Can Richie McCaw be considered a true great without NH club rugby?

If Richie McCaw never plays NH club rugby can he still be considered a great of the game?

Players like Brad Thorn tipped off a grand career by casually collecting the NHs most prized club rugby. A true legend.

If Richie never taps this dimension will there have been something missing? For example he may never learn Richard Cockerill's true feelings on the new scrum engagement laws and how vital the NH clubs would have been had they been consulted.

No, he can't.

The epitome of Rugby Union is to play in every competition in the world you can't stake a claim for being a great unless you have won every trophy in the book.  

Only when he wins the Top League in Japan can be truly be considered great, at the moment he is mediocre.

Didn't he play for Perpignan for awhile a few seasons ago? I'm sure he was in their team when Tigers played them in the H cup.

He's welcome to join Ulster if he feels his CV is lacking

tigerleghorn wrote:Didn't he play for Perpignan for awhile a few seasons ago? I'm sure he was in their team when Tigers played them in the H cup.

No Dan Carter played for Perpignan. It would be an easy mistake for you, they are both famous All Blacks.

Brad Thorne got lucky with Leinster. He joined a team at the crest of a wave who were already favorites to lift the trophy. He made a contribution but chances are Leinster would have won it anyway. He will only ever be considered a blow in a Leinster.

Brad Thorn on the other hand won every major trophy. Still doesn't come close to what Richie has achieved over his career. That's how good he is.

maestegmafia wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:Didn't he play for Perpignan for awhile a few seasons ago? I'm sure he was in their team when Tigers played them in the H cup.

No Dan Carter played for Perpignan. It would be an easy mistake for you, they are both famous All Blacks.

Oh dear, that's what happens when you try to read after a heavy mid week libation. Sorry guys.

GunsGerms wrote:Brad Thorne got lucky with Leinster. He joined a team at the crest of a wave who were already favorites to lift the trophy. He made a contribution but chances are Leinster would have won it anyway. He will only ever be considered a blow in a Leinster.

Sorry but I don't agree, he made a huge difference to Leinster and I don't believe they'd have beaten Clermont without him - he was incredible in that game. Leinster's scrum and breakdown hasn't been the same since he left, he may have been only there short term but he filled the huge hole left by Hines another player who was key for Leinster.

You are only saying that because Leinster hammered Ulster with a record score in the final. Leinster already had a winning record v Clermont in the knockout stages. Leinster defo needed a second row after Hines left but I dont think it would have made a massive difference who we had there as long as they were anyway decent. I would have much preferred to just hold onto Hines than offer a mercenary a cheap medal to be honest.

No I'm saying that because Leinster tight 5 wasn't good enough without Hines to win the Heino, something Joe Schmidt knew which is why he bought Thorn.

Thorn was the best player on the pitch against Clermont, they simply couldn't move him at the breakdown.

You are being incredibly arrogant and disrespectful to one or the greatest players ever to play the game and one who made a huge contribution to your team in a short time.

Leinster got lucky with Thorn, not the other way round. That's not to say Leinster weren't a fantastic side already but the tight 5 was a big Achilles heel without him.

GloriousEmpire wrote:If Richie McCaw never plays NH club rugby can he still be considered a great of the game?

Players like Brad Thorn tipped off a grand career by casually collecting the NHs most prized club rugby. A true legend.

If Richie never taps this dimension will there have been something missing? For example he may never learn Richard Cockerill's true feelings on the new scrum engagement laws and how vital the NH clubs would have been had they been consulted.

100% agree. Not a great until he pulls on the Newcastle Falcons shirt...soon...please.

Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

rodders wrote:No I'm saying that because Leinster tight 5 wasn't good enough without Hines to win the Heino, something Joe Schmidt knew which is why he bought Thorn.

Thorn was the best player on the pitch against Clermont, they simply couldn't move him at the breakdown.

You are being incredibly arrogant and disrespectful to one or the greatest players ever to play the game and one who made a huge contribution to your team in a short time.

Leinster got lucky with Thorn, not the other way round. That's not to say Leinster weren't a fantastic side already but the tight 5 was a big Achilles heel without him.

Waffle. We won the Heino with Hines we would have done it again if Hines was there. Hines contributed so much more to Leinster than Thorne.

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

Damn, I think that's called checkmate.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:No I'm saying that because Leinster tight 5 wasn't good enough without Hines to win the Heino, something Joe Schmidt knew which is why he bought Thorn.

Thorn was the best player on the pitch against Clermont, they simply couldn't move him at the breakdown.

You are being incredibly arrogant and disrespectful to one or the greatest players ever to play the game and one who made a huge contribution to your team in a short time.

Leinster got lucky with Thorn, not the other way round. That's not to say Leinster weren't a fantastic side already but the tight 5 was a big Achilles heel without him.

Waffle. We won the Heino with Hines we would have done it again if Hines was there. Hines contributed so much more to Leinster than Thorne.

You haven't read what I have said. In the absence of Hines - with no Thorn, I am saying that I don't think Leinster would have won the Heiniken cup. Thorn is one of the very few players who could have replaced Hines, he did a huge job for Leinster particularly against Clermont.

This isn't about Thorn v Hines, it is about the fact that you are not acknowledging that Leinster's tight 5 wasn't great post Hines and that Thorn bolstered it temporarily to a point were they could compete with the best in Europe, something Hines also did and something they haven't been able to do since because it takes a special player to have that sort of impact.

You say anyone could have done what Thorn did and I am saying they couldn't, he's a special player, not your bog standard second row.

I already said we needed to bring in a second row after Hines left. Never thought it should have been Thorne though. To be perfectly honest Im much more happy with Mike McCarthy and I reckon we would have won with him too. Just because we needed a second row doesnt mean Thorne was the only one that would have won us the cup. Far from it.

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

are you suggesting that michalak and haskell are NH heroes

GunsGerms wrote:I already said we needed to bring in a second row after Hines left. Never thought it should have been Thorne though. To be perfectly honest Im much more happy with Mike McCarthy and I reckon we would have won with him too. Just because we needed a second row doesnt mean Thorne was the only one that would have won us the cup. Far from it.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree. There are good players, average players and great players. If you think McCarthy is on par with Thorn I am gobsmacked.

whocares wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

are you suggesting that michalak and haskell are NH heroes

after that forward pass.... he'll be able to drink for free for life in my book!!!!

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Brad Thorne got lucky with Leinster. He joined a team at the crest of a wave who were already favorites to lift the trophy. He made a contribution but chances are Leinster would have won it anyway. He will only ever be considered a blow in a Leinster.

Sorry but I don't agree, he made a huge difference to Leinster and I don't believe they'd have beaten Clermont without him - he was incredible in that game. Leinster's scrum and breakdown hasn't been the same since he left, he may have been only there short term but he filled the huge hole left by Hines another player who was key for Leinster.  

GG is right. And Leinster had the beating of Clermont for a while, that year being one of those years. Clermont only just broke the duck. Though you're right in suggesting Thorn hasn't been replaced. It's not often you can replace a man like Brad Thorn.

I'm not denying Leinster's record against Clermont, but in that match they were under ferocious pressure at the scrum and breakdown, particularly at the end.

It is just conjecture but I don't see how any observer to that game could deny the role Thorn played in withstanding that pressure and coming away with the win.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be a position for McCaw at the Dragons in the near future, after the Opsreys poach Faletau, I Jones and Evans. He'd love the celtic league. He can get away with murder at the breakdown more often than usual due to the substandard refs that are available. Just ask the Irish .

rodders wrote:I'm not denying Leinster's record against Clermont, but in that match they were under ferocious pressure at the scrum and breakdown, particularly at the end.

It is just conjecture but I don't see how any observer to that game could deny the role Thorn played in withstanding that pressure and coming away with the win.

In fairness we had that game sewn up with 10 minutes to go and let Clermont back into it by conceding a succession of stupid penalties,Rob Kearney was immense that game as was Leo Cullen who took all sorts of batterings in the last few phases but kept getting up and looking for more and both BoD and D'Arcy were rock solid in defense as usual.

You can say we wouldn't have won that game without Thorn but we wouldn't have won it without 4 mentioned above either.Any tight game will have a number of players who were crucial to the result.

GunsGerms wrote:Brad Thorne got lucky with Leinster. He joined a team at the crest of a wave who were already favorites to lift the trophy. He made a contribution but chances are Leinster would have won it anyway. He will only ever be considered a blow in a Leinster.

just like how BOD would have won it anyway....hindsight seems to prevail in your rugby GG.

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Brad Thorne got lucky with Leinster. He joined a team at the crest of a wave who were already favorites to lift the trophy. He made a contribution but chances are Leinster would have won it anyway. He will only ever be considered a blow in a Leinster.

just like how BOD would have won it anyway....hindsight seems to prevail in your rugby GG.

I dont understand your post. Please make sense if you want a response. Why are you so obsessed with BOD?

Cant help you if you dont understand. Some people ..well...are just like that I suppose. For me..rugby is about what actually happened...not what would or could have happened.

Taylorman wrote:Cant help you if you dont understand. Some people ..well...are just like that I suppose. For me..rugby is about what actually happened...not what would or could have happened.

but you dont even know what happened because you didnt watch any of the matches so what are you on about? Whats your point and what does it have to do with BOD?

whocares wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

are you suggesting that michalak and haskell are NH heroes

Seems like you are forgetting a certain Mr D. Cipriani. If you add his man of the match against Ireland in 2008 with his SH club rugby experience, you can surely see that he's the best NH player of his any generation?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rodders wrote:I'm not denying Leinster's record against Clermont, but in that match they were under ferocious pressure at the scrum and breakdown, particularly at the end.

It is just conjecture but I don't see how any observer to that game could deny the role Thorn played in withstanding that pressure and coming away with the win.

In fairness we had that game sewn up with 10 minutes to go and let Clermont back into it by conceding a succession of stupid penalties,Rob Kearney was immense that game as was Leo Cullen who took all sorts of batterings in the last few phases but kept getting up and looking for more and both BoD and D'Arcy were rock solid in defense as usual.

You can say we wouldn't have won that game without Thorn but we wouldn't have won it without 4 mentioned above either.Any tight game will have a number of players who were crucial to the result.

That's what I did say, and I also didn't not say that you wouldn't have won without the other guys, I just didn't say it. I didn't mean that Leinster won exclusively because of Thorn but they certainly didn't win exclusive of him either.

I heard Thorn got death threats on twitter when he replaced Hines and people thought he was taking too much of a leadership role.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I heard Thorn got death threats on twitter when he replaced Hines and people thought he was taking too much of a leadership role.

Did Kiwis urine and moan about it for months too?

No but we had a laugh about you guys writing 20 pages about it.  

Well we learned how to do that from watching the Kiwi reaction to Wayne Barnes.

Good to see you learned something from us.  

As long us you can appreciate how hypocritical it is to poke fun at us when your own countrymen are guilty of similar acts then I feel we've achieved something here today

Making fun of people who whinge wherever they're from is my take home.

whocares wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

are you suggesting that michalak and haskell are NH heroes

I think he actually meant Andy Goode... T14, HC, AP, SR (all the major comps).

Add RWC and a State of Origin and the NRL. Brad Thorn has won everything except the Currie Cup. He's still young enough so don't discount him.

Richie McCaw's still better mind.

yappysnap wrote:

whocares wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

are you suggesting that michalak and haskell are NH heroes

I think he actually meant Andy Goode... T14, HC, AP, SR (all the major comps).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdcoYIWp6wU

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

James Haskell by any chance!!   

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Making fun of people who whinge wherever they're from is my take home.

I'll bet you were constantly having a go at your fellow Kiwis during that sad time in your history  

Plenty of histrionics there just like there were in 2011. You can't reach everyone but you can play your part and try and spread peace and goodwill to as many as possible.

Don't ask what you can do for the whingers, ask what the whingers can do for you.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Plenty of histrionics there just like there were in 2011. You can't reach everyone but you can play your part and try and spread peace and goodwill to as many as possible.

Don't ask what you can do for the whingers, ask what the whingers can do for you.

That's a lot of waffle just to avoid my point.

AB losses hurt but I don't have any problem acknowledging when a team has beat NZ. I wouldn't term it a sad part of our history.

I can't be an apologist for every plonker but I can do my part to call people out wherever they're from when they use tired excuses like the ref, cheating, rustiness, etc.

Have a nice weekend and sorry if I said anything to offend.  

miaow wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

whocares wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Can any NH player be considered a true great without SH club rugby?

are you suggesting that michalak and haskell are NH heroes

I think he actually meant Andy Goode... T14, HC, AP, SR (all the major comps).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdcoYIWp6wU

Legend.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:AB losses hurt but I don't have any problem acknowledging when a team has beat NZ. I wouldn't term it a sad part of our history.

I can't be an apologist for every plonker but I can do my part to call people out wherever they're from when they use tired excuses like the ref, cheating, rustiness, etc.

Have a nice weekend and sorry if I said anything to offend.  

No offense taken,I completely agree with you calling out people who use those type of excuses.I'm just sick of people having a go at Irish people for the sins of a tiny minority and especially as the people doing the calling out are conspicuous by their abscence when their own countrymen do the same thing.I'm fairly certain the Saint wasn't criticising the people giving Alain Rolland death threats anything like the same hassle he's giving the Irish now.

I can sense the frustration on various threads and we all have those moments where poles divide and trenches are dug.

It's easy to get wound up by a few but generally we're all better off being exposed to other people's opinions. I have lumbago and am high on painkillers so maybe I can't be riled in my present state. I could well do with a drink though.

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Cant help you if you dont understand. Some people ..well...are just like that I suppose. For me..rugby is about what actually happened...not what would or could have happened.

but you dont even know what happened because you didnt watch any of the matches so what are you on about? Whats your point and what does it have to do with BOD?

Didnt need to watch them. What I do know is- Leinster asked him and paid him to play. Leinster won.

Just like Gatland asked BOD not to play. And they won.

Your views on both these occasions are about what would have happened if A) Thorn hadnt played and B) BOD had played- you seem to know those results better than the ones that actually happened. Rugby must be a good thing in your mind GG- a plethora of unplayed matches.