Argentina 5th Best Team in the World?

By my calculation if Argentina beat France at home and England lose to Australia then Argentina will leap over both Wales and England and move into 5th spot.

This is probably not a likely scenario, but it is certainly possible. We know France can be fickle, Argentina solid and Australia tend to bounce back from a humiliating loss with real venom, whilst England are yet to be tested against quality opposition and may be complacent given their big win last week and the prospect of a "weak" Wallaby side...

It is some achievement by Argentina to even face this prospect in their first year sitting at the top table with the big kids. Well done to them!

Have you not been watching rugby before this year, AWOP?

Argentina have already been in a RWC semi-final, won 3rd place playoff. And they were one of the pool leaders in last year's RWC.

Why do you persist in belittling what they've already achieved by linking it with coming last in the 4N this year?

They're a much better team than that and have been for some time.

I didn't mention the RC here PH, just that they could go fifth on the weekend! Amazing stuff. It would certainly make the next RWC interesting...we could see a group like:

South Africa
Argentina
Wales
Samoa

Don't start this again./ apparently Wales are still a better team for some strange reason according to another thread

Still behind where they were after the 2007 wc though.

If Wales win a couple of games they could well be the 4th best side in the world, not bad for a side that were under threat of dropping out of the top 10 just over a year ago

Its the best Argie side there has been since 07 sure...but thats still only makes them on a par with the better 6 nations sides, and as you keep telling us AWOP thats something to be ashamed of not proud of

anotherworldofpain wrote:I didn't mention the RC here PH, just that they could go fifth on the weekend! Amazing stuff. It would certainly make the next RWC interesting...we could see a group like:

South Africa
Argentina
Wales
Samoa

You referenced the 4N/RC through your use of the phrase "their first year sitting at the top table with the big kids".

It's condescending and inaccurate to depict them as such. Argentina have done more than enough to date to warrant being treated on their own terms, without some patronising patting on the head for having joined the 4N - a tournament from which they were excluded/ignored by the SANZAR nations for quite some time. They've been ranked 4th in the world before, so I'm puzzled as to why you're creaming your Kiwi [independently neutral] cacks at the possibility that they might get 5th next weekend.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Still behind where they were after the 2007 wc though.

If Wales win a couple of games they could well be the 4th best side in the world, not bad for a side that were under threat of dropping out of the top 10 just over a year ago

Its the best Argie side there has been since 07 sure...but thats still only makes them on a par with the better 6 nations sides, and as you keep telling us AWOP thats something to be ashamed of not proud of

On a par with? Last count they'd just beaten the 6N grandslam champions, at home...

They'll need to beat 5 others if they're supposedly better. They'll probably lose to France. What will you say then?

At the end of 2007, Argentina held 3rd place in the rankings the highest they have achieved since rankings began:

http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2007-12-31/histranking.html

Yeah, post world cup the rankings can be a bit blipped up.

I think everyone here is forgetting Leinster?? Recent literature clearly places them in the top 5.

I would argue post RWC rankings are not misleading for Argentina. RWCs are the only time that Argentina have ever managed to get their side together for extended periods and actually develop a team. Even so their performances have been pretty damn good in the Pro era - and they don't deserve to be patronised.

Wales are better

thebluesmancometh wrote:Wales are better

You know that we have a long and healthy disagreement on this Bluesman, so I'd be greatful if you could pop over to the AI sweepstake thread and lend a word of support!

Funny how opinion quickly changes. Argentina were considered chumps and many expected them to lose all their games in the RC (they drew one in case you forgot) and when they were announced for some teams in the AI series many (not naming names because frankly I don't remember but I do remember numerous comments being made) their chances were downplayed because of their overall record (without any prior involvement in a meaningful tournament).

So not saying those on this thread who are saying Argentina are a good team were rubbishing them previously. But general opinion seems to have swung round after a competitive showing in the RC and ONE game in the AI series. Argentina are a work in progress but that's what makes them a frightening prospect. They are only going to get stronger. Their interplay and offloading was top notch stuff. Their general backline play has much room for improvement but there is the talent and the speed to become just as formidable as the reputation they have gained in the forwards. Good to see.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Funny how opinion quickly changes. Argentina were considered chumps and many expected them to lose all their games in the RC (they drew one in case you forgot) and when they were announced for some teams in the AI series many (not naming names because frankly I don't remember but I do remember numerous comments being made) their chances were downplayed because of their overall record (without any prior involvement in a meaningful tournament).

So not saying those on this thread who are saying Argentina are a good team were rubbishing them previously. But general opinion seems to have swung round after a competitive showing in the RC and ONE game in the AI series. Argentina are a work in progress but that's what makes them a frightening prospect. They are only going to get stronger. Their interplay and offloading was top notch stuff. Their general backline play has much room for improvement but there is the talent and the speed to become just as formidable as the reputation they have gained in the forwards. Good to see.

Yes I agree. I for one was expecting a strong Argentina to show up. I watched all their RC games and they might have had 2 or 3 wins. They are certainly not the 10 man rugby machine of a few years ago. I was far more surprised by the very poor Welsh performance that I was surprised by how well Argentina played.

I certainly don't think Argentina played well at all, and were capable of far more!!!

First half they werent very good but grew into a game that wales didn't show up for.

I actually think Argentina deserved to beat both SA and NZ in the RC with exceptional performances, but that was not an exceptional performance, their back play was poor and the only facet of play they were really strong at was the breakdown.

Ive given all the credit in the world to Argentina, throughout the RC (of which I seem to remember a lot of SH fans not happy with their inclusion, and had written them off) but Saturday sadly was about 2 key elements...

Argentinas time together previous, and

Wales poor club form showing on the international stage.

England will beat Oz AWOP, so your scenario will not come to pass

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Funny how opinion quickly changes. Argentina were considered chumps and many expected them to lose all their games in the RC (they drew one in case you forgot) and when they were announced for some teams in the AI series many (not naming names because frankly I don't remember but I do remember numerous comments being made) their chances were downplayed because of their overall record (without any prior involvement in a meaningful tournament).

So not saying those on this thread who are saying Argentina are a good team were rubbishing them previously. But general opinion seems to have swung round after a competitive showing in the RC and ONE game in the AI series. Argentina are a work in progress but that's what makes them a frightening prospect. They are only going to get stronger. Their interplay and offloading was top notch stuff. Their general backline play has much room for improvement but there is the talent and the speed to become just as formidable as the reputation they have gained in the forwards. Good to see.

Kia. I remember a variety of fans from different nationalities saying that Argentina would prove more than a match for the tri-nations teams, perhaps even beat them at home. They also said they'd get thrashed by SA and NZ. They did all of this apart from get the win. Some aired their concerns that Argentina would either be battle-hardened or burned out when it came to the AI's. The overall opinion of them hasn't changed. It's just AWOP and few more Kiwi's seem to think so. I said the following elsewhere; a few kiwi's are crying Argentina are disrespected (when that isn't the case). You seem to think they're now invincible to their NH opponents because they've played in the Rugby Championship, which is actually disrespectful to the teams of the NH.

I don't know who these kiwis are you speak of who say Argentina are invincible so let's not generalise. I'm certainly not one of them. I think the disparity in opinion is due to the fact that we hardly see the Pumas play on the world stage. They exceeded all expectations in 2007 and were unlucky to meet the ABs in the 2011 RWC and made life tough for them for much of the game.

My point was that people either tend to say Argentina are either worldbeaters or they're absolute pants. But much like the teams ranked fourth to eighth, they have their good things and their bad things and have failed to stamp any consistency in their performances against all opposition. So I'm not saying Argentina are the bees' knees and get down and worship them nor am I saying they are one-dimensional and not very good. All I'm saying is that they're a team that seem to be trending upwards at the moment and it's good to see because one of the reasons for that upward trend may be attributed to their involvement in a meaningful tournament and they can build on an impressive set piece base.

Argentina are now, what they have been since the game went professional - a solid top 8 team. This has been achieved with (outside WC windows) minimal preparation time and less international games than other teams.

Having a regular competition to play in should help them improve - though their players suddenly become less desirable to clubs. As it is they struggle with the SANZAR countries (as do ^N teams) and hold their own against 6Ns teams.

Should the results leave them 5th in the rankings would not be due to participating in the 4Ns. It would just be an indication that they are on a par with England, France, Wales & Ireland.

offload wrote:I think everyone here is forgetting Leinster?? Recent literature clearly places them in the top 5.

Top 2 if I'm not mistaken

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Funny how opinion quickly changes. Argentina were considered chumps and many expected them to lose all their games in the RC (they drew one in case you forgot) and when they were announced for some teams in the AI series many (not naming names because frankly I don't remember but I do remember numerous comments being made) their chances were downplayed because of their overall record (without any prior involvement in a meaningful tournament).

So not saying those on this thread who are saying Argentina are a good team were rubbishing them previously. But general opinion seems to have swung round after a competitive showing in the RC and ONE game in the AI series. Argentina are a work in progress but that's what makes them a frightening prospect. They are only going to get stronger. Their interplay and offloading was top notch stuff. Their general backline play has much room for improvement but there is the talent and the speed to become just as formidable as the reputation they have gained in the forwards. Good to see.

I can't recall anyone on here saying that Argentina were considered chumps, Kia. Their record against any of the 6N is too good for that.

Last five matches vs:

France 2-3
England 2-3
Wales 2-3
Ireland 3-2
Scotland 2-3
Italy 4-1

Maybe it was the Aussies you were thinking of......

Wales could beat Argentina on their day.

Pot Hale wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Funny how opinion quickly changes. Argentina were considered chumps and many expected them to lose all their games in the RC (they drew one in case you forgot) and when they were announced for some teams in the AI series many (not naming names because frankly I don't remember but I do remember numerous comments being made) their chances were downplayed because of their overall record (without any prior involvement in a meaningful tournament).

So not saying those on this thread who are saying Argentina are a good team were rubbishing them previously. But general opinion seems to have swung round after a competitive showing in the RC and ONE game in the AI series. Argentina are a work in progress but that's what makes them a frightening prospect. They are only going to get stronger. Their interplay and offloading was top notch stuff. Their general backline play has much room for improvement but there is the talent and the speed to become just as formidable as the reputation they have gained in the forwards. Good to see.

I can't recall anyone on here saying that Argentina were considered chumps, Kia. Their record against any of the 6N is too good for that.

Last five matches vs:

France 2-3
England 2-3
Wales 2-3
Ireland 3-2
Scotland 2-3
Italy 4-1

Maybe it was the Aussies you were thinking of......

How many of those matches were home matches for Argentina?

I would suspect most were away matches?

England games...One win was at Twickers (6 years ago ...when they were good) the other at home, one loss was neutral (last world cup), one of the other two was technicaly a home game but was played in England (their choice to get more cash).
The Scotland games...three were home (they lost two) and one was at the world cup.

Which just goes to show nothing.

It is pretty obvious from pretentious articles like this that some southern posters were unaware of Argentinas existence until they joined the RC. Now that they have though of course they are one of "big boys" now all thanks to the RC. Thanks RC for making Agrentina suddenly so good.

Where are all these Southern hemisphere posters that were unaware of Argentina'sexistence? I havent seen any.

The sensitive point with Argentina, is that as the "wooden spooners" of the RC, they have turned up and clearly outplayed the 6N's "champions".

Biltong wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Funny how opinion quickly changes. Argentina were considered chumps and many expected them to lose all their games in the RC (they drew one in case you forgot) and when they were announced for some teams in the AI series many (not naming names because frankly I don't remember but I do remember numerous comments being made) their chances were downplayed because of their overall record (without any prior involvement in a meaningful tournament).

So not saying those on this thread who are saying Argentina are a good team were rubbishing them previously. But general opinion seems to have swung round after a competitive showing in the RC and ONE game in the AI series. Argentina are a work in progress but that's what makes them a frightening prospect. They are only going to get stronger. Their interplay and offloading was top notch stuff. Their general backline play has much room for improvement but there is the talent and the speed to become just as formidable as the reputation they have gained in the forwards. Good to see.

I can't recall anyone on here saying that Argentina were considered chumps, Kia. Their record against any of the 6N is too good for that.

Last five matches vs:

France 2-3
England 2-3
Wales 2-3
Ireland 3-2
Scotland 2-3
Italy 4-1

Maybe it was the Aussies you were thinking of......

How many of those matches were home matches for Argentina?
I would suspect most were away matches?

vs Italy Won 2 at home, 2 away. Lost 1 away.
Vs. Ireland Won 2 at home, one in Paris. Lost 2 away
Vs. Wales Won 1 at home 1 away. Lost 3 away
vs England Won 1 at home, 1 away. Lost 2 away and 1 in NZ
vs France Won 2 at home. Lost 2 away, 1 at home
vs Scotland Won 1 away, 1 in NZ. Lost 3 at home

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Where are all these Southern hemisphere posters that were unaware of Argentina'sexistence? I havent seen any.

The sensitive point with Argentina, is that as the "wooden spooners" of the RC, they have turned up and clearly outplayed the 6N's "champions".

No one's disputing this point. They're all agreeing with it. (The Welsh may be sensitive over the manner of the loss). The only surprising thing is that some SH fans seem to be surprised that Argentina are better than they knew or expected. This was evident during the 4N as well from some commentators.

But then, I'd argue that three or four of the NH teams would equally fare as well or better if they were to play in the 4N.

Thanks Pothale.

So 30 matches, 15 matches played away from home, 3 on neutral ground and 12 at home.

8/15 at home
5/12 away
2/3 on neutral ground.

Overall a fifty percent record, that is actually not too shabby.

plenty of welsh posters disrespecting Argentina as well - a good side and at least as good as the most NH teams. I think if they played int eh 6N they would be in the top two.

I don't think any NH team would do significantly better in the RC. How many beat SH teams regularly?

Biltong isn't about time you took further action against TJ? After you've repeatedly told him to stop going around in circles, disrespecting other posters opinions and to stop being repetitively boring; he continues on another thread.

Morgan it doesn't help us when you are trying to force our hands in an open forum.

TJ, what are you gaining by continueing something I requested you to stop last night?

TJ wrote:plenty of welsh posters disrespecting Argentina as well - a good side and at least as good as the most NH teams. I think if they played int eh 6N they would be in the top two.

I don't think any NH team would do significantly better in the RC. How many beat SH teams regularly?

France, Ireland, Scotland and England all have much many more games v SH teams than Argentina including recent matches.

GunsGerms wrote:It is pretty obvious from pretentious articles like this that some southern posters were unaware of Argentinas existence until they joined the RC. Now that they have though of course they are one of "big boys" now all thanks to the RC. Thanks RC for making Agrentina suddenly so good.

Here's a thread a while back on Argentina. I think most people from the SH are complimentary towards Argentina so not sure about that comment GG: https://www.606v2.com/t31525-argentina-in-the-rugby-championship

Kia I was referring to this article.

Biltong wrote:Thanks Pothale.

So 30 matches, 15 matches played away from home, 3 on neutral ground and 12 at home.

8/15 at home
5/12 away
2/3 on neutral ground.

Overall a fifty percent record, that is actually not too shabby.

Correct - not too shabby at all. Most of the matches - bar the RWC - were played at the same freshness/rustiness level given that most of the Argentine players are on the NH season clock.

What's even more impressive is their lasting power. More than any other of the 6N or 4N teams, they've had one hell of a schedule in the last 12-14 months. They returned to Top 14/Premiership after the RWC, played through to the respective finals in May/June, then had a short break of a couple of weeks before resuming training for the start of the 4N, and then arriving into Cardiff and hammering the Welsh. Good going.

PH

Although Ive mentioned Argentina's advantage over Wales first game up, over the last few years their schedule has been much more disadvantagous over both NH and SH opponents, and makes their record that much more impressive!!!

2006 was England's worse year for many, but Argentina came to Twickenham and deservedly beat England on the day. My pal and I were very disappointed that Twickenham chose to boo England off the field, rather than applaud Argentina.

I can understand, partly because England were bloody woeful, but that result was the stepping stone to Argentina's performance in RWC 2007.

A certain J M Hernandez was a joy to watch that day.


I have never underestimated Argentina since that day. And they gave us a right old game in RWC 2011.

Oh, before I forget, I take it (with the 'England untested against quality opposition' comment) the OP missed England's last two games against The Aussies.

TJ wrote:plenty of welsh posters disrespecting Argentina as well - a good side and at least as good as the most NH teams. I think if they played int eh 6N they would be in the top two.

I don't think any NH team would do significantly better in the RC. How many beat SH teams regularly?

I've only seen 2 welsh posters apparently 'disrespecting' Argentina on here: Morgannwg and Bluesmancometh. 2 is hardly 'plenty'. However, disrespecting is your word for it, but it seems to me that they just disagree with you as opposed to disrespecting anyone.

Nothing wrong with wanting (or expecting) your team to win, Griff.

Griff

I think you need to re read what Ive written!!! I have taken nothing away from Argentinas ability, they have become my RC team because of the passion the team showed, and have complimented them a thousand times, even above where I have put into context their results against NH opposition and their disadvantagous international season.

I have however portrayed my view that the Argentina performance saturday was not as good as most tend to think, and that IMHO the fact they have been together for months have aided them.

I never once said that Argentina weren't worth their win (I actually think they couldve won by more with a better attitude first half) but I will argue Wales underperformed hugely to allow Argentina the platform.

And I think you need to re-read mine. I was saying that TJ was using the wrong term. That you weren't disrespecting Argentina, IMO.

Sorry that was unwise to raise it again on this thread. I stand by what I say but will drop it now if the bluesman will as well.

Argentina for practical purposes are an Amateur side playing Professional sides .
Apart from RWCs they seldom have the luxury of there first choice team. Because there players are earning a living around the World,and they are victims of Clubs not releasing players.{Bosch.Amorisino}

They have until recently been extremely difficult to beat because they played
forward orientated rugby.
Very much on the 1950/60`s AllBlack/Bok pattern,Power Pack,kicking halfs,solid defence.
THE Difference being un charecteristically there Goal kicking has been wayward.
There 4Ns form indicated they can now mix it with the big boys in the SH.
The fact they came 4th in the 4Ns does`nt show how close they came to winning a couple of those games.
Indeed if Australia have a very bad run and lose ALL there AI`s unlikely as that is
they could end up well down the pecking order.
RWCs are notoriously difficult on the IRB ratings because RWC points count double.

I have to agree Alan. We don't get a full picture of the true status of most sides outside the 6 nations, because of player access, preparation and quality games. All these have been true of Argentina in the past. Even this year they played B and C sides against Italy and France. The normal course of events is for them to play teams, without many of their top players, no preparation and often away from home. Despite this they have a good record over the last 10 years against sides like France, Wales and England.

This year is different, in that the team, has had more time together. They may still struggle on this tour. They have been playing for more than 12 months with very little break and they are playing good sides. It may be they crack the top 4, or they struggle to stay in the top 8. But isn't great that they are competitive.

an interesting but misleading stat due to the opposition Argentina are the 3 rd most successful side in world rugby.After the All Blacks and the Boks and were briefly in 2008 IRB rated number 3 side in world.

emack2 wrote:Argentina for practical purposes are an Amateur side playing Professional sides .
Apart from RWCs they seldom have the luxury of there first choice team. Because there players are earning a living around the World,and they are victims of Clubs not releasing players.{Bosch.Amorisino}

They have until recently been extremely difficult to beat because they played
forward orientated rugby.
Very much on the 1950/60`s AllBlack/Bok pattern,Power Pack,kicking halfs,solid defence.
THE Difference being un charecteristically there Goal kicking has been wayward.
There 4Ns form indicated they can now mix it with the big boys in the SH.
The fact they came 4th in the 4Ns does`nt show how close they came to winning a couple of those games.
Indeed if Australia have a very bad run and lose ALL there AI`s unlikely as that is
they could end up well down the pecking order.
RWCs are notoriously difficult on the IRB ratings because RWC points count double.

I have to disagree here, as this statement in bold is too misleading. If their players were playing amateur rugby in division 2 rugby, then fair enough. But, their players are sprinkled around some of the most professional and highest ranking club sides in Europe. Their players are therefore exposed to rugby at the highest level in the NH, and the professionalism and standard required to obtain such a contract means that by definition they are very professional and highly talented. Just playing devil's advocate a bit, but you could say that Arengtina's opponents the other day (Wales) are more like amateurs because the majority play in weaker teams in a weaker league, and are not exposed to the level of rugby week in week out compared to their Argentinian counterparts! Are Wales like the amateurs playing the professionals from Argentina??? Certainly in terms of earnings and the contracts/clubs that they're in then the Argies are probably on top.

Not sure the Rabo is much weaker to other European leagues. Maybe less intense but the Welsh teams get to line out against the best teams in Europe in the Rabo.