Munster v Edinburgh, 7 September

Welcome to the new season, Munster and Edinburgh fans.
 
Here we go, then:
 
Saturday 7th September 2013
Kick off: 19:15
Musgrave Park, Cork
Live on TG4/BBC Heedrumhodrum
 
Referee: Marius Mitrea (FIR, 18th competition game)
Assistant Referees: S Gallagher, P Haycock (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eugene Ryan (IRFU)
TMO: Jude Quinn (IRFU)
 
A. Form - Head to head:
 
Munster v Edinburgh
 
25 Played 25
20 Wins 5
5 Losses 20
0 Draws 0
55 Tries 36
35 Conversions 26
66 Penalties 44
1 Drop Goals 3
546 Points 373
25 Avg. Age 25
 
B. Last season:
 
Saturday 1 September 2012, 20:00, Murrayfield
Edinburgh Rugby 18 - 23 Munster Rugby
 
Saturday 9 February 2013, 19:45, Musgrave Park
Munster Rugby 30 - 3 Edinburgh Rugby
 
C. Teams:
 
1. Munster     
 
15 Denis Hurley
14 Ronan O'Mahony
13 Casey Laulala
12 Ivan Dineen
11 Johne Murphy
10 Ian Keatley
9 Duncan Williams
 
1 James Cronin
2 Mike Sherry
3 Stephen Archer
4 Dave Foley
5 Donncha O’Callaghan
6 Dave O'Callaghan
7 Sean Dougall
8 James Coughlan (C)
 
Replacements:
Damien Varley,
Dave Kilcoyne,
John Ryan,
Billy Holland,
Tommy O’Donnell,
Cathal Sheridan,
JJ Hanrahan,
Cian Bohane.
 
2. Edinburgh  
 
15 Greig Tonks
14 Dougie Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Lee Jones
10 Piers Francis
9 Sean Kennedy
 
1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 WP Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Izak van der Westhuizen
6 Sean Cox (c)
7 Roddy Grant
8 David Denton
 
Substitutes:
16 Aleki Lutui,
17 Geoff Cross,
18 Lewis Niven,
19 Ollie Atkins,
20 Hamish Watson,
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,
22 Harry Leonard,
23 Jack Cuthbert

Is the game on BBC "furra linee"?

tigertattie wrote:Is the game on BBC "furra linee"?

Yes, it will be shown on TG4 and BBC Tcheuchter Gobbledeygook.

A. Form - Head to head:

Munster v Edinburgh

1 Drop Goals 3

there is some light then?

We can win this!

Jeez they are some depressing stats...

Apart from losing BJ Botha to what could be a long term injury, Munster have had a good preseason (v Gloucester & v London Irish), winning both games and scoring 8 tries (4 in each game).

Possible team against Edinburgh.

1. James Cronin
2. Mike Sherry
3. Stephen Archer
4. DOC
5. Ian Nagle
6. CJ Stander
7. Sean Dougall
8. James Coughlan (c)
9. Cathal Sheridan
10. Ian Keatley
11. Ronan O'Mahony
12. Ivan Dineen
13. Casey Lauala
14. Johne Murphy
15. Denis Hurley

I'm already thinking damage limitation here. Starting at Thomond is not what we needed.

The positive for us is that our defence has been good pre-season, but we haven't scored a try in two pre-season outings whereas Munster have scored 8. We'll do well to get anything from this fixture I think.

I suspect the Edinburgh team will be similar to the one put out in the last 2 friendlies, on the basis that there were minimal changes between the two games. Recent injuries will deprive us of Matt Scott, Visser and probably VDV and Tom Brown, adding to the list of the long term injured (Ross Rennie etc). Will be interesting to see whether he moves Cox back to the 2nd row or keeps him at blind side where he has performed strongly in pre-season (whether you think he should be playing there or not).

I reckon it will be something along the lines of

1 Dickinson
2 Ford
3 Nel
4 Gilchrist
5 Atkins
6 Cox
7 Grant
8 Denton
9 Laidlaw
10 Francis
11 Jones
12 De Luca
13 Fife
14 Cuthbert
15 Tonks

The thought of those wingers makes me want to cry, but not a bad team apart from that.

It will be tough for Edinburgh (the stats show that to be very much the case!) but it would be fantastic if we could somehow get the win. Ultimately I would be please with a LBP and strong performance – that is more than what we usually get away to Munster.

Like all the big teams though it is best to play them at the start of the season so we’re not likely to have a better chance of a win.

My guess – Munster 21, Edinburgh 16

Sin é wrote:Apart from losing BJ Botha to what could be a long term injury, Munster have had a good preseason (v Gloucester & v London Irish), winning both games and scoring 8 tries (4 in each game).

Possible team against Edinburgh.

1. James Cronin
2. Mike Sherry
3. Stephen Archer
4. DOC
5. Ian Nagle
6. CJ Stander
7. Sean Dougall
8. James Coughlan (c)
9. Cathal Sheridan
10. Ian Keatley
11. Ronan O'Mahony
12. Ivan Dineen
13. Casey Lauala
14. Johne Murphy
15. Denis Hurley

Sin - I don't have much visibility about a lot of these guys.

Whom should Edinburgh be looking out for on pre-season form?

I only saw highlights of gloucester match so going on comments from various blogs/munsterfans.

That team selection is based on developing the squad further, not on the best players. I didn't include JJ Hanrahan (10) (who isn't in that team) who from all accounts, seems to have been fairly sensational - scoring 2 tries and ended up top point scorer even though he didn't start any games.

CJ Stander seems to have been fairly standout as well (is huge and very mobile) with a nose for the tryline. (He scored one as well). Casey seems to be in very good form as well.

Oh, and Ronan O'Mahony (winger) scored a hatrick in his first start for Munster!

Edit: it wasn't his first start. He played against Zebre & the Dragons end of last season (and scored 1 try)!

Is James Cronin any relation to Jerry Cronin? Just out of interest....

Artful_Dodger wrote:Is James Cronin any relation to Jerry Cronin?  Just out of interest....

No, I don't think so. Jerry Cronin's father played for Munster, so I'm sure they would mention that in James' bio. if that was the case.

By the way, where is jerry Cronin these days?

Well I'm back at "work" (on the forum) after some "time off". By "time off" I mean being a slave around the house for Mrs Radge, not in the good way I might add... my birthday is not 'til November.

To be honest our preseason seems to have gone better than I expected. Losing Scott was a bit of a bummer, especially since NDL has been drafted into the 12 jersey, where he covers the position as effectively as a pick axe made of jelly. I also hear he was making friends with the time keepers in the sin bin against Newcastle

Starting against Munster is a bit of a crud deal, but I reckon we'll be competitive in the tight. It's in the backs we'll be likely exposed badly. Especially if Jones and Cuthbert take to the wings

Any idea on how bad Grant, VDV or even Rennie's injuries are and when we can expect them back? With 2 of our specialist 7s getting duffed up and Rambo thinking he is a hooker our list of viable flankers is getting pretty thin.

It basically leaves us with a choice between Watson or Basilia at 7. My preference would be Watson. For starters he's a specialist 7, but I also don't much like the "balance" of having Cox at 6 and Basilia at 7. From the brief highlights I saw, Cox is performing very nicely at 6, and I saw a storming run from him against Newcastle. I suspect we'll see him start the season in that position, and with Denton at 8, we'll need an out and out 7 at openside. Watson was playing well towards the end of last season, and I'm not too worried about him starting.

Rennie out until October, Scott 6 weeks, Visser until after Munster at least, no word on those injured at the weekend yet.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Rennie out until October, Scott 6 weeks, Visser until after Munster at least, no word on those injured at the weekend yet.

 3 names that Edinburgh cannot afford to be without. Prozac being the 4th.

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Rennie out until October, Scott 6 weeks, Visser until after Munster at least, no word on those injured at the weekend yet.

 3 names that Edinburgh cannot afford to be without. Prozac being the 4th.

No worries on the Prozac front here. The Edinburgh bandanas secretly emit Prozac directly into the bloodstream.

It's true though, other than Denton those are the key three players for Edinburgh. Without them our attack doesn't really function, as we need Rennie's continuity skills, Scott's creativity and Visser's finishing. The replacement, Watson, Fife and Cuthbert sadly aren't in the same league (yet.....).

I saw Dozer Denton tw@tting that he and Claire Balding share the same haircut

That's a long running joke ASBO - there are some pictures where he looks very much like her!

I'd have backed Claire Balding to carry the ball better than Denton last season, that's for sure.

Would you tackle her??

1. James Cronin
2. Mike Sherry
3. Stephen Archer
4. DOC
5. Ian Nagle
6. CJ Stander
7. Niall Ronan
8. James Coughlan (c)
9. Cathal Sheridan
10. Ian Keatley
11. Andrew Conway
12. Cian Bohane
13. Casey Lauala
14. Ronan O'Mahony
15. Denis Hurley

This is probably what I'd go with for Saturday. I wasn't at the Gloucester game so I'm only basing it on the L. Irish game.

Standouts in that game for me were Cronin, CJ Stander, JJ Hanrahan, Cian Bohane and Ronan O'Mahony.

John Ryan was very poor I thought and the backrow in general struggled to impose themselves on the game until they were replaced by the 3 guys I listed in the team above.

Bohane and O'Mahony really impressed me. Both looked very dangerous throughout. Special mention to Hanrahan though, he came off the bench and completely ran the show, setting up and scoring tries in the process.

I would hope that the pack can impose itself a bit better than last weekend, I think the subs helped a lot in this regard. The handling and execution was poor in the first half but really improved in the second half. One very encouraging thing throughout was that there was no side of the side-to-side crabbing that's blighted Munster's attack in recent seasons. It was all very direct and once the passes started to stick it proved to be very effective too.

Can't wait for the season to finally start again!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd have backed Claire Balding to carry the ball better than Denton last season, that's for sure.

Would you tackle her??

Not with yours  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd have backed Claire Balding to carry the ball better than Denton last season, that's for sure.

Would you tackle her??

Not with yours  

I can gladly concede that I don't have the appropriate equipment for Claire Balding.....

I don't know who she is, but you can borrow the expression "if I had a garden full of mickeys I wouldn't let her look over the wall" It's one of my favourites.

Sin é wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Is James Cronin any relation to Jerry Cronin?  Just out of interest....

No, I don't think so. Jerry Cronin's father played for Munster, so I'm sure they would mention that in James' bio. if that was the case.

By the way, where is jerry Cronin these days?

English Championship last I heard.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I don't know who she is, but you can borrow the expression "if I had a garden full of mickeys I wouldn't let her look over the wall" It's one of my favourites.

 
What does this mean? It sure sounds wonderful , but why?
I was impressed by the MFL's mother superior, sorry head coach, when he said the first step to being a winning team is to make the opposition respect you. In that sense Munster is a perfect opening game; you're not expected to get anything out of it so if you can man up and go toe to toe with them for 80 minutes (but not in a Riverdance way) then you've achieved something and can build on it. I've got a feeling that the MFL may surprise us on Saturday, especially if Claire has a decent game at no.8.
Now an understrength Cardiff at home is a tricky opening fixture; lose that and the doubts will overwhelm you.

I presume the new Edinburgh coach will need time to rebuild them into a more competitive team. Looking at the difference between Glasgow and Edinburgh now is not pretty if you're in charge of running Edinburgh.


Munster are after a good pre season with plenty of competition throughout the squad. They should win this one handy.


I'd love to see Hanrahan start for Munster but he'll come on as sub at least.

How are Munster going to allocate game time this season between Keatley and Hanrahan? Will it be a genuine share or will JJ only get on if Munster have a points cushion?

jimbopip wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I don't know who she is, but you can borrow the expression "if I had a garden full of mickeys I wouldn't let her look over the wall" It's one of my favourites.

 
What does this mean? It sure sounds wonderful , but why?

Ha. I don't know who yerwoman is and you don't know what bit of you your mickey is.

Basicaly It means the same as "I wouldn't touch her with yours"

How will the Munster team lining up on Saturday differ from the one that will likely come to Murrayfield for the first round of the HK?

Other than Matt Scott, Visser and Rennie (fingers crossed) most of the players on Satruday are likely to feature.

We've got some new signings coming in soon, but I suspect it will be too early to expect much of an impact from them by the first HK game.

George Carlin wrote:How are Munster going to allocate game time this season between Keatley and Hanrahan? Will it be a genuine share or will JJ only get on if Munster have a points cushion?

It seems Mannix (Munster backs coach) is very conscience of putting too much pressure on a young talent (he having suffered from it himself), so it will be a gradual introduction similar to how Penney introduced Dan Carter & Tyler Bleyendaal more recently to Canterbury. Carter played 10 for Canterbury but 12 for Crusaders in his early days. Penney has said at Q&As they are going to take their time brining JJ through, so for the next 6 months or so, I'd say Keatley will be first choice Heineken Cup and JJ will get plenty of gametime in the Rabo starting at 10.

JJ wouldn't need to have a points cushion - he is very confident. Slotted some great kicks for the U20s when under enormous pressure.

Sin é wrote:

George Carlin wrote:How are Munster going to allocate game time this season between Keatley and Hanrahan? Will it be a genuine share or will JJ only get on if Munster have a points cushion?

It seems Mannix (Munster backs coach) is very conscience of putting too much pressure on a young talent (he having suffered from it himself), so it will be a gradual introduction similar to how Penney introduced Dan Carter & Tyler Bleyendaal more recently to Canterbury. Carter played 10 for Canterbury but 12 for Crusaders in his early days. Penney has said at Q&As they are going to take their time brining JJ through, so for the next 6 months or so, I'd say Keatley will be first choice Heineken Cup and JJ will get plenty of gametime in the Rabo starting at 10.

JJ wouldn't need to have a points cushion - he is very confident. Slotted some great kicks for the U20s when under enormous pressure.

Quite an enviable position for Ireland to be in with Madigan, Jackson and JJ vying for the shirt. Like buses.

RDW_Scotland wrote:How will the Munster team lining up on Saturday differ from the one that will likely come to Murrayfield for the first round of the HK?

Other than Matt Scott, Visser and Rennie (fingers crossed) most of the players on Satruday are likely to feature.

We've got some new signings coming in soon, but I suspect it will be too early to expect much of an impact from them by the first HK game.

Heineken Cup team

1. Kilcoyne
2. Sherry
3. Botha
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. POM
7. TOD
8. Coughlan
9. Murray
10. Keatley
11. Zebo
12. Casey Laulala
13. Earls
14. Conway
15. Jones

16. Cronin, 17 Varley, 18 Archer, 19 DOC, 20 Stander, 21 sheridan, JJ, Hurley

The ones in bold haven't played yet this season or are injured like BJ Botha.

George Carlin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

George Carlin wrote:How are Munster going to allocate game time this season between Keatley and Hanrahan? Will it be a genuine share or will JJ only get on if Munster have a points cushion?

It seems Mannix (Munster backs coach) is very conscience of putting too much pressure on a young talent (he having suffered from it himself), so it will be a gradual introduction similar to how Penney introduced Dan Carter & Tyler Bleyendaal more recently to Canterbury. Carter played 10 for Canterbury but 12 for Crusaders in his early days. Penney has said at Q&As they are going to take their time brining JJ through, so for the next 6 months or so, I'd say Keatley will be first choice Heineken Cup and JJ will get plenty of gametime in the Rabo starting at 10.

JJ wouldn't need to have a points cushion - he is very confident. Slotted some great kicks for the U20s when under enormous pressure.

Quite an enviable position for Ireland to be in with Madigan, Jackson and JJ vying for the shirt. Like buses.

Yea, its amazing that for years we didn't have anyone then all of a sudden we are beginning to have a load of options coming up. I think JJ could be the real deal though - seems to have everything in his game - just needs experience and consistency of performance.

Jaysus. If Van Den Heever can't make the HC bench? Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysus. If Van Den Heever can't make the HC bench? Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.

He will be just off the plane, so I can't see him getting much of a look in just yet, particularly when we have so many options. He ain't Doug Howlett (whose first game for Munster was against Clermont down there!).

Sin é wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

George Carlin wrote:How are Munster going to allocate game time this season between Keatley and Hanrahan? Will it be a genuine share or will JJ only get on if Munster have a points cushion?

It seems Mannix (Munster backs coach) is very conscience of putting too much pressure on a young talent (he having suffered from it himself), so it will be a gradual introduction similar to how Penney introduced Dan Carter & Tyler Bleyendaal more recently to Canterbury. Carter played 10 for Canterbury but 12 for Crusaders in his early days. Penney has said at Q&As they are going to take their time brining JJ through, so for the next 6 months or so, I'd say Keatley will be first choice Heineken Cup and JJ will get plenty of gametime in the Rabo starting at 10.

JJ wouldn't need to have a points cushion - he is very confident. Slotted some great kicks for the U20s when under enormous pressure.

Quite an enviable position for Ireland to be in with Madigan, Jackson and JJ vying for the shirt. Like buses.

Yea, its amazing that for years we didn't have anyone then all of a sudden we are beginning to have a load of options coming up. I think JJ could be the real deal though - seems to have everything in his game - just needs experience and consistency of performance.

Just one of those kids being around five years ago and you've have to wonder how many caps Grandpappy O'Gara would have got. No talent around until Sexton and he gets 128 of them. That's mad, Ted.

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysus. If Van Den Heever can't make the HC bench? Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.

He will be just off the plane, so I can't see him getting much of a look in just yet, particularly when we have so many options. He ain't Doug Howlett (whose first game for Munster was against Clermont down there!).

I suppose I was thinking HC in general rather than the 1st game in particular. The currie cup runs up past the 1st 2 rounds of the HC.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysus. If Van Den Heever can't make the HC bench? Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.

He will be just off the plane, so I can't see him getting much of a look in just yet, particularly when we have so many options. He ain't Doug Howlett (whose first game for Munster was against Clermont down there!).

I suppose I was thinking HC in general rather than the 1st game in particular. The currie cup runs up past the 1st 2 rounds of the HC.

Yea, their final round in the Currie Cup are the same weekend as the Heineken Cup. Depends on whether WP make the playoffs (which is highly likely since they won it last year).

I can't see Penney parachuting him into the team ahead of everyone else who have been doing so well to date. I'd say he will have to bide his time for a while - which is no harm really as he will be at the end of a long season.

There is a lot of competition in the backs (but that can all change very quickly with a few injuries).

Sin é wrote:

George Carlin wrote:How are Munster going to allocate game time this season between Keatley and Hanrahan? Will it be a genuine share or will JJ only get on if Munster have a points cushion?

It seems Mannix (Munster backs coach) is very conscience of putting too much pressure on a young talent (he having suffered from it himself), so it will be a gradual introduction similar to how Penney introduced Dan Carter & Tyler Bleyendaal more recently to Canterbury. Carter played 10 for Canterbury but 12 for Crusaders in his early days. Penney has said at Q&As they are going to take their time brining JJ through, so for the next 6 months or so, I'd say Keatley will be first choice Heineken Cup and JJ will get plenty of gametime in the Rabo starting at 10.

JJ wouldn't need to have a points cushion - he is very confident. Slotted some great kicks for the U20s when under enormous pressure.

I heard that about Mannix before too.


Highlights of the London Irish game are up. JJ came on as sub, scored a try, made two more and was involved in another. http://www.munsterrugby.ie/matchdaytv/?play=media&id=16229
Munster are doing the right thing by not rushing JJ. Thats good player management. Keatley is the number 1 choice for Munster starting this season but its only a matter of how long before JJ becomes the number 1. Thats not to put Keatley down but Hanrahan is a superb talent and will IMO be an Ireland regular in a few seasons. One area of weakness I have seen is his goal kicking but he has plenty of time to improve that.

Prof - where do you see Hanrahan in relation to Jackson, Madigan and Sexton? In terms of talent and potential.

Also Stander seems to have gotten even bigger for this season. He is apparently 1.88m and 114kg! Huge.

Hanrahan's got Madigan like potential, the sky's the limit. I would also back him to fulfill it more then Madigan (not based on that much really before peopel get angry). Missed the second half of the game due to another match but great stuff I was told.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Prof - where do you see Hanrahan in relation to Jackson, Madigan and Sexton?  In terms of talent and potential.

He has excellent passing and kicking from hand. He is faster than most 10s, with a good step. Defensively he is solid. He is also a creative player and able to read games and can play in the center too. Mentally he has that cockiness you'd associate with the Kerry Gaelic football side. Having said all that, he hasn't played many games for Munster and some players don't live up to the hype but it does look like theres substance behind the JJ hype. In relation to your question I'll put my neck on the block and say that I think he is the best of the lot. Ireland is lucky to have so many quality 10s coming through nowadays!


Stander looks massive alright. He must have been doing some amount of weights! It all points to him being an 8 in the long term. I would hope he doesn't lose much mobility by bulking up.

I can't wait to see more from JJ.  I loved watching him play for the U20s but I haven't seen him for a while now.  I remember thinking he was some talent though.

Coughlan is probably the guy challenged the most by Stander.  I genuinely think Stander is the best back row of the lot at Munster.  One of Coughlan, O'Donnell and O'Mahony are going to be replaced soon enough, and it won't be O'Mahony.  Stander is really too good to leave out.

I'm not sure that Edinburgh fans will want to read the official Rabo preview for this game...:

"Edinburgh Rugby have managed only one victory in their last seven round one fixtures: 22-21 over Cardiff Blues at the City Stadium in 2009. The Scotsmen's solo win away from home since last December remains 9-7 at Zebre on 29 March.

Edinburgh have won just one game in their last 18 visits to Ireland since 2009: 24-23 at Connacht last December.

Munster have won their last five encounters with Edinburgh in all competitions, whilst the Scotsmen's most recent triumph in Munster was at Thomond Park in October 2006 - their only previous win at Musgrave Park being way back in April 2004."

George Carlin, what do Scottish people make of Edinburgh? The contrast between them and Glasgow is fairly big!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can't wait to see more from JJ.  I loved watching him play for the U20s but I haven't seen him for a while now.  I remember thinking he was some talent though.
.

Penney said in an article today that JJ will be given plenty of starts this season.

George Carlin wrote:I'm not sure that Edinburgh fans will want to read the official Rabo preview for this game...:

"Edinburgh Rugby have managed only one victory in their last seven round one fixtures: 22-21 over Cardiff Blues at the City Stadium in 2009. The Scotsmen's solo win away from home since last December remains 9-7 at Zebre on 29 March.

Edinburgh have won just one game in their last 18 visits to Ireland since 2009: 24-23 at Connacht last December.

Munster have won their last five encounters with Edinburgh in all competitions, whilst the Scotsmen's most recent triumph in Munster was at Thomond Park in October 2006 - their only previous win at Musgrave Park being way back in April 2004."

Grim.

potential for Munster Compliance and Burgh catch them on the back foot?