Lewis is more overrated than Tyson?

I think Lewis is overrated here. There is another thread about Tyson being overrated but hes not overrated compared to Lewis.Tyson was past it when he fought Lewis. People put too much emphasis on that result. Lewis would try and jab away at him but Tyson at his best was fast and destructive. He would attack Lewis out of the blocks and knock him out. I dont know much about boxings early history but I think Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Liston would beat Lewis. I dont think he is up there with the best in history.

Worms. Can of. Open.

Winchester I'm guessing you think Wider or Fury would KO Lewis?

Im guessing you think the Klitschkos would beat everyone in history.

Don't see how you can really say that, his resume exceeds Tysons by miles, could even argue that lesser wins such as Tua and Mercer were better then Tysons best wins.

I can't see any possible way in which Lewis' resume exceeds Tyson's by miles, DaveVDK, if indeed it does exceed it at all. Nothing more than a slither between the pair of them for my money. Would be genuinely interested to hear your argument for Lewis being so far ahead though, fella.

Lewis was not in his prime when he fought Tyson either.

my old chestnut is that Lewis's two loses against not the best opponents may have been due to under rating his opponents or lack of focus, but that to me knocks him down the list. When you can't get a ciggy paper between many in the two ten, these lapses matter to me.

88Chris05 wrote:I can't see any possible way in which Lewis' resume exceeds Tyson's by miles, DaveVDK, if indeed it does exceed it at all. Nothing more than a slither between the pair of them for my money. Would be genuinely interested to hear your argument for Lewis being so far ahead though, fella.

Tyson, however brilliant he was, doesn't really have that many quality wins, his best was probably either a light heavyweight in Spinks or Tony Tucker. Lewis has Vitali (whichever way you look at it, he grinded out a result) a nailed on atg Heavy, even wins such as Mercer, Morrison and Tua are on a par with some of Tysons better wins imo. Also I don't really buy that Holyfield was completely shot when they fought like many seem too think.

Ever seen Biggs, Holmes, Tucker, Thomas, Williams fight Mate......I have.

winchester wrote:I think Lewis is overrated here. There is another thread about Tyson being overrated but hes not overrated compared to Lewis.Tyson was past it when he fought Lewis. People put too much emphasis on that result. Lewis would try and jab away at him but Tyson at his best was fast and destructive. He would attack Lewis out of the blocks and knock him out. I dont know much about boxings early history but I think Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Liston would beat Lewis. I dont think he is up there with the best in history.

So you have him at around fifth in the list of top heavies, seems about in line with a lot of others.

Personally wouldn't have Frazier beating him but would say the others probably would.

Whilst I would agree Holyfield was not completely shot when Lewis fought him it has to be remembered Evander went on to have a life of death series with John Ruiz pretty much straight after so there were obviously some levels of regression there because one has to think Evander anywhere near his prime would handle Ruiz with something approaching ease.

To be honest there is not too much between either fighter for me. As Truss has said would not particularly argue the likes of Tucker, Tubbs, Thomas and Ruddock represent a much worst set of wins than the likes of Mercer, Holyfield, Vitali and Tua, if indeed they do. Also has to be remembered Tyson did not have any of the close calls or unsatisfactory finishes that are the Mercer and Vitali fights for Lewis. I personally have Lewis perhaps a slot or two above Tyson but genuinely think they are in that bunch outside the top seven or eight alongside the likes of Frazier where the gap between them is wafer thin.

DaveVDK wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I can't see any possible way in which Lewis' resume exceeds Tyson's by miles, DaveVDK, if indeed it does exceed it at all. Nothing more than a slither between the pair of them for my money. Would be genuinely interested to hear your argument for Lewis being so far ahead though, fella.

Tyson, however brilliant he was, doesn't really have that many quality wins, his best was probably either a light heavyweight in Spinks or Tony Tucker. Lewis has Vitali (whichever way you look at it, he grinded out a result) a nailed on atg Heavy, even wins such as Mercer, Morrison and Tua are on a par with some of Tysons better wins imo. Also I don't really buy that Holyfield was completely shot when they fought like many seem too think.

Firstly, was Vitali an ATG at that time? He took the fight at 2 weeks notice, did brilliantly, but was he at his best at this point in his carreer. Secondly, Holmes is an ATG without any doubt. You may argue he was getting past his best when he fought Tyson, but he'd only been beaten by Spinks before that. If you include Vitali as an ATG when under prepared and still a little green, you have to include a seasoned pro in Holmes.

few points here i think

i still do not get how the Vitali victory was an unsatisfactory finish to a fight. A valid punch opened a cut which was then targeted accurately for the rest of the fight until it became an issue. There is little to no difference to this and repetedly punching someone on the ropes until the they cannot defend themselves, or if they have been hit to a point of being senseless, barring maybe the exended timeframe to open the cut

also as you rightly said, Vitali took the fight on 2 weeks notice but so did Lewis, and you can bet your bottom dollar that Vitali was training with one eye on Lewis, and Lennox was not training with one eye on Vitali

I struggle to see who was the better boxer in their pomp between Tyson and Lewis but i do believe the points alluded to above are given more weight than they should be.

I think there is a distinction between a stoppage/manner of victory being valid and unsatisfactory. The stoppage and win over Vitali was certainly valid as Lewis saw the cut and worked it until the ref had little choice but to stop it. However still think it can be considered unsatisfactory. The fight was still in the balance, Vitali had a points lead but Lewis was definitely coming back into it and at 38 year old there is always the question how he would last down the stretch. Whilst it is frequently the right decision personally think stoppages on cuts are always pretty unsatisfactory endings to fights.

I see your point rowley, but how would you distinguish between the manner of that stoppage and, for example, someone being hit on the temple whilst on the attack by a retreating boxer, and dazed and then the retreating boxer taking advantage and pressing back the attack until the fight was stopped?

Though i do admit that a cuts stoppage never sits as well as other TKO's

I think being punched insensible is a little different. As a fighter it is your intention to knock someone out. No fighter really goes in there looking to cut someone. Accepted it takes skill to take advantage once a cut opens, and Lewis certainly worked it to force the stoppage but it is the arbitrary nature of it that makes it a little less satisfactory than the other means of winning a fight.

Think people are scraping the barrel with lewis - Vitali........

Bit like saying Witherspoon was a great win for Larry !!!!!!!

Just as a side note I keep reading that Tyson's opponents were average.........May I suggest that Tubbs, Tucker, Spinks, Biggs were not only highly acclaimed amateurs...Two world champions, one olympian and two olympic champions.. but were very skilled professionals.....

Ignorance on here can be staggering at times..and more respect is needed.

Fair Point Rowley, i guess we can agree to disagree and i dont want to hijack thread too much

Wouldn't worry about it Rick, it is a Lewis thread, there will be another along in another five minutes

true enough mate  

I think the Vitali win is a good one, sure he was not the fighter he would go on to be, and the ending was anti-climatic, but it was a pretty good win nonetheless. The whole "Vitali was training for a year with one eye on Lewis anyway" doesnt fly with me though, even if he was, that means he then overtrained... Cant have it both ways. Pity, with better skin, he would have had Lewis out of there I think.

As for Lewis being overrated... maybe Liston probably takes him, as does Ali, Foreman would catch him probably. I think Vitali is ultimately to tough for him, plus he lost to Rahman and reportedly admitted to ducking Sanders (I cant find the quote but I have heard this ad nauseum).

He did a phenomenal job of catching fighters when they werent quite peaked, though. But I dont think he is overrated, never heard of him being Ranked #1.

Why was Vitali a good win ??.........Vitali is and always been a durable plodder ...(A modern day Chuvalo).......Lewis fought like a zombie and was widely hammered by everyone on HBo as I recall and other media......

Sure Vitali has had success in the sport but let's not forget he's just an average plodder in a turgid era..

Sure Truss... Whatever you say Truss... Your word is law Truss...

Good rebuttal..

World Amateur silver medallist suggests more than just average plodder and is a better amateur achievement than Tubbs or Tucker whose amateur pedigree you were quick to laud.

Basically he just wasn't born in America and operating in the 80's.....

Bit pedantic, but it seems you're crediting Tyson for beating ruddock rowley.. Surely Lewis did a far more convincing job.

I've defended tyson's record on the other thread truss, but you're pushing it to big up the likes of Biggs and Williams. They weren't dross but Biggs lost every time he stepped up in class and Williams pretty much did. They're a footnote on his ledger not a highlight. And yes I have seen a fair bit of them both.

Vitali has lost six rounds in his last nine fights. Thats not plodding. Has the second highest KO % in HW history. Never been floored...

Tucker couldn't fight in Moscow...boycotted..

Look Tucker beat Douglas.............Vitali beat any with that pedigree.........

Tubbs won the world cup........US champion and boycotted 80 trials.........

Also fought a much lauded fight with Teofilio Stevenson...

beat Greg Page also someone Holmes ducked........

Why isn't it plodding....Kingy...Who's he fought ??...........Page shutout Tillis and Coetzee......let's all have a party..........

Fair point Milky, although Tyson did get there first. To be fair I should have added Ruddock to Lewis' better wins ledger as Ruddock was still very much seen as a live opponent and most had it pegged as a 50-50 going in if memory served so very good win and performance for Lewis.

Vitali was a young hungry boxer, with a gerat chin and a good dig and reach, and who has won things at every level he has (and had at that point) fought at

Lewis was past his best (highlighted by the retirement) and his powers were waning, and still won, therefore this is a good win

Rowley wrote:Fair point Milky, although Tyson did get there first. To be fair I should have added Ruddock to Lewis' better wins ledger as Ruddock was still very much seen as a live opponent and most had it pegged as a 50-50 going in if memory served so very good win and performance for Lewis.

If you add to Lewis ledger........Then what do two wins previously for Tyson over him mean..........

I personally think that Vitali is a very good Heavyweight in any era, Truss. Not necessarily a world champion in the shark tank division of the sixties / seventies, but he'd be amongst the best in the world all the same, even in that golden era. Certainly good enough to get favourable results against the Nortons, Folleys, Terrells etc.

I think it was the captain who summed up Lewis' win over Vitali nicely when he said that it is, on paper, maybe Lewis' best 'result', but due to the unconvincing nature of it and the fact that, at the time, Vitali was wet behind the ears at the highest level it can't really be classed as his finest victory or career moment.

For me, a legitimate win can still carry an element of good fortune to it, which puts me in the minority as most seem to think that the two aspects are mutually exclusive. As Rowley rightly says, when a fighter plans how he's going to win a fight, you'll have to go a long way down the list before you get to the 'stop them on a cut' option.

Will stress that, in my opinion, Lewis would have gone on to stop Vitali late on had the doctors somehow found a way to patch up Vitali's eye to the extent that he could continue in any case, but that doesn't mean that Lennox wasn't a shade lucky when all things are considered.

Anyway, getting back to the point of the article, I don't particularly think that Lewis is overrated in any great measure. Nobody really has him down as a contender for the all-time Heavyweight number one spot - in fact, I can't remember all that many people sticking him in their top three. The majority have him in that chasing pack, most of whom are interchangeable, any anywhere from about 7th to 10th seems about right for me.

Its the same old Truss argument here, championing the opponents of his favored fighter and rubbishing the ones of the mirrored counterpart. Its a shame that you believe Tysons wins were better than Lewis' Truss, the fact in my mind that Tyson never went back and put right the wrongs where he beats Douglas, doesn't get DQ'ed and beats Holyfield - affects his ATG standing. He went on too long. If he'd retired before facing Lewis we'd look at his career a lot more favorably, but we can't just say that the 4 years Tyson was dominant should be the only marker we use for his ATG standing and not use that for everyone else. When assessing Ali, we look at his entire career. When we look at Marciano we take into account the poor era he dominated, when we assess Tyson, we have to look at his whole career. When he was "shot" he was losing to Lewis, Williams and McBride. When Lewis was "shot" he beat Vitali. We HAVE to assess everyone on their entire careers, if we cherry pick the times we assess people it becomes very messy indeed.

I'm not rubbishing lennox...........Just that his biggest wins were against faded greats.....

I'd pick Bruno to destroy both the Klits.............Would pick an in fit Page and Witherspoon too also........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not rubbishing lennox...........Just that his biggest wins were against faded greats.....

Isn't this generally the case with most boxers, when one seemingly unbeatable boxer gets beat they are past their best.

Biggs, Spinks and Tucker were all unbeaten...............

Based on?? Hoping Vitali Klitschko tears his rotator cuff again while giving Bruno a hiding?

88Chris05 wrote:
I think it was the captain who summed up Lewis' win over Vitali nicely when he said that it is, on paper, maybe Lewis' best 'result', but due to the unconvincing nature of it and the fact that, at the time, Vitali was wet behind the ears at the highest level it can't really be classed as his finest victory or career moment.

I like that. It definitely has a ring of truth about it for me. You can't base the greatness of the victory on what a boxer he beat became. It has to be on what he was at the time and wet behind the ears sums it up for me.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Biggs, Spinks and Tucker were all unbeaten...............

So was Michael Grant.

Though I'm sure you can find a way to rubbish that win also.

kingraf wrote:Based on?? Hoping Vitali Klitschko tears his rotator cuff again while giving Bruno a hiding?

Watch Bruno fight mate..........Corrie sanders didn't tear his rotator cuff..

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Biggs, Spinks and Tucker were all unbeaten...............

So was Michael Grant.

Though I'm sure you can find a way to rubbish that win also.

Go away...Michael grant WTF

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Biggs, Spinks and Tucker were all unbeaten...............

So was Michael Grant.

Though I'm sure you can find a way to rubbish that win also.

Go away...Michael grant WTF

Predictable.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Biggs, Spinks and Tucker were all unbeaten...............

So was Michael Grant.

Though I'm sure you can find a way to rubbish that win also.

Go away...Michael grant WTF

Predictable.

Not interested..you know sack all..

bhb001 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:
I think it was the captain who summed up Lewis' win over Vitali nicely when he said that it is, on paper, maybe Lewis' best 'result', but due to the unconvincing nature of it and the fact that, at the time, Vitali was wet behind the ears at the highest level it can't really be classed as his finest victory or career moment.

I like that. It definitely has a ring of truth about it for me. You can't base the greatness of the victory on what a boxer he beat became. It has to be on what he was at the time and wet behind the ears sums it up for me.

Think the fact Lennox quit asap.........Tends to say it all bhb..

Any chance we can stop before we start with the insults. Out of interest and in the vague hope of getting us back playing nice truss, where would you rank Lewis and Tyson respectively. I personally find the gap between them pretty narrow and struggle to imagine anyone can split them so clearly as to be prepared to argue so vehemently either way but am always willing to be convinced.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Biggs, Spinks and Tucker were all unbeaten...............

Biggs was also a 15 fight novice fighting a unified world champ with double the amount of fights under his belt. He then went on to lose the majority of his fights for the rest of his career, take VK over that chump any day of the week.

Rowley wrote:Any chance we can stop before we start with the insults. Out of interest and in the vague hope of getting us back playing nice truss, where would you rank Lewis and Tyson respectively. I personally find the gap between them pretty narrow and struggle to imagine anyone can split them so clearly as to be prepared to argue so vehemently either way but am always willing to be convinced.

Michael Grant...come on Rowley..What do you expect??

I put down Biggs and spinks..........He puts down Michael grant..