Munster v Edinburgh, 7 September

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the new season, Munster and Edinburgh fans.
 
Here we go, then:
 
Saturday 7th September 2013
Kick off: 19:15
Musgrave Park, Cork
Live on TG4/BBC Heedrumhodrum
 
Referee: Marius Mitrea (FIR, 18th competition game)
Assistant Referees: S Gallagher, P Haycock (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eugene Ryan (IRFU)
TMO: Jude Quinn (IRFU)
 
A. Form - Head to head:
 
Munster v Edinburgh
 
25 Played 25
20 Wins 5
5 Losses 20
0 Draws 0
55 Tries 36
35 Conversions 26
66 Penalties 44
1 Drop Goals 3
546 Points 373
25 Avg. Age 25
 
B. Last season:
 
Saturday 1 September 2012, 20:00, Murrayfield
Edinburgh Rugby 18 - 23 Munster Rugby
 
Saturday 9 February 2013, 19:45, Musgrave Park
Munster Rugby 30 - 3 Edinburgh Rugby
 
C. Teams:
 
1. Munster     
 
15 Denis Hurley
14 Ronan O'Mahony
13 Casey Laulala
12 Ivan Dineen
11 Johne Murphy
10 Ian Keatley
9 Duncan Williams
 
1 James Cronin
2 Mike Sherry
3 Stephen Archer
4 Dave Foley
5 Donncha O’Callaghan
6 Dave O'Callaghan
7 Sean Dougall
8 James Coughlan (C)
 
Replacements:
Damien Varley,
Dave Kilcoyne,
John Ryan,
Billy Holland,
Tommy O’Donnell,
Cathal Sheridan,
JJ Hanrahan,
Cian Bohane.
 
2. Edinburgh  
 
15 Greig Tonks
14 Dougie Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Lee Jones
10 Piers Francis
9 Sean Kennedy
 
1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 WP Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Izak van der Westhuizen
6 Sean Cox (c)
7 Roddy Grant
8 David Denton
 
Substitutes:
16 Aleki Lutui,
17 Geoff Cross,
18 Lewis Niven,
19 Ollie Atkins,
20 Hamish Watson,
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,
22 Harry Leonard,
23 Jack Cuthbert

tigertattie wrote:potential for Munster Compliance and Burgh catch them on the back foot?

Not for the first game of the season I don’t think, especially with all the talk of this being a new Edinburgh team keen to make up for the mistakes of last year.

profitius wrote:George Carlin, what do Scottish people make of Edinburgh? The contrast between them and Glasgow is fairly big!

Prof - there are a lot of Scottish posters on here and they will all give you a different view.
 
Those with a long memory of the Celtic league will well remember that Glasgow were frequently the whipping boys circa 2007 to 2009 and Edinburgh fans used to look forward to derby matches for the availability of decent beer, premium quality fish & chips and a guaranteed 3 points at the end of the day. As you say though, times have changed.
 
If you ask me, Edinburgh is a rugby-mad city that recently has suffered from bad luck and very poor coaching. Whilst it is true that Edinburgh were competitive under Andy Robinson (finished second in the league in 2008/9 under his charge), it is commonly received wisdom that the Scotland job came along at the right time as he had taken the team as far as he could. Robinson was (is) an exceptional forwards coach, an average backs coach and a worse-than-average selector of player combinations.
 
The years following AR's departure (2009-2011 under Moffat and 2011-2013 under Bradley) will in retrospect be seen as the wilderness years for Edinburgh and demonstated that a young team with a shedload of talent needs discipline, good management and a game plan which everyone believes in. If the head coach cannot provide that, then one is fecked. Neither Moffat nor Bradley were able to do that and the most frequent justified criticism of Edinburgh since 2009 was that it did not seem as though the team had a strategy they were working to.
 
Edinburgh have/had other problems too. The SRU (still funding the teams in full and therefore interfering with their management) took a while to reduce their debt and bring each team (Glasgow and Edinburgh) budget in line with at least the Welsh regions, something which has now been done. If you read between the lines, the SRU also interfered a great deal with the signing of players and only now have begun to release their hold and realise that coaches are best placed to decide.
 
Edinburgh's run to the Heineken Cup semis a year ago actually served to prejudice the club's development as it bought Bradley another year by papering over what were undoubted cracks - their position in the bottom three of the Rabo a more accurate reflection of the basket case that they had become. The players were obviously unhappy.
 
There are undoubted gaps in Edinburgh's squad strength - most obviously in the centre and on the loose forward side and their recruitment policy has been baffling in recent years (e.g. buying a spectacular amount of dross, rejecting Sean Maitland as they felt they were well covered on the wing, signing Piers Francis at the very time Tom Heathcote was prevaricating about whether to stay at Bath, signing Ben Atiga without a clear view as to his fitness).
 
Thankfully, things are looking up for them. Solomons, at 63, commands respect and he knows how to build teams from nothing. Ulster fans I know were delighted with what he did for the team. It also cannot be denied that Edinburgh has some of Scotland's biggest talents - Visser, Laidlaw, Denton, Scott, Rennie, Ford, Gilchrist and Kennedy to name only some and the national side (with these players prominent) is starting to motor. This season? Solomons has said it will be a rebuilding process and getting good results along the way will be a bonus.
 
Cautiously optimistic, then. Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I predict the 1872 will be one win each this season!

tigertattie wrote:I predict the 1872 will be one win each this season!

I bloody well hope so.

Can't stand to lose both games again!!!

Sounds to me like Solomans is the right man for Edinburgh. He should help steady the ship this season and start rebuilding them then.

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?  

Finn Russell - RWC 2019 MVP

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

tigertattie wrote:Finn Russell - RWC 2019 Deputy-MVP

Fixed that for you, tattie, cos obvs you'd forgotten that a certain would be the real MVP

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

It doesn't surprise me. There's something in the water at Glasgow. I mean before Bennett had even laced his boots he was ahead of Nick De Luca in the Scotland pecking order, and now I'm told that Finn Russell is in the Scotland reckoning as well.

Leonard better stay away from the Rabo, by all accounts the less time you spend actually playing rugby the higher your stock rises. Whilst others can toil away in professional rugby, you need only show up to training sessions and show promise to make it all the way to the top.....

 

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

It doesn't surprise me. There's something in the water at Glasgow. I mean before Bennett had even laced his boots he was ahead of Nick De Luca in the Scotland pecking order, and now I'm told that Finn Russell is in the Scotland reckoning as well.

Leonard better stay away from the Rabo, by all accounts the less time you spend actually playing rugby the higher your stock rises. Whilst others can toil away in professional rugby, you need only show up to training sessions and show promise to make it all the way to the top.....

 

See? You *get* me.

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

It doesn't surprise me. There's something in the water at Glasgow. I mean before Bennett had even laced his boots he was ahead of Nick De Luca in the Scotland pecking order, and now I'm told that Finn Russell is in the Scotland reckoning as well.

Leonard better stay away from the Rabo, by all accounts the less time you spend actually playing rugby the higher your stock rises. Whilst others can toil away in professional rugby, you need only show up to training sessions and show promise to make it all the way to the top.....

 

See? You *get* me.

 

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

It doesn't surprise me. There's something in the water at Glasgow. I mean before Bennett had even laced his boots he was ahead of Nick De Luca in the Scotland pecking order, and now I'm told that Finn Russell is in the Scotland reckoning as well.

Leonard better stay away from the Rabo, by all accounts the less time you spend actually playing rugby the higher your stock rises. Whilst others can toil away in professional rugby, you need only show up to training sessions and show promise to make it all the way to the top.....

 

Not that difficult tbh, what with De Useless's endless series of brain-ferts  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

It doesn't surprise me. There's something in the water at Glasgow. I mean before Bennett had even laced his boots he was ahead of Nick De Luca in the Scotland pecking order, and now I'm told that Finn Russell is in the Scotland reckoning as well.

Leonard better stay away from the Rabo, by all accounts the less time you spend actually playing rugby the higher your stock rises. Whilst others can toil away in professional rugby, you need only show up to training sessions and show promise to make it all the way to the top.....

 

Not that difficult tbh, what with De Useless's endless series of brain-ferts  

He's just misunderstood.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Glasgow? We're a world class 10 away from being able to win the league.

I thought you had Finn Russell?   

You may mock, but even in his brief spell with the Glasgow coaching staff, I suspect that young Finn has surpassed his elders, Leonard and Hunter?!

It doesn't surprise me. There's something in the water at Glasgow. I mean before Bennett had even laced his boots he was ahead of Nick De Luca in the Scotland pecking order, and now I'm told that Finn Russell is in the Scotland reckoning as well.

Leonard better stay away from the Rabo, by all accounts the less time you spend actually playing rugby the higher your stock rises. Whilst others can toil away in professional rugby, you need only show up to training sessions and show promise to make it all the way to the top.....

 

Not that difficult tbh, what with De Useless's endless series of brain-ferts  

He's just misunderstood.

ASBO? ....

Munster team

James Cronin who started against Gloucester in the opening pre-season game in Thomond Park will make his first competitive start this Saturday against Edinburgh in the RaboDirect PRO12 in Musgrave Park.
Cronin who was promoted from the academy to a development contract this summer has two caps to his name after coming on against Leinster and Zebre in the latter stages of season 2012/13, and he joins Mike Sherry and Stephen Archer in the front row.

James Coughlan captains the squad which includes returning internationals Dave Kilcoyne and Tommy O’Donnell, both named in the replacements.

Munster:
15 Denis Hurley;
14 Ronan O'Mahony,
13 Casey Laulala,
12 Ivan Dineen,
11 Johne Murphy;
10 Ian Keatley,
9 Duncan Williams,
1 James Cronin,
2 Mike Sherry,
3 Stephen Archer;
4 Dave Foley,
5 Donncha O’Callaghan;
6 Dave O'Callaghan,
7 Sean Dougall,
8 James Coughlan Capt.

Replacements: Damien Varley, Dave Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Billy Holland, Tommy O’Donnell, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Cian Bohane.

Interesting team. I used to be a fan of Williams a few years back and at the time he was a better SH than Murray. Over the last few years (albeit with some bad injuries) he hasn't been very good so am even surprised he is still around.

Having said that he looked pretty good against LI the other night when he came on.

Looking forward to seeing JJ get some time as well.

Never heard of your 12 - what's he like?

Sin é wrote:Munster team

James Cronin who started against Gloucester in the opening pre-season game in Thomond Park will make his first competitive start this Saturday against Edinburgh in the RaboDirect PRO12 in Musgrave Park.
Cronin who was promoted from the academy to a development contract this summer has two caps to his name after coming on against Leinster and Zebre in the latter stages of season 2012/13, and he joins Mike Sherry and Stephen Archer in the front row.

James Coughlan captains the squad which includes returning internationals Dave Kilcoyne and Tommy O’Donnell, both named in the replacements.

Munster:
15 Denis Hurley;
14 Ronan O'Mahony,
13 Casey Laulala,
12 Ivan Dineen,
11 Johne Murphy;
10 Ian Keatley,
 9 Duncan Williams,
 1 James Cronin,
 2 Mike Sherry,  
 3 Stephen Archer;
 4 Dave Foley,
 5 Donncha O’Callaghan;
 6 Dave O'Callaghan,
 7 Sean Dougall,
 8 James Coughlan Capt.  

Replacements: Damien Varley, Dave Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Billy Holland, Tommy O’Donnell, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Cian Bohane.

Why is Stander not playing?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Never heard of your 12 - what's he like?

He has been around the fringes for a number of years. OC was his primary position. He is big, fast and a decent enough squad player. Has developed more under Penney than McGahan over the last year. Good player but that's about it.

fES, was this you cos they made you travel to Hawick? http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/damage-done-to-bridge-on-borders-railway-in-attack-1-3075575

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:fES, was this you cos they made you travel to Hawick? http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/damage-done-to-bridge-on-borders-railway-in-attack-1-3075575

I'll plead the 5th on this......

 

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:fES, was this you cos they made you travel to Hawick? http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/damage-done-to-bridge-on-borders-railway-in-attack-1-3075575

Police arrested the Edinburgh fans responsible for this. They were travelling in casual clothing to appear inconspicuous:

Edinburgh Rugby team to play Munster at Musgrave Park, Cork on Saturday 7 September (kick-off 7.15pm) – live on BBC ALBA


15 Greig Tonks
14 Dougie Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Lee Jones
10 Piers Francis
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 WP Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Izak van der Westhuizen
6 Sean Cox CAPTAIN
7 Roddy Grant
8 David Denton

Substitutes

16 Aleki Lutui, 17 Geoff Cross, 18 Lewis Niven, 19 Ollie Atkins, 20 Hamish Watson, 21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Jack Cuthbert

Unavailable through injury: Tom Brown (ankle), Steven Lawrie (back), Robin Hislop (leg), Gregor Hunter (knee), Greig Laidlaw (knee), Chris Leck (shoulder), Robert McApline (knee), Stuart McInally (knee), Ross Rennie (shoulder), Matt Scott (ankle), Tim Visser (foot), Nikki Walker (shoulder).

That's a proper guff bench. Starting XV isn't much better.

Disappointing to see Laidlaw out as we need a reliable kicker to stand any chance at Thomond. He gives us real direction too. Big game for Kennedy against his original home town team!

Very surprised to see VDV playing – sounded like a bad injury. Glad he’s there though to take it to Munster.

Atiga hasn't played any pre-season games so I really hope he's fit for this one.

The pack is consistent with the pre-season selections so I'm fairly comfortable on that front.

Great to see two young, Scots qualified and promising scrum halves in the match day squad. Both talented players, and I'm pleased Harry Leonard is there or there abouts.

Pretty solid and sensible selection really. Atiga's fitness and readiness my main concern, but I guess if you don't pick him, you slide NDL and Fife across and start Cuthbert, which isn't a hugely appealing alternative.

Atiga came off the bench against Newcastle, despite him being classed as injured.

And we all know what Atiga is like when he’s not fit and carrying an injury.
 

RDW_Scotland wrote:Atiga came off the bench against Newcastle, despite him being classed as injured.

And we all know what Atiga is like when he’s not fit and carrying an injury.
 

like an oil tanker turning in the forth!

You lot don't seem to hold out much hope of a win? Not sure you should be so negative. Despite the good pre-season friendlies it is quite possible that Munster will be abject as they were last year. We have yet to see that the Penney revolution will come to fruition. If you want some hope I refer to Munster/Scarlets in Musgrave park last year.

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Atiga came off the bench against Newcastle, despite him being classed as injured.

And we all know what Atiga is like when he’s not fit and carrying an injury.
 

like an oil tanker turning in the forth!

Funnily enough that is in Cuthbert's player bio on the Edinburgh website.

Who the feck is kicking now that our resident midget genius is injured? Francis?

I also hope that someone's told Sam Clyne that if he comes on, he's going to have to get his knees muddy and actually make at least one tackle.

Francis will kick. Last season he was as reliable as Glasgow's kickers but he's got a good strike on him and will hopefully get more consistent with more experience

Not too bothered about Francis kicking. He's ok, and I think the sharp service and pace of Kennedy will give us something different from Laidlaw's more considered approach.

Really pleased that Hidalgo-Clyne is getting involved. I have high hopes for him.

If he were at WalesGlasgow he'd be being talked up as the next George Gregan and suggested to play for Scotland in the AIs......

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not too bothered about Francis kicking. He's ok, and I think the sharp service and pace of Kennedy will give us something different from Laidlaw's more considered approach.

Really pleased that Hidalgo-Clyne is getting involved. I have high hopes for him.

If he were at WalesGlasgow he'd be being talked up as the next George Gregan and suggested to play for Scotland in the AIs......

Errr, no, that was Kennedy last season - do keep up, man  

ME-109 wrote:You lot don't seem to hold out much hope of a win? Not sure you should be so negative. Despite the good pre-season friendlies it is quite possible that Munster will be abject as they were last year. We have yet to see that the Penney revolution will come to fruition. If you want some hope I refer to Munster/Scarlets in Musgrave park last year.

No, no, ME-109, you see there's 'abject' and then there's 'MFL-abject', which is a whole new level of abjectness

ME-109 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Never heard of your 12 - what's he like?

He has been around the fringes for a number of years. OC was his primary position. He is big, fast and a decent enough squad player. Has developed more under Penney than McGahan over the last year. Good player but that's about it.

Not too sure about Penney being better for his career than McGahan as he hardly played last year. I was surprised he is still with Munster and Danny Barnes was let go, though I think he was injured for most of last year.

RDW - he is the spit of Jean de Villiers (hopefully he will play like him!) - here is a try he scored against Ulster on his debut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFDjNBB9inw

Rennie, Laidlaw, Scott and Visser missing due to injury, ouch.

Hopefully they can get this injury bad luck out the system early.

Pack looks ok, not particularly impressive but should be able to hold it's own. Backs don't look terrible but inside-centre is a serious issue when Scott is absent.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not too bothered about Francis kicking. He's ok, and I think the sharp service and pace of Kennedy will give us something different from Laidlaw's more considered approach.

Really pleased that Hidalgo-Clyne is getting involved. I have high hopes for him.

If he were at WalesGlasgow he'd be being talked up as the next George Gregan and suggested to play for Scotland in the AIs......

Errr, no, that was Kennedy last season - do keep up, man  

Ah, but that was last season. I find that each new season tends to bring with it a new "best young player ever and should play for Scotland" in the Glasgow squad.

Lee Jones AND Ben Atiga!!!! How can we lose

I see Tom Heathcote has been overlooked by Bath for tomorrow's opening game in favour of George Ford and Henson in reserve. Hopefully this isn't going to be the trend otherwise the SRU should get him to Edinburgh if at all possible.
In other news, Newcastle halfbacks; Godman & Blair

Sin é wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Never heard of your 12 - what's he like?

He has been around the fringes for a number of years. OC was his primary position. He is big, fast and a decent enough squad player. Has developed more under Penney than McGahan over the last year. Good player but that's about it.

Not too sure about Penney being better for his career than McGahan as he hardly played last year. I was surprised he is still with Munster and Danny Barnes was let go, though I think he was injured for most of last year.

RDW - he is the spit of Jean de Villiers (hopefully he will play like him!) - here is a try he scored against Ulster on his debut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFDjNBB9inw

I didn't think McGahan had much time for him, while Penney has found some use for him at inside centre and started playing him a bit more towards the end of last year. As for Barnes not sure what happened there

MacKnocked-on wrote:
In other news, Newcastle halfbacks; Godman & Blair  

Saw that.

One is the most capped ever player in his position for his country, a British & Irish Lion, hammer of Toulouse and an IRB International Player of the Year nominee. The other could not run a bath and has been so abjectly awful in some games I've wanted to remove my own arm just so that I had something to throw at the television. Who could possibly be whom?

So the Geordies are trying the yin and yang approach.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You lot don't seem to hold out much hope of a win? Not sure you should be so negative. Despite the good pre-season friendlies it is quite possible that Munster will be abject as they were last year. We have yet to see that the Penney revolution will come to fruition. If you want some hope I refer to Munster/Scarlets in Musgrave park last year.

No, no, ME-109, you see there's 'abject' and then there's 'MFL-abject', which is a whole new level of abjectness

MFL?

Metrosexual Festival Luvvies, don't you know?!

This represents a chance for Edinburgh though, Munster are in a transition phase and I think their first team could come good- but the depth isn't particularly great. They have a fair number of good prospects in that team, long-term development definitely the priority but they are still potentially vulnerable. Whereas Edinburgh just haven't been particularly great, full stop, for a while but there is clearly some talent there. I guess it's just whether having a guy like Solomons in there will get the likes of Denton to pull their fingers out at last. This is an interesting game. It's very difficult to call. Munster by 3... but wouldn't be surprised if it just swung the other way.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Metrosexual Festival Luvvies, don't you know?!

how gauche of me

Munster missing are POM, POC, O'Dea, Jones, Stander, Murray, Zebo, Botha, Conway and Donn Ryan.


I'm looking forward to the match. It should be interesting to see how the front row goes. I think Munsters bench will be the deciding factor in the match.

That's Edinburgh just announced that the big saffer loosehead blaauw has arrived today. He's straight into being 24th man and will travel to Munster tomorrow!

Laidlaw is out for a month. Baws.

ME-109 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Metrosexual Festival Luvvies, don't you know?!

how gauche of me

Indeed