"Punching" above their weight

Every now and again we get a strange phenomenon in rugby and that is that a player that looks above average and decent in his club or regional team somehow looks far better when given the opportunity to shine for the national team. They may remain unfashionable at club/regional level but somehow their performances when given a chance for their country seem to elevate them beyond their usual level of performance. There are many reasons for this but let me know what players you think are like this - For me Rhys Gill is my latest example of a decent club player who, when I have watched him for Wales has performed exceptionally well. I was amazed he didn't feature more after playing a starring role against Ireland in Dublin in 2012. These players make life difficult for coaches when they produce these performances

All the Welsh players.

GunsGerms wrote:All the Welsh players.

I like that Guns - In all honesty one of the things that has really angered me over the past 10 years is when my Anglo friends always say to me - The problem with us (England) against the Irish is that they always raise their game against us. It fecking makes my blood boil. Don't they think that just for one milli-second Ireland just might have had a better team until recently and maybe that is why they won something like 7/8.

I actually think the welsh team are underperforming at the moment but that's for another thread

i guess it's like all employees...day to day job gets a bit samey you know, but then when you get called up to something special, you pull out all the stops as it's a higher level and the quality of those around you is also better.

e.g. people banging on about warbs and jamie roberts for instance, club level a bit shoite, then certainly against england, upped their game. and no doubt will up their game once again for the lions.

I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Luke Marshall really looked the part against Scotland.

I think Tony Buckley saved most of his best performances for the Ireland Jersey, was imense against New Zealand a while back.

Submachine wrote:Luke Marshall really looked the part against Scotland.

I think Tony Buckley saved most of his best performances for the Ireland Jersey, was imense against New Zealand a while back.

To be fair so did Michalak

Rugby Fan wrote:I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

Statistically, in attack, you are wrong. And given how little we use our wings and the fact he shouldn't be playing there, he has IMBO played very well in attack for England. (Also, I disagree that he lacks pace, or techniques)

Positioning in defence, not so much, agreed

And yes, he is excellent at Quins

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

Statistically, in attack, you are wrong. And given how little we use our wings and the fact he shouldn't be playing there, he has IMBO played very well in attack for England. (Also, I disagree that he lacks pace, or techniques)

Positioning in defence, not so much, agreed

And yes, he is excellent at Quins

Statistically? Really? Statistically the 2 Japanese wingers are the best to ever have played the game!

Brown is a poor international standard winger, he is beaten for pace and tackles poorly not to mention doesn't realise he has a touchline.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

Statistically, in attack, you are wrong. And given how little we use our wings and the fact he shouldn't be playing there, he has IMBO played very well in attack for England. (Also, I disagree that he lacks pace, or techniques)

Positioning in defence, not so much, agreed

And yes, he is excellent at Quins

Statistically? Really? Statistically the 2 Japanese wingers are the best to ever have played the game!

Brown is a poor international standard winger, he is beaten for pace and tackles poorly not to mention doesn't realise he has a touchline.

Statistically those Japanese wingers didn't generally have their seasons against South Africa, New Zealand then all the 6N teams, sooooooooooo not quite the same then. You don't provide any evidence to your 2 following statements and though I hardly think he is a winger and agree he doesn't use the touchline as a defender in the middle 50m like he should I think he did bloody well at International level and you are just plain wrong. This is not the only time you have held an opinion about the standard of an International rugby player against the evidence either, and one of the ones you previously criticised is going on a Lions tour and has every chance of starting all 3 tests on form.

I have nothing against you Blues and like you and think you are generally a good poster but your opinion stated as facts in this case is something I am not going to agree with and I'm happy to provide evidence for my viewpoint

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

Statistically, in attack, you are wrong. And given how little we use our wings and the fact he shouldn't be playing there, he has IMBO played very well in attack for England. (Also, I disagree that he lacks pace, or techniques)

Positioning in defence, not so much, agreed

And yes, he is excellent at Quins

Statistically? Really? Statistically the 2 Japanese wingers are the best to ever have played the game!

Brown is a poor international standard winger, he is beaten for pace and tackles poorly not to mention doesn't realise he has a touchline.

Statistically those Japanese wingers didn't generally have their seasons against South Africa, New Zealand then all the 6N teams, sooooooooooo not quite the same then. You don't provide any evidence to your 2 following statements and though I hardly think he is a winger and agree he doesn't use the touchline as a defender in the middle 50m like he should I think he did bloody well at International level and you are just plain wrong. This is not the only time you have held an opinion about the standard of an International rugby player against the evidence either, and one of the ones you previously criticised is going on a Lions tour and has every chance of starting all 3 tests on form.

I have nothing against you Blues and like you and think you are generally a good poster but your opinion stated as facts in this case is something I am not going to agree with and I'm happy to provide evidence for my viewpoint

Don't get so emotional about an playerbecause of his nationality, just see him for what he is, a very good club FB who isn't wuite cutting it on the wing at test level. I havn't said he won't make a good test FB at some point (although I prefer Foden) but the fact is he isn't performing anywhere near his club form, and glaring weaknesses of his game are exploited (as so many others are at international level)

For interest sake though stats that prove he's a very good attacking threat at test level, are they the ball carried and men beaten stats by any chance? Because not having their no.8 and using the wingers to drop deep to receive kicks wouldn't have anything to do with metres carried, or the abbrassive teritory dominated game where teams kick long to England more often? Isolated chasers are easier to beat than defences.

Who is this guy I don't rate who will start all 3 tests too?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I used to think Mike Brown was decent for Quins, but not Test material. He's looked far better than I expected in an England shirt.

Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

Statistically, in attack, you are wrong. And given how little we use our wings and the fact he shouldn't be playing there, he has IMBO played very well in attack for England. (Also, I disagree that he lacks pace, or techniques)

Positioning in defence, not so much, agreed

And yes, he is excellent at Quins

Statistically? Really? Statistically the 2 Japanese wingers are the best to ever have played the game!

Brown is a poor international standard winger, he is beaten for pace and tackles poorly not to mention doesn't realise he has a touchline.

Statistically those Japanese wingers didn't generally have their seasons against South Africa, New Zealand then all the 6N teams, sooooooooooo not quite the same then. You don't provide any evidence to your 2 following statements and though I hardly think he is a winger and agree he doesn't use the touchline as a defender in the middle 50m like he should I think he did bloody well at International level and you are just plain wrong. This is not the only time you have held an opinion about the standard of an International rugby player against the evidence either, and one of the ones you previously criticised is going on a Lions tour and has every chance of starting all 3 tests on form.

I have nothing against you Blues and like you and think you are generally a good poster but your opinion stated as facts in this case is something I am not going to agree with and I'm happy to provide evidence for my viewpoint

Don't get so emotional about an playerbecause of his nationality, just see him for what he is, a very good club FB who isn't wuite cutting it on the wing at test level. I havn't said he won't make a good test FB at some point (although I prefer Foden) but the fact is he isn't performing anywhere near his club form, and glaring weaknesses of his game are exploited (as so many others are at international level)

For interest sake though stats that prove he's a very good attacking threat at test level, are they the ball carried and men beaten stats by any chance? Because not having their no.8 and using the wingers to drop deep to receive kicks wouldn't have anything to do with metres carried, or the abbrassive teritory dominated game where teams kick long to England more often? Isolated chasers are easier to beat than defences.

Who is this guy I don't rate who will start all 3 tests too?

Is likely to, and that's Manu

Fair enough on the stats, though the fact that his attacking stats look much better than Goode's, who was the primary fullback says a lot

But then my nans attacking stats would be better than Goode's! He's a solid FB (better centre) but particularly unspectacular, he'll truck the ball back up into contact, he can kick well, and acts as a decent first receiver but apart from that he hasn't much about him.

For the record Manu impressed me a massive amount in SA last year, a one man recking crew and he and Robshaw kept England alive at times, after that tour I took back a lot of criticism I had of him, however he seems to have reverted back to where he was before the tour again, and is showing the lack of ability both going forward and defencively he did on that tour. He still struggles with the basic pass for some reason, and is technically poor a lot of the time, but he has been injured and has been in and out of a team who have offered little quality wide ball, Farell and Baritt could play inside an all time great back 3 and make them look average at times.

All that said he is one hell of a weapon in the lions armoury, and with the likes of Sexton and BOD around anything is possible, I personally cannot wait to see him with Sexton and Roberts inside him

What I don't want to see is Tuilagi and Cuthbert targetted hen playing together, that would be very easy to exploit, like taking candy from a baby

Halfpenny is pretty capable of making any last man tackles you want though

ChequeredJersey wrote:Halfpenny is pretty capable of making any last man tackles you want though

Aye but theres only so many times the kid can knock himself unconcsious before having to leave the field, with Cuthberts and Tuilagi's defence he'll be off 15 minutes in!

Mind you watching Folau, AAC, Mitchell and others recently it should be a try fest, none of them are looking defencively sound at the minute, Deans has one hell of a job to do to get them into some sort of effective system!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

I underestimated his contribution at Quins, so didn't expect him to step up at Test level. When played at full back, he impressed me. There's no way he's an international winger, but Lancaster's selection foibles postdated my change in opinion.

For all that I fancy I know a bit about rugby, I can't deny that sometimes I form unreasonable initial opinions about people for totally irrational reasons. I have a feeling that something in my constitution took against him because his name is "Mike Brown". He might just as well have been called "Bob Journeyman".

I was thinking about this the other day, when I read the following in a Telegraph Mathew Tait interview:

Tait, 27, has been upbraided by England coaches in the past for his hangdog appearance, his shambling gait, shoulders hunched. “It is probably how I have been perceived. I’ve been picked up for body language. It’s just the way I am, always have been, good mood or bad mood, that’s how I walk around, very much the same. I think that’s just me.”

When the stars are aligned, and everything's going your way, none of these things are negative traits. Another rugby player who always looked very hang dog to me is Stephen Larkham, an impression exacerbated by his scrumcap. Once you've decided he's a great player, this doesn't matter. If the bubble bursts, suddenly they look like faults.

You're not always aware that you are getting a first impression about a player, let alone why you are doing it. I'm ashamed to say it took me until the last Lions series to realize how good a player Adam Jones is.

I might find myself over rating a player for irrational reasons. I recall thinking Magnus Lund would be very handy for England and I wonder whether part of that was the idea "'Maguns Lund'? He' sounds like a viking, for chrissakes!". It probably helped that he was blond too, since that always helps a player stand out more when they might not deserve it. In truth, I'd never really seen Lund play much. On taking a proper look, I was underwhelmed.

I sometimes wonder whether James Simpson Daniel failed to impress England coaches because he went prematurely bald, and stopped looking youthfully exuberant. It's not a bad look for a nuggety player like Mike Tindall but sometimes you expect flashy players to look flashy too. All very ridiculous, but in situations where people are ultimately going with their gut on tight selections, perhaps these minor points end up mattering more than we think.

I sense I'm rambling.

GunsGerms wrote:All the Welsh players.

Exactly apart from a hand full of the welsh team who actually play more than 6 game for their region a year. E.g. Tipuric, adam jones, leigh halpfpenny always play good for their regions but some players like warburton, north and Toby Falateu never play as well . Not many of the Welsh players play to their full potential.
But then again a lot of international don't perform as well at club level.

Aye but theres only so many times the kid can knock himself unconcsious before having to leave the field, with Cuthberts and Tuilagi's defence he'll be off 15 minutes in!

+1

Twelvetrees had one of his best games all season v Scotland. Scored as many tries in that game as he did in the domestic season, looked a constant threat.

Corey Jane is that type of player for me. In 2010 when he came onto the scene in France many people questioned his place in the squad. He used his fend to score and though he never went on to become a prolific scorer for NZ, he set up tries and did what was asked of him. He will be sorely missed this year with his injury lay off.

EnglishReign wrote:Twelvetrees had one of his best games all season v Scotland. Scored as many tries in that game as he did in the domestic season, looked a constant threat.

He has looked better at creating tries for himself and others, generally more skilled than Tuilagi all season. Why did England drop him?

Could have proved good enough to go on the Lions tour should he have played more international games. Twelvetrees is certainly not over rated, though not really experienced or tested at international level as yet.

Rugby Fan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not sure what Brown your watching? At quins he is excellent, but in an England shirt he is particularly average, his techniques seems off, he lacks pace and he doesn't really offer much. Granted wing isn't his position, but still...

I underestimated his contribution at Quins, so didn't expect him to step up at Test level. When played at full back, he impressed me. There's no way he's an international winger, but Lancaster's selection foibles postdated my change in opinion.

For all that I fancy I know a bit about rugby, I can't deny that sometimes I form unreasonable initial opinions about people for totally irrational reasons. I have a feeling that something in my constitution took against him because his name is "Mike Brown". He might just as well have been called "Bob Journeyman".

I was thinking about this the other day, when I read the following in a Telegraph Mathew Tait interview:

Tait, 27, has been upbraided by England coaches in the past for his hangdog appearance, his shambling gait, shoulders hunched. “It is probably how I have been perceived. I’ve been picked up for body language. It’s just the way I am, always have been, good mood or bad mood, that’s how I walk around, very much the same. I think that’s just me.”

When the stars are aligned, and everything's going your way, none of these things are negative traits. Another rugby player who always looked very hang dog to me is Stephen Larkham, an impression exacerbated by his scrumcap. Once you've decided he's a great player, this doesn't matter. If the bubble bursts, suddenly they look like faults.

You're not always aware that you are getting a first impression about a player, let alone why you are doing it. I'm ashamed to say it took me until the last Lions series to realize how good a player Adam Jones is.

I might find myself over rating a player for irrational reasons. I recall thinking Magnus Lund would be very handy for England and I wonder whether part of that was the idea "'Maguns Lund'? He' sounds like a viking, for chrissakes!". It probably helped that he was blond too, since that always helps a player stand out more when they might not deserve it. In truth, I'd never really seen Lund play much. On taking a proper look, I was underwhelmed.

I sometimes wonder whether James Simpson Daniel failed to impress England coaches because he went prematurely bald, and stopped looking youthfully exuberant. It's not a bad look for a nuggety player like Mike Tindall but sometimes you expect flashy players to look flashy too. All very ridiculous, but in situations where people are ultimately going with their gut on tight selections, perhaps these minor points end up mattering more than we think.

I sense I'm rambling.

I like this. A nice summary of what I would anticipate were, very common occurrences when watching players.

I will offer my own confession here regarding a 606 mascot at present Matt Garvey. He's only played Saxons for England but when I watched him for LIrish and that Saxons game I was looking for reasons to really support the chap's cause for senior honours. Now I stand by the fact he has potential in the second row but having watched his last few games for LIrish he's been pretty poor at BS. Hopefully Bath and Gary Gold will bring out his potential more.

GunsGerms wrote:All the Welsh players.

That's no true as the Welsh team have reached the Semis of the RWC and retained the six nations championship this year.

They mostly look as though they are rather under performing in too many matches.

maestegmafia wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:All the Welsh players.

That's no true as the Welsh team have reached the Semis of the RWC and retained the six nations championship this year.

They mostly look as though they are rather under performing in too many matches.

I think what was meant was that they don't perfrom for club on a regular basis as they do on the int stage, this is very true of Warbs. When he does play for the Blue he looks a shadow of the player he is for Wales (or was, or could be), he was after all immensely fast tracked through the ranks the second Williams said he was retiring, he went from junior clubman to national captain in under 2 years, and off the back of his debut season on the int stage.

maestegmafia wrote:That's no true as the Welsh team have reached the Semis of the RWC and retained the six nations championship this year.

Maes, I think you've missed the point of the thread. It's about players who step up their performances at international level. You would need to argue instead that the Welsh players have done well for their regions.

Maesteg missing the point - I like it In fairnesss to some of the welsh players it must be hard trying to stand out in some poor regional outfits when your backs are to the wall or when you break the gain line and there is no support.

Another fella who seemed elevated at international level was Morgan Stoddard, he seemed to have kryptonite on board when he latterly played for Wales - Shame about his injuries

Jamie Roberts and Sam Warburton are two classic examples of players who have built their rep from certain performances for the national team while rarely if ever looking nearly as effective for their club. But then maybe that says more about the Blues than it does for the players themselves

England?

Amazing they finished second after the performances v Italy and Ireland.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:England?

Amazing they finished second after the performances v Italy and Ireland.

Hey! The performance in Ireland, given where it was and the conditions and the fact that they had just given you such a beating for 40 mins that even the decision to not play rugby in the second half couldn't lose them the match, was perfectly good thank you.

Italy, less so

t1000advancedprototype wrote:England?

Amazing they finished second after the performances v Italy and Ireland.

If you'd read the article you'd have seen this is about individual players, not teams as a whole. Of course if you fancy expanding the discussion in that direction I'm sure there's some way you could put it all into a poll.

Knowsit17 wrote:Jamie Roberts and Sam Warburton are two classic examples of players who have built their rep from certain performances for the national team while rarely if ever looking nearly as effective for their club. But then maybe that says more about the Blues than it does for the players themselves

Says a lot more about the coaching at regional level. If Warren Gatland was in charge of the Blues and Phil Davies in charge of Wales, we all know the exact opposite would be true.

Being a bit harsh here, lads. It must sometimes be difficult for any international player to "raise themselves" for a run of the mill Rabo/Aviva game e.g. Ay at Edinburgh in front of 4,000 folk in Murrayfield.
If we are being honest, we have all had days like that at work where we just can't be bothered and go through the motions, playing on the BBC Sport site for most of the day