Who has the bigger dilemma?...and over who??

First topic message reminder :

It's been clear for a while that Olly will face a difficult time in making his Captains picks (not too long to go now either). However just listened to PM being interviewed and it was pointed out that he is currently in the last automatic place for the US Team, IF he has a poor weekend he could conceivably fall out of the automatic picks. If you were DL3 would you leave out Phil if he needed a pick??

Here are my views:
1) Sergio has the right attitude.
2) Paddy doesn't. Nor is he in form. Nor does he seem to bring any team spirit. Nor do I think he "fits in".
3) Colsaerts is a bit of an unknown to me. Don't know how his stand is amongst his fellow players. Form seems to be ok, although a bit inconsitent.
4)We need more continental players on the team. Must balance the British contingent.
5) Sergio and Bjorn will be part of the team for sure, either as players or VC's.

It doesnt really matter what spirit Garcia has shown in the past, and its 4 years since he played a Ryder Cup, El Sulk simply doesnt have the stomach for a fight these days. He'd be a big gamble in my book.

Pedro - Once anything goes against Sergio, his shoulders go down and he seems to take the attitude that the world is against him and there is nothing he can do about it. I presume this is not the attitude you admire? You obviously believe he can lose this attitude and be really upbeat for the Ryder Cup. Perhaps you're right but I have grave doubts that he can recapture something he last had six years ago just like that.

Whatever else you might say about Padraig, to suggest he is not in form at the moment is just wrong. His putting is still short of his best but his game is actually in really good shape. As set out on another thread, he recorded the 4th best cumulative score of all players who played the full 288 holes of Major Championship golf in 2012. He was beaten only by Scott, McDowell & Poulter.

Tinmar wrote:....Whatever else you might say about Padraig, to suggest he is not in form at the moment is just wrong. His putting is still short of his best but his game is actually in really good shape. As set out on another thread, he recorded the 4th best cumulative score of all players who played the full 288 holes of Major Championship golf in 2012. He was beaten only by Scott, McDowell & Poulter.

If you're going to use statistics, you get a more "accurate" result if you take a larger sample population than just 4 competitions. How do they compare on a strokes per round average over the whole season? I still think a purely statistical approach is flawed in picking a team, but if you're using it to support an argument, you'd need to widen the net I think.

Why compare strokeplay results? Ryder Cup was matchplay last time I looked and is a completely different game in which Harrington has never really excelled.

You pick people who are going to be best for the team and the format in which the tournament is played, not on statistics. Attitude goes a long way in that competition.

super_realist wrote:Why compare strokeplay results? Ryder Cup was matchplay last time I looked and is a completely different game in which Harrington has never really excelled.

You pick people who are going to be best for the team and the format in which the tournament is played, not on statistics. Attitude goes a long way in that competition.

True. But you can have a great attitude and spray it everywhere, and still lose to someone with a rubbish attitude who hits it down the middle. Form and swing technicalities have to be part of the equation too, although as I said above, not all of it by a long way.

Anyway, we all know it is just a little charity event to stop Europeans like monty - who cant win majors - from topping themselves.

Classic Mac.
Still quite entertaining though

Tinmar wrote:Pedro - Once anything goes against Sergio, his shoulders go down and he seems to take the attitude that the world is against him and there is nothing he can do about it. I presume this is not the attitude you admire? You obviously believe he can lose this attitude and be really upbeat for the Ryder Cup. Perhaps you're right but I have grave doubts that he can recapture something he last had six years ago just like that.

Whatever else you might say about Padraig, to suggest he is not in form at the moment is just wrong. His putting is still short of his best but his game is actually in really good shape. As set out on another thread, he recorded the 4th best cumulative score of all players who played the full 288 holes of Major Championship golf in 2012. He was beaten only by Scott, McDowell & Poulter.

Ok I appreciate all your doing is arguing Padraig's case for inclusion over Sergio, whilst me and others are doing the opposite but your use of stats here aint doing your argument any favours. So you say Padraig is in good form and Sergio is not (we know hes not) but im simply not buying your conclusion that Padraig is in form that deserves picked.

On the world ranking thread, Padraig is 43rd for points gained this year compared to Sergio's 48th. As you rightly say Padraig has been 4th in the cumulative score of the 4 majors. Impressive and will give you that but as the majors are more heavily weighted points wise, you would expect Padraig to be a lot higher in the points gained this year. The fact that hes so low as 43rd proves hes not had that great a season and hasnt done anything since his 3 majors either so once again in my opinion doesnt deserve a pick.

From the Euro side, it's all very difficult, and not for the "nice to have problem" of all the top guys and all potential team members playing well.

Agree that the Ryder Cup seems to have a rejuvenating effect on Sergio (it was the 2010 event which arguably brought him back to playing), but also agree that it's been a while since his RC glory days. I recall him being absolutely and embarrassingly thumped by A Kim in the opening singles match in 2008, which I would have thought contributed to the US win/Euro loss (whichever way you see it) more than the 1 point on the board suggested. [It says it all that Kim was walking off to the next hole as Garcia went to shake his hand, because he hadn't registered that the match was over so early]

The other point potentially to consider is the future. You could take the US approach and throw a Ricky Fowler-type into the deep end, or the European one - bring along promising youngsters to observe (Kaymer in 2008 who went on to become a major winner and world #1, Rhys Davies in 2010... who... er... hasn't done either yet). So is there any room for the likes of Olesen, Mannasero, Luiten, Lewis etc? [my view is that there may be one or two buggy drivers from this pool of talent, but I can't see them making the team - well, maybe Olesen if he wins again]

It seems to me that the US team is pretty much set though in that they can just look down the qualifying list and pick the next 4 after the automatic 8.

Bob - I just checked the PGA Tour site and Padraig is 8th in stroke average for the year to date. Sergio is 40th.

Super - I fully agree but you have to base any decision on something. There is so little matchplay played that it would be crazy to base a decision in 2012 on something that happened in 2006. I wouldn't say Padraig has never excelled at matchplay but the Ryder Cup has definitely become less of a priority for him as his focus is more on Majors.

I'm not advocating picking Padraig at all, simply pointing out that his form is good at the moment. I agree about attitude being so important which is why I wouldn't pick Sergio. He last played well in a Ryder Cup in 2006. He doesn't seem to be in a good place at the moment so I can't understand why people think he will be able to turn it on at will in September.

Sand - the one point I would make is that Padraig hasn't been in the field for any of the WGC events this year. This is entirely his own fault and based on his poor form in 2011. A place in the field for these three events would have meant guaranteed money and points no matter how he played. Last year he played in all 3 WGC's despite his form not being good.

Padraig's year to date is very similar to Sergio's at the same stage last year. He has been very consistent without closing the deal. To turn it into a really good year, he needs to win at least once before the year-end just like Sergio did in 2011. It may well be better if he does not make the Ryder Cup team.

It seems that people are basing their argument for the inclusion for harrington on the fact he's a fellow tatty muncher or some affection they hold than anything actually important connected to his form or focus for the Ryder cup whereas those for sergio are basing it on a good record, a desire to play Ryder cup and a similar vein of form to harrington.

Super - bizarre summing up without even the slightest connection to anything that was said above or any attempt to try to be factually accurate.

Ironically given the way thus discussion is progressing...or digressing... I doubt Sergio would be as serious a contender if Olazabal wasnt captaining this years bash. Would be useful to see the top 10 in each of the pts list if anyone has a note, with the current qualifiers highlighted on each.

I don't know why there's such a polarised view on this. What about David Lynn, or Gonzo, or even Cabrera-Bello? All above one or both of Sergio and Paddy in one or both of the lists. Given Lynn's performance at Kiawah, I'd be happier to see him make his debut than I would be with either of Sergio or Padraig.

I would agree with that. I think the team might well be better and more up for the battle if they had three or four rookies.

barragan wrote:Ironically given the way thus discussion is progressing...or digressing... I doubt Sergio would be as serious a contender if Olazabal wasnt captaining this years bash. Would be useful to see the top 10 in each of the pts list if anyone has a note, with the current qualifiers highlighted on each.

Why wouldnt he be? Who is a more serious candidate? You can see the current top 10 of each on the European Tour website where it says Ryder Cup tab. Hes in the top 13 in both rankings at the very worst and only just been removed out of the word ranking points this weekend.

SmithersJones wrote:I don't know why there's such a polarised view on this. What about David Lynn, or Gonzo, or even Cabrera-Bello? All above one or both of Sergio and Paddy in one or both of the lists. Given Lynn's performance at Kiawah, I'd be happier to see him make his debut than I would be with either of Sergio or Padraig.

I stopped reading that once I digested what about David Lynn? Really based on one performance? USA already have the more form team without picking randoms such as Lynn.

Thanks sand
Hanson for me ought to be on the team.Colsearts probably deserves the 2nd spot on merit and is an exciting prospect. Though i see as things stand, if the top 6 from each were chosen it'd be Hanson / Garcia. I think a lot of people expect Garcia to get the nod because olazabal is choosing and will pick his fellow countryman . Hence the comment re irony v'sIrish posters favouring h a rrington

Nice bit of self contradiction there Sand. Take another look at those lists and see where Lynn is on both of them in relation to Sergio.

barragan wrote:Thanks sand
Hanson for me ought to be on the team.Colsearts probably deserves the 2nd spot on merit and is an exciting prospect. Though i see as things stand, if the top 6 from each were chosen it'd be Hanson / Garcia. I think a lot of people expect Garcia to get the nod because olazabal is choosing and will pick his fellow countryman . Hence the comment re irony v'sIrish posters favouring h a rrington

Think Hanson is pretty much in Barragan. Hes in from his position on the Rankings points as McIroy, Rose and McDowell are in the top 5 of both lists.

Think its only Kaymer & Poulter that can basically be removed from the team the top 8 are basically, home and hosed. I see what your saying about olly and Garcia, I just agree with Monty and Ewan Murray that if the ten stay as it is its two from three. Harrington, Garcia & Colsearts.

SmithersJones wrote:Nice bit of self contradiction there Sand. Take another look at those lists and see where Lynn is on both of them in relation to Sergio.

It was tounge in Cheek Smithers, but are you trying to tell me Lynn should be picked? Hes so high up the rankings as he won over 800 k yesterday! Hes a journeyman who has only won once in 2004. I dont believe you were being serious but if he was picked over one of Kaymer/Poulter/Garcia/Harrington or Colsearts, I wouldnt bother sending the plane over.

Since the 10 member of the Euro Team (as of right now) are all RC Veterans, if I were Ollie, I would be looking at the two rookies for a Captains pick. As an investment in the future.

The core of Euro Team is going to Rory, Luke, Westy, GMac and Justin. I expect at least three of them to be playing all 5 five sessions and the other two, 4 sessions, unless they are totally stinking up the joint on Day 1.

I would pick two of these players: Colsaerts, RCB, Matteo, Thorbjorn.

I actually think Europe most competitive option is the Swedish Redneck but we all know that is he has less chance than I do of being picked. And I am an American. Only Sergio has more PGAT wins than Carl Pettersson than any of the Euro Contenders and some of Petterson's wins are on similar courses as Medinah.

GPB wrote:Since the 10 member of the Euro Team (as of right now) are all RC Veterans, if I were Ollie, I would be looking at the two rookies for a Captains pick. As an investment in the future.

My thoughts exactly GPB.
My feeling is the best team sides are a mix of experienced RC/Presidents players, with wins in that event and on tour under their belt, and rookies experiencing team play for the first time, to keep the old guys fresh. Throw a few journeymen enjoying a hot year in there if needed, but they're not strictly necessary. The Euro side is hardly crying out for experience with Westwood, Donald, Poulter, Rose etc all in there. My instinct is that long-term RCB will be a more successful player than Colsaerts, and he's better at this stage than Matteo and Thorbjorn, so I'd have him first pick (and as token Spaniard). Second pick could then be down to form in the next two weeks, with Colsaerts probably top of the list, all things equal, but a chance for Sergio, Padraig and the kids to force their way in.

On Pettersson, when he's been mentioned in previous years I've said it's irrelevant, as he'd be no loss, but this time round he's in the midst of his best season by far, and various other guys have struggled; I'd say there's no question that he's currently one of the best 12 Europeans in the world. Add to that he's got the sort of solid all-around game that'd be pretty useful, he seems pretty cool-headed and a good friendly guy, and he's well-suited to PGA-setups. If I was Jose Maria I'd definitely be having some discussions behind the scenes to see if there's any room for manoeuvre.

One more thing - add Poulter to your core list, he's the most crucial of the lot I reckon.

NedB-H wrote:

One more thing - add Poulter to your core list, he's the most crucial of the lot I reckon.

No doubt he's a gritty and determined battler - perfect for match play, although I'm not sure about how he fits in and the overall team dynamic (although, to be fair, I'm also not sure just how important that really is).

On thing there is no doubt about, in reading this board and others, there is already a massive and palpable sense of excitment about the RC

How doesn't Poulter fit into the team dynamic?
He's one of the most reliable players in the format and appears to get on with all of them in previous years.

Im sure he will fit in, think of the enless hours of fun as he regales the rest of the team with stories of how with just a bit of luck he could have won all four majors this year, and indeed probably should have.....

He can certainly lord it over Donald and Westwood this year in that regard Diggers, uncharacteristically for Poulter he's been exceptional in the majors this year, and hasn't missed a single cut either in a tournament since 2011

Yeah he's done OK in the majors, though as Ive said before they really are beginning to seem just like normal tournaments these days in terms of results. Especially when you see the likes of David Lynn finishing second.

A bit harsh Diggers, a major is still a major, you can't blame David Lynn for playing out of his skin simply because the likes of Woods et al bottle it and choke in round 4.

Diggers

You clearly didn't bother to watch the open or the PGA, two very good golf events with play you will not see week to week.

I watched the Open, it was pretty dull for me. Scott choking didnt really make great TV. Rory played great this week and he is clearly the only exceptional talent around right now and he is hit and miss.

The Open is dull Diggers, I agree, I think that's more to do with the R&A and their drab and unchallenging open rota they have than the players who take part.

The majors just havent engaged me this year, to be honest golf hasnt really, the year doesnt seem to have taken off.
Now we have the hype painful hype of the RC to come and everything else is really just a glorified end of year chase for dollars.

To think I thought you were such a positive outgoing and up beat person Diggers, a la Kriss Akabusi.

Golf hasn't been the same since November 27th, 2009.

What happened then?

I think Tiger might have crashed his car!

What sort of loser can recall that date?

super_realist wrote:To think I thought you were such a positive outgoing and up beat person Diggers, a la Kriss Akabusi.

To be fair I cant think of anyone who has been more positive and upbeat about say the Olympics. I just dont think golf is in a great place right now in relation to some other sports, I think its a bit of a weak period IMO. So it hasnt really engaged me. Im sure it will again.

Fair enough. I'm not exactly sweetness and light myself, not quite a peevish old curmudgeon, but probably will be one day.

Olympics was good though.

Also I think football is at its lowest ebb in this country. Not far away from eating itself or a financial meltdown

super_realist wrote:What happened then?

Golf as we knew it changed forever. Admit it- excitement in golf has vanished along with Woods' game.

In fairness, I don't think people are comparing like with like when talking about the Olympics. Of course it was great but how many people will pay any attention to most of those sports for the next four years? They will still be taking place, just not in the Olympics.

As for excitement in golf disappearing with Woods' game. I couldn't disagree more. I don't blame Tiger but his dominance sucked all the excitement out of the game for me for some time. Several times I was really looking forward to one of the Majors. My heart would sink once Tiger took charge on Friday or Saturday as the outcome became a foregone conclusion. No drama and no excitement.

incontinentia wrote:

super_realist wrote:What happened then?

Golf as we knew it changed forever. Admit it- excitement in golf has vanished along with Woods' game.

The game has been 100% better in my opinion. Any one player dominating any sport is boring, and when it is someone as humourless, unpleasant, wooden, joyless and miserable as Woods it couldn't make for any worse viewing. Not to mention how bad and sycophantic the coverage was when he was at his peak. Hopefully given his dreadful swing and fragile body his game will be in decline soon and we'll never hear from the knob jockey once he reaches 40.

Tinmar wrote:In fairness, I don't think people are comparing like with like when talking about the Olympics. Of course it was great but how many people will pay any attention to most of those sports for the next four years? They will still be taking place, just not in the Olympics.

As for excitement in golf disappearing with Woods' game. I couldn't disagree more. I don't blame Tiger but his dominance sucked all the excitement out of the game for me for some time. Several times I was really looking forward to one of the Majors. My heart would sink once Tiger took charge on Friday or Saturday as the outcome became a foregone conclusion. No drama and no excitement.

Plenty of opportunities to watch the sports you like Tinmar, I know Ill be watching plenty of cycling and athletics and swimming between now and Rio, and Im sure lots of people have been inspired to take up sports which are perhaps not as mainstream.
Did anyone really think Rory would be caught at the PGA ? I think it will be a similar scenario now, when he is in the lead he will walk majors, he is a class apart. The difference with the Woods era is that in Els, Mickleson Goosen and Singh he had some really high quality rivals, Rory doesnt have that. Not yet anyway. Id love to see Woods take that next step and be back contending at the very end of majors as I really dont think there is anyone out there who can give Coco much of a fight if they are both in the mix.

super_realist wrote:How doesn't Poulter fit into the team dynamic?
He's one of the most reliable players in the format and appears to get on with all of them in previous years.

Didn't say he didn't.. just that I wasn't sure how. He always seems a bit different/removed from the other players imho. I have the feeling he's ruffled some feathers in the past but I could be wrong. He strikes me as a bit too self-centred, which is great for match play, but I don't know about team matchplay. Anyway.. as I say.. I'm not sure about him from that perspective but I've no doubts about his ability or attitude.

I don't think anyone could have said with certainty before the 4th round teed off that Rory would definitely win. He has looked very vulnerable with leads before. I can't see him dominating to the same extent as Tiger but if he does, I don't imagine I will find that very exciting either.

There are lots of opportunites to watch every Olympic sport for the next four years but most of them will be very much under the radar. Comparing the general health of golf with any Olympic sport simply looking at what went on in London isn't a fair comparison.

BOb, have you ever seen the Twitter banter between Rose, Poulter, DOnald , Westwood etc? He's definitely not a devisive influence, and given his RC record, it seems people have no problem playing with him either.

He's a confident player, but I think people judge him more on the past than what he is actually like now.

Where did I compare golf and the Olympics ?