline to finish off opportunities when space or gaps appear out wide.

Schmidt to me seems more of an innovator. He wants to use his backs as well as his forwards to punch holes in the defensive line.

Well, considering Declan Kidney achieved the grand slam with Ireland, I would have thought that a grand slam would be a minimum for Schmit. Otherwise he could be seen as a failure, for me though, Declan Kidney gets a lot of unfair flack from the Irish, if anyone is to be blamed it should be Eddie o'sullivan as he had a much better side than anyone else and has won nothing, in fact what as EOS ever won ?

Taylorman wrote:playing Ireland this year under a NZ coach doesnt sit well with me at the moment.
Ive a weird feeling one of our never lost to records is going to go this year...one of the two vs Argie...tomorrow a possibility...or ireland.

Hope you're right Taylor! Beating the ABs would be a dream.

One thing is for sure Ireland is about to become the best passing team in international rugby next to NZ. He made Leinster the best passing team in Europe and reached 6 finals and won 4 trophies during his 3-year reign. A lot of that was down to enabling the forwards to pass just as well as the backs.

I do think it will take time and I don't expect him to make Ireland world beaters in his first year but come the RWC I think we will be serious contenders.

We might even get our first win against NZ during the AIs

slane wrote:One thing is for sure Ireland is about to become the best passing team in international rugby next to NZ. He made Leinster the best passing team in Europe and reached 6 finals and won 4 trophies during his 3-year reign. A lot of that was down to enabling the forwards to pass just as well as the backs.

I do think it will take time and I don't expect him to make Ireland world beaters in his first year but come the RWC I think we will be serious contenders.

We might even get our first win against NZ during the AIs

far easier to coach passing at club level as he is working day to day with the players. saying that it is encouraging to hear that he has taken sessions at all the clubs (barr leinster) during preseason. would be good to see him do these camps wiht the clubs throughout the year

The 'vibe' turned against Dingo in the last two years here, but I think he did pretty well. We were 2 for a fairly long stretch which for us is solid.  

What got him was politics for some, plus for the rest of us we just seemed to stagnate over the final 18 months inasmuch as we gave up trying to be brave or clever.  It was as if he lost his nerve and just picked safer players over having some adventure.  November 2010 we humped France in France starting 8 guys under 23.  That day was the highlight of the whole six years.  Our best rugby in a grand venue when we had no expectation. After that there wasn't much to get excited about.

He was our longest serving coach.  Probably not worth that accolade, but it's probably not much of an accolade either.

booma +1

I too think he started off well, but got scarred and looked for safe results. What would Eddie Jones have done with that backline Deans had?

I think Deans served the Wallabies well but last couple of years lost it maybe with the players not on his side 100%, but that's what a coach had to sort out as well.

Do you guys not think though he was forced into safe results in those last two seasons because his star players were dropping like flies. Hard to build continuity and attack when you're constantly chopping and changing.

We wore a heavy injury toll, but there were still selections that I found it very hard to support.  AAC has been clearly been our best centre since Mortlock, but every time a wing or FB got injured it was him that was sent to fill that gap.  At the same time we used upwards of 15 different centre combos.  If your struggling that much in midfield, and you have one obvious candidate, why not lock him in and manufacture a wing?  Pat mccabe was rookie of the year as a brumbies wing.  He became our centre.  Instead Two Dads will never be remembered as anything much more than versatile, and mcCabe and Faingaa have 20 tests each, and last year our team scored 15 tries in 15 tests.  

Even though they toughed out a few good wins last year, it just seemed to stop working.

You're right AAC has been your best centre since Mortlock and he could've risked a rookie wing. I've never seen a team with so many injuries as it was at the height of the injury crisis last year. Away in SA it seemed every play a Wallaby went down. It was like someone had a hunting rifle in the crowd.

He had players like Barnes who made me cringe every time he kicked and McCabe and Faingaa at centre never did it for me either. Didn't help though along with the injuries a few attitudes went poopie and that only served to aggravate things. I can certainly understand why there was frustration and even something stronger with Deans.

I liken the coaching position to a rock band. In years gone by, they seemed to have been given a grace period to get accustomed to the role and get experience behind them. Nowadays, it seems you need to get instant critical feedback or you're cast onto the scrap heap. ACDC got by on three power chords. Deans didn't seem to get that leeway. They wanted more from him and you look around the world and that's a familiar story. If I can mix my metaphors, coaches are wines that are not allowed to age. They have to taste bloody good right away.

The Ewe Man and Schmidt will no doubt feel that pressure. It's not like they're in the position of Hansen (even though he's done pretty much everything right so far). Both the aforementioned will have to change things around and that takes time and invariably defeats to turn things round. It's those defeats which turn up the pressure cooker and makes life more than challenging. You have to be comfortable with what you're trying to achieve and a determination to see it out.

Deans is a top coach. He kept Australia at number 2 in the world for a long time. This despite having some very average players throughout the squad.

Bring back Dingo!

Just to correct my earlier post, I meant Schmidt would do a better job than Kidney and O'Sullivan, not Deans .....apologies folks.

Also I agree that Deans would do a good job with Ireland, and would add that he would do a good job with Wales post Gats too, should it ever come to pass.

Joe the messiah......hmm

I have high hopes for Joe and it will be interesting how his first squad/team is greeted by all the different provincial supporters and how he works on blending the different players.

For Leinster his game plan has been simple but highly effective will it translate to Ireland...time will tell.

Concerns are the following.
1. Ireland doesn't have an Isa Nacewa.
2. A waning BOD
3. HC is a lot different to International
4. Certain teams like the Ospreys have found him out easily enough.

ME-109 wrote:
4. Certain teams like the Ospreys have found him out easily enough.

That was due to a more powerful pack. And actually in the last fixture Leinster turned over the Ospreys quite convincingly. I know the type of game Ireland want to play. The players are skilful and capable of playing that way, but need to find a way to revert to the old Munster way when it doesn't go to plan.

Blueschief wrote:Just to correct my earlier post, I meant Schmidt would do a better job than Kidney and O'Sullivan, not Deans .....apologies folks.

Also I agree that Deans would do a good job with Ireland, and would add that he would do a good job with Wales post Gats too, should it ever come to pass.

If Gats goes then I hope it does come to that.

ME-109 wrote:Joe the messiah......hmm

I have high hopes for Joe and it will be interesting how his first squad/team is greeted by all the different provincial supporters and how he works on blending the different players.

For Leinster his game plan has been simple but highly effective will it translate to Ireland...time will tell.

Concerns are the following.
1. Ireland doesn't have an Isa Nacewa.
2. A waning BOD
3. HC is a lot different to International
4. Certain teams like the Ospreys have found him out easily enough.

My biggest concern is his approach with Leinster was based on a lot of skills, a lot of set moves and he has nowhere near the same amount of time to put that together with Ireland. A lot of his detail orientated work with Leinster is what made them the best team in Europe during his tenure, but the odd week here and there is a very different proposition- one hes talked a lot about already. A lot of his success really depends on the skill coaching in the provinces. Fortunately I think O'Connor, Anscombe, Penney and Lam all have enough in common with him in terms of general philosophy to prepare guys for the step up.

Notch wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Joe the messiah......hmm

I have high hopes for Joe and it will be interesting how his first squad/team is greeted by all the different provincial supporters and how he works on blending the different players.

For Leinster his game plan has been simple but highly effective will it translate to Ireland...time will tell.

Concerns are the following.
1. Ireland doesn't have an Isa Nacewa.
2. A waning BOD
3. HC is a lot different to International
4. Certain teams like the Ospreys have found him out easily enough.

My biggest concern is his approach with Leinster was based on a lot of skills, a lot of set moves and he has nowhere near the same amount of time to put that together with Ireland. A lot of his detail orientated work with Leinster is what made them the best team in Europe during his tenure, but the odd week here and there is a very different proposition- one hes talked a lot about already. A lot of his success really depends on the skill coaching in the provinces. Fortunately I think O'Connor, Anscombe, Penney and Lam all have enough in common with him in terms of general philosophy to prepare guys for the step up.

I agree but then again its getting the blend right which is going to be his main problem. The coaches are in place all round. There is talent there but no BOD, POC or Woody. The AIs will surely be interesting.

"there but no BOD, POC or Woody"

Missing O'Driscoll did not handicap Schmidt's Leinster very much. They didn't rely so much on their talisman to bail them out like Ireland have. They were so formidable because of the way the whole team linked up and played. Schmidt seemed to be able to mix and match players without having to big an effect on his well oiled rugby machine.

Whereas Kidney relied much more on hoping for individual pieces of brilliance from his best players to drag his overly negative team over the line.

Feckless Rogue wrote:"there but no BOD, POC or Woody"

Missing O'Driscoll did not handicap Schmidt's Leinster very much. They didn't rely so much on their talisman to bail them out like Ireland have. They were so formidable because of the way the whole team linked up and played. Schmidt seemed to be able to mix and match players without having to big an effect on his well oiled rugby machine.

Whereas Kidney relied much more on hoping for individual pieces of brilliance from his best players to drag his overly negative team over the line.

provincial level v int'l. Tell me Schmidt's preferred centre pairing...

Notch wrote:
My biggest concern is his approach with Leinster was based on a lot of skills, a lot of set moves and he has nowhere near the same amount of time to put that together with Ireland. A lot of his detail orientated work with Leinster is what made them the best team in Europe during his tenure, but the odd week here and there is a very different proposition- one hes talked a lot about already. A lot of his success really depends on the skill coaching in the provinces. Fortunately I think O'Connor, Anscombe, Penney and Lam all have enough in common with him in terms of general philosophy to prepare guys for the step up.

Thats an important point. Schmidt has already visited each team and no doubt let the coaches know of his plans. There was also a meet up recently with 50 players. He knows the Leinster players well and they know him so that will help the whole squad adapt to Schmidt too.

The problems we're going to have with trying to replace O'Driscoll etc. are problems we'd have with any coach mind you.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote: That's not a clap. That's a slap Tman. Pull your head in son.  

Kidney was able to get Ireland up 1 game out of 5 it seemed. France have much the same problem. You simply cannot expect to win consistently in world rugby with a conservative game plan. You must bring variety and attack to your game. Schmidt no doubt was picked much for that reason. Perhaps he will suffer early on as he brings this change in mentality around. In that case though he will never be like Robbie Deans. Deans has a game built on a solid set piece, watertight defence and winning the breakdown and using the backline to finish off opportunities when space or gaps appear out wide.

Schmidt to me seems more of an innovator. He wants to use his backs as well as his forwards to punch holes in the defensive line.

Spot on Kia.

Feckless Rogue wrote:"there but no BOD, POC or Woody"

Missing O'Driscoll did not handicap Schmidt's Leinster very much. They didn't rely so much on their talisman to bail them out like Ireland have. They were so formidable because of the way the whole team linked up and played. Schmidt seemed to be able to mix and match players without having to big an effect on his well oiled rugby machine.

Whereas Kidney relied much more on hoping for individual pieces of brilliance from his best players to drag his overly negative team over the line.

In fairness international rugby will always tend to rely on the brilliance of individuals a bit more than club rugby where there is more time to build a team.

Did anyone see the Munster Edinburgh game? Munster played a little like Leinster did under Schmidt. Really good to watch. Penny seems to have got them playing good running rugby with lots of offloads and it worked well. I thought Ian Keatley was quite impressive and really got the back line moving.

All and all if all provinces can start being more creative and maybe even playing a similar way I think this might translate well to the International side.

GunsGerms wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote: That's not a clap. That's a slap Tman. Pull your head in son.  

Kidney was able to get Ireland up 1 game out of 5 it seemed. France have much the same problem. You simply cannot expect to win consistently in world rugby with a conservative game plan. You must bring variety and attack to your game. Schmidt no doubt was picked much for that reason. Perhaps he will suffer early on as he brings this change in mentality around. In that case though he will never be like Robbie Deans. Deans has a game built on a solid set piece, watertight defence and winning the breakdown and using the backline to finish off opportunities when space or gaps appear out wide.

Schmidt to me seems more of an innovator. He wants to use his backs as well as his forwards to punch holes in the defensive line.

Spot on Kia.

Look Henry, Deans, Hansen and now Gatland were all seen as the next great hope for the respective sides they were about to coach and all have been seen in a negative light by many since they either finished or in Gatlands case, largely succeeded. The only reason we havnt heard anything about Schmidt is that he hasnt coached internationally yet, where all the opinions and emotions are magnified. Fact is that at any point in time NH fans are generally negative about their coaches. Certainly Ireland and Scotland. For England Lancaster seen as ok but not quite the spark he promised with his first season.

Gatlands done well for Wales but persecuted and criticised by Lions fans...for winning.

This gives me no confidence that Schmidt will be any better than any of those mentioned...and thats not a bad list.

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone see the Munster Edinburgh game? Munster played a little like Leinster did under Schmidt. Really good to watch. Penny seems to have got them playing good running rugby with lots of offloads and it worked well. I thought Ian Keatley was quite impressive and really got the back line moving.

All and all if all provinces can start being more creative and maybe even playing a similar way I think this might translate well to the International side.

erm....I would say Munster were playing a mix under Penney the same way they played last year, only this year so far they have been more accurate.

I think the difference is they are buying into the gameplan more. By mix do you mean they revert to type when the pressure comes on? Because that what seems to happen a bit with Munster but there were certainly periods when Munster were very positive and attacked and offloaded to great effect. POMs outrageous back heel flick also rivalled anything Simon Zebo can do.

I don't think they revert to type under pressure. I think Cronins try and the lead up to Dineens were classic Munster. In addition they still have forwards out on the wings but this time its working so no one is complaining. I think Penneys style is distinctly different from Schmidt and his approach is different. ROMs backheel flick was a complete fluke, but either way we would have scored the try.

ME-109 wrote:I don't think they revert to type under pressure. I think Cronins try and the lead up to Dineens were classic Munster. In addition they still have forwards out on the wings but this time its working so no one is complaining. I think Penneys style is distinctly different from Schmidt and his approach is different. ROMs backheel flick was a complete fluke, but either way we would have scored the try.

Are you concerned that I think Munster are following Leinsters lead and copying their style or something? The point I was trying to make was that I think we could benefit a lot from getting our provincial teams to sing off the same hymn sheet as they sometimes do in NZ. Penny probably does have a different style but it certainly seemed like there was more offloading and they players were buying into and comitting to the gameplan a bit more.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I don't think they revert to type under pressure. I think Cronins try and the lead up to Dineens were classic Munster. In addition they still have forwards out on the wings but this time its working so no one is complaining. I think Penneys style is distinctly different from Schmidt and his approach is different. ROMs backheel flick was a complete fluke, but either way we would have scored the try.

Are you concerned that I think Munster are following Leinsters lead and copying their style or something? The point I was trying to make was that I think we could benefit a lot from getting our provincial teams to sing off the same hymn sheet as they sometimes do in NZ. Penny probably does have a different style but it certainly seemed like there was more offloading and they players were buying into and comitting to the gameplan a bit more.

There are differences between Penneys style and Schmidts style but there are more similarities. It'll definitely be a benefit to Schmidt. Penney has only been in Munster a year so it will take a little longer for things to sink in to the player's subconscious. Also Pat Lam in Connacht is another New Zealander who is concentrating on skills. All the coaches are concentrating on skills so I don't think it'll be a massive issue for Schmidt. I'd say he'll try to get Ireland playing at a high pace and pick the players who are the most skilled.

Taylorman wrote:
Look Henry, Deans, Hansen and now Gatland were all seen as the next great hope for the respective sides they were about to coach and all have been seen in a negative light by many since they either finished or in Gatlands case, largely succeeded. The only reason we havnt heard anything about Schmidt is that he hasnt coached internationally yet, where all the opinions and emotions are magnified. Fact is that at any point in time NH fans are generally negative about their coaches. Certainly Ireland and Scotland. For England Lancaster seen as ok but not quite the spark he promised with his first season.

Gatlands done well for Wales but persecuted and criticised by Lions fans...for winning.

This gives me no confidence that Schmidt will be any better than any of those mentioned...and thats not a bad list.

There was a section against Kidney from day 1 but after 5 years in the job and with Ireland looking stale and getting worse every year, it was time for a change. There was no attacking coach for the last few seasons and it showed as Ireland looked a little bewildered in possession.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I don't think they revert to type under pressure. I think Cronins try and the lead up to Dineens were classic Munster. In addition they still have forwards out on the wings but this time its working so no one is complaining. I think Penneys style is distinctly different from Schmidt and his approach is different. ROMs backheel flick was a complete fluke, but either way we would have scored the try.

Are you concerned that I think Munster are following Leinsters lead and copying their style or something? The point I was trying to make was that I think we could benefit a lot from getting our provincial teams to sing off the same hymn sheet as they sometimes do in NZ. Penny probably does have a different style but it certainly seemed like there was more offloading and they players were buying into and comitting to the gameplan a bit more.

No not at all - I refer you to what Profitius said.
However I do have a concern that Leinsters dominance was based on a fast paced, high tempo game plan that originated with the forwards. Where it was found out was against teams like the O's and CF who were able to snuff it out at source. I sincerely hope that Joe's way will bear fruit...I just think the step up to intl level will be interesting to see and if he can replicate what he achieved at Leinster then the skys the limit.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I don't think they revert to type under pressure. I think Cronins try and the lead up to Dineens were classic Munster. In addition they still have forwards out on the wings but this time its working so no one is complaining. I think Penneys style is distinctly different from Schmidt and his approach is different. ROMs backheel flick was a complete fluke, but either way we would have scored the try.

Are you concerned that I think Munster are following Leinsters lead and copying their style or something? The point I was trying to make was that I think we could benefit a lot from getting our provincial teams to sing off the same hymn sheet as they sometimes do in NZ. Penny probably does have a different style but it certainly seemed like there was more offloading and they players were buying into and comitting to the gameplan a bit more.

No not at all - I refer you to what Profitius said.
However I do have a concern that Leinsters dominance was based on a fast paced, high tempo game plan that originated with the forwards. Where it was found out was against teams like the O's and CF who were able to snuff it out at source. I sincerely hope that Joe's way will bear fruit...I just think the step up to intl level will be interesting to see and if he can replicate what he achieved at Leinster then the skys the limit.

The Ospreys only ever beat our 1st team once,well a team missing SoB and Healy plus Ross went off after 10 minutes.We scored 3 tries so they didn't actually manage to snuff anything out,the defeat was down to 2 yellow cards for scrum offenses putting us under immense pressure.

 I'm no Ospreys fan, but yeah, them wiping the floor with the Irish over past 2-3 seasons never actually happened.