English clubs give 2 year notice to withdraw from Heineken European Cup

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

The governing body of England's top rugby union clubs has given notice of its intention to pull out of the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.
The move comes amid disagreements over how the competitions are organised.
Recent Heineken Cup winners

French clubs have also threatened to withdraw, but as two years' notice has to be given the move is perceived as an attempt to force others to negotiate.
"We hope that there will now be an urgent dialogue," said Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty.
In May, Leinster beat Ulster 42-14 in the Heineken Cup final to retain the trophy.
Premiership Rugby's intention to exit the competition will affect such top English sides as Northampton, Saracens, Gloucester, Bath, Harlequins, Leicester and London Irish, all of whom competed in the 2011-12 tournament.
McCafferty added that he hopes discussions can commence soon regarding "the future of European cup rugby, including qualification, competition formats and ambition to expand into new markets".
The governing body's notice period extends to the end of the 2013-14 event, at which point they say they will exit the competitions.

Well goodbye and good luck England.

Cheers boys, thanks for coming, shut the door on your way out!

I dont actually know what they are complaining for? Because we havent won it for a few years...? Sour grapes if that is the case...

I say don't negotiate, and call their bluff. They need the HC more than they are letting on.

Celt & Italian rugby will benefit for it more with the rabo becoming more competitive, with teams concentrating on the league more.

The french & english leagues will be forced to re-organise to adjust for the drop in revenue, which will benefit them over time.

logie28 wrote:Cheers boys, thanks for coming, shut the door on your way out!

NOt exactly clever mate....The problems you then have is France will follow...the HC and the Magners will be identical so pointless....and European rugby is in trouble...

I find tantrums like this extremely childish. If they are going to pull out then have the backbone to do it now and not go back on their word.
Holding others to ransom is pathetic in my book

Cymroglan wrote:I find tantrums like this extremely childish. If they are going to pull out then have the backbone to do it now.

Pulling out now would breach contract, and they'd get the daylights sued out of them. Giving notice that they aren't happy, and asking to renegotiate when the current agreement expires is sound business practice.

The French have already given notice, and if the 2 countries pulled out and set up an Anglo-French comp they'd probably be in a similar financial postition to where they are now - a smaller pot of cash, but less people to share it with.

Ultimately I predict that England won't pullout unless France does.

Cymroglan wrote:I find tantrums like this extremely childish. If they are going to pull out then have the backbone to do it now and not go back on their word.
Holding others to ransom is pathetic in my book

Hear hear Cymro.
I'm sure there are a few ways to improve the product and I have no problem having them explored. Threatening to boycott the tournament if you don't get your own way is really childish.
Thank feic there is more than one ball available.

Kiwi if you are going to quote something then quote all the sentence.

If they are going to pull out then have the backbone to do it now and not go back on their word

Cymroglan wrote:Kiwi if you are going to quote something then quote all the sentence.

If they are going to pull out then have the backbone to do it now and not go back on their word

I just hit the "Quote" button and then typed, don't know where your 2nd line disappeared to sorry.

Leinster, stop being so mean...let the French and English clubs win occasionally, otherwise they are going to take their ball home because they don't want to play anymore.

Frankly I really dont care if the English teams leave. I would be disappointed if the French went as they do add something different. Truth be told though the Rabo teams can't win. If a English or French club wins then we shouldn't compete because we are not good enough, then again if we win it's because we have too many advantages.

Tell the Toffs and Frogs to shove it and expand the Rabo direct instead.

Bye bye English teams....as my Welsh friend on another board puts it....

It's not any business of the PRL how other leagues determine qualificaiton for the HC. It's irrelevant for two reasons:
1. When you turn up to play if you're goof enough you progress - it's 15 v 15.
2. The real issue here is just greed. Currently the PRL get 25% I believe? They are demanding 33% of the revenue.

The Rabbo countries will do the same as they did to the RFU when they tried to snatch a greater share of the 5N pot about 15 years ago - namely tell them to Flip right off - and rightly so.

One question on this: why now? Why not, say, 5 years ago? I know people will suggest 'it's because they're not winning it any more', to which other's will disagree, but what else could it be? Nothing's changed in the competitition since the Welsh went to regions in 2003 has it? The Italian's joining? Was qualification different in 2006 for example? Why wasn't this brought up back then?

Also - the English did this before in 1999 - they left the HC and came crawling back a year later when the competition continued without them. The more and more I look at this the more and more it seems the motivation here is for more money. In terms of rugby the Scottish and Italians will lose out and nobody else gain - it has to be about money.

Griff wrote:One question on this: why now? Why not, say, 5 years ago? I know people will suggest 'it's because they're not winning it any more', to which other's will disagree, but what else could it be? Nothing's changed in the competitition since the Welsh went to regions in 2003 has it? The Italian's joining? Was qualification different in 2006 for example? Why wasn't this brought up back then?

There wasn't a recession 5 years ago. Prospects for an ever growing future pot of TV rights looked pretty rosy.

So have the ERC cut their funding? Or threatened to because of the recession?

I guess if the English teams did leave we could drop the size of the competition to 20 teams easily. 10 French and 10 Rabo team. The French could get more teams in so they'd be happy.

wales606 wrote:Leinster, stop being so mean...let the French and English clubs win occasionally, otherwise they are going to take their ball home because they don't want to play anymore.

Griff wrote:So have the ERC cut their funding? Or threatened to because of the recession?

No its just greed, they want a bigger slice of the HC revenue, they arent getting it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

wales606 wrote:Leinster, stop being so mean...let the French and English clubs win occasionally, otherwise they are going to take their ball home because they don't want to play anymore.

Oh yeah, can you let the Welsh teams win it too - otherwise we quit.

Your sincerely, Roger Lewis.


Im surprised the All Blacks didn't pull out of the WC because they didn't win it for so long. Maybe that's the reason for Joubert's performance in the final - he was warned that if the All Blacks choked this time NZ would never play any other country at rugby because it is clearly unfair that they keep losing knockout games.

Also, simple solution - give the French more teams in the HC and drop the English.

Bet you that within 1 year the English come crawling back wanting all that lovely money they just threw away - then offer them less than they were getting before for being so greedy.

The HC doesn't lose much by losing the English clubs at the moment, losing the French would be a different matter - get the French onside and the English are forced to fold, this seems a very silly standoff for the PRL to get involved in, its very unlikely they will win.

or we could get the japanese clubs involved to make up for the money lost?

I don't really understand this negative reaction from the non premiership fans

Surely if the Premiership is not happy and behind closed doors they find things aren't going the way they want, and the protocol is 2 years notice then they did it by the book?

Why be smarting and sarcastic about it?

No GF, it wasn't very clever, but its how I would treat a child having a hissy fit, which is what this appears to be from the English.

Of course we would miss them if they left, I really hope they don't, but we also wont pay any attention to this sort of grandstanding, thus my flippant remark.

biltongbek wrote:I don't really understand this negative reaction from the non premiership fans

Surely if the Premiership is not happy and behind closed doors they find things aren't going the way they want, and the protocol is 2 years notice then they did it by the book?

Why be smarting and sarcastic about it?

why do they want to leave though?

biltongbek
Because it's the truth and if you cant see it then that's your problem.
Childish threats just to try and get their own way.

This is not a money issue, they want the top 6 teams in the Rabo direct to qualify on merit from their league, along side the top 6 from France and England, along with last seasons winners and Amlin cup winners.

So in theory we'd have 7 places next season, Ulster, Munster Leinster, Cardiff, Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow.

So Ireland would lose Connacht, Scotland would lose 1 place and Italy would lose 2 places, Wales actually would be no worse off.

The English clubs argument is the Rabo is less draining and players get more rest, and this is the reason why Irish teams have won most of the previous few seasons Heinaken Cups. I don't agree of course because Welsh teams can easily handle the Irish in the league but were still urine poor in Europe. So if the league is less demanding then shouldn't the Welsh teams be doing better to?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I don't really understand this negative reaction from the non premiership fans

Surely if the Premiership is not happy and behind closed doors they find things aren't going the way they want, and the protocol is 2 years notice then they did it by the book?

Why be smarting and sarcastic about it?

why do they want to leave though?

it's says in the article, can you not read?

Why is it childish?

They are unhappy with the setup, it is a strategic move that forces all parties involved to address the situation. It isn't a five year old threatening to run to mommy.

There must be a reason why they feel this step is necessary, unfortunately these behind closed door scenario's are kept behind closed doors.

Cymroglan wrote:biltongbek
Because it's the truth and if you cant see it then that's your problem.
Childish threats just to try and get their own way.

Please don't pass your opinion as fact. In fact your whole attitude in your post shows how silly your being.

They want everybody else to change the system why don't they just change theirs.

nathan I am on your side, but lets not make personal attacks please.

biltongbek wrote:nathan I am on your side, but lets not make personal attacks please.

Sorry (Cyrm), didn't mean it in a harsh way.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I don't really understand this negative reaction from the non premiership fans

Surely if the Premiership is not happy and behind closed doors they find things aren't going the way they want, and the protocol is 2 years notice then they did it by the book?

Why be smarting and sarcastic about it?

why do they want to leave though?

This was all discussed 3 or 4 weeks back when the French posted their notice.

Playing a little Devil's advocate here (I enjoy the HEC as it is)
The French want a streamlined HEC comp, with less teams in it so they can expand Top14. The English can see all the money coming in from English Sky subsribers, and want some more of the pot, plus they've like to be able to focus primarily on their league. They've also worked out that Sky and French broadcasters would probably pay a fair amount for an Anglo-French cup, and they'd only have to split the money 2 ways not 6. It's not a particularly nice or very compassionate thing to do, but the financial logic is there.

Ultimately the Rabo nations stand to lose a lot more if England and France leave than England and France do. If just England left then the HEC would carry on fine (as in 1999), without both nations you've got a Rabo Cup, with much less TV revenue to run it on.

nathan

Nathan talk to like a adult and I will respond name calling is not the answer.

Cymroglan wrote:They want everybody else to change the system why don't they just change theirs.

Did anyone notice they are no longer using the excuse that their league is more demanding because their teams face relegation? The next time they say that we can point out it's nearly impossible to get into the league, and most of the teams if they did get relegated cant get back into it!

He did apologise cymro

biltongbek wrote:nathan I am on your side, but lets not make personal attacks please.

Does thast explain why the post was not removed ?

biltongbek wrote:

There must be a reason why they feel this step is necessary,.

They arent winning? I think its incredibly childish.

I'll add, England and France are in a similar position to South Africa in SANZAR - SA brings in much more of the revenue for Super Rugby than NZ and Aus do, but NZ and Aus tend to have similar opinions to each other, and therefore dominate the voting.

Kiwireddevil wrote:I'll add, England and France are in a similar position to South Africa in SANZAR - SA brings in much more of the revenue for Super Rugby than NZ and Aus do, but NZ and Aus tend to have similar opinions to each other, and therefore dominate the voting.

So what your saying is we kick the English out and let the South Africans join?
Well it could work!

Cymroglan wrote:

biltongbek wrote:nathan I am on your side, but lets not make personal attacks please.

Does thast explain why the post was not removed ?

I've edited it, so you can stop your whining.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

There must be a reason why they feel this step is necessary,.

They arent winning? I think its incredibly childish.

again, that's your opinion. They haven't given that as a reason.

The reason I am not deleting his post is because the reaction from the non premiership supporters have been very agressive, and as you can see I reprimanded him immediately.

Preventing this to explode into a free for all.

nathan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I don't really understand this negative reaction from the non premiership fans

Surely if the Premiership is not happy and behind closed doors they find things aren't going the way they want, and the protocol is 2 years notice then they did it by the book?

Why be smarting and sarcastic about it?

why do they want to leave though?

it's says in the article, can you not read?

nope too lazy

nathan wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:biltongbek
Because it's the truth and if you cant see it then that's your problem.
Childish threats just to try and get their own way.

Please don't pass your opinion as fact. In fact your whole attitude in your post shows how silly your being.

Tell me why it's being done now then and not when English sides were dominating?
If you think I'm being silly then fine but I also believe you are being extremely naive if you think they are pulling out for any other reason

Kiwireddevil wrote:I'll add, England and France are in a similar position to South Africa in SANZAR - SA brings in much more of the revenue for Super Rugby than NZ and Aus do, but NZ and Aus tend to have similar opinions to each other, and therefore dominate the voting.

That's correct, and the same game is played at SANZAR that is being played by the european unions

biltongbek wrote:The reason I am not deleting his post is because the reaction from the non premiership supporters have been very agressive, and as you can see I reprimanded him immediately.

Preventing this to explode into a free for all.

I am not responsible for what others say.