Next year's HC seedings - good for Clermont/Ulster - bad for English clubs?

The ERC ranking system is awful complicated, but from a cursory glance at how they award teams ranking points, it looks like there might be no English team in Tier 1 with Clermont probably replacing Leicester. Tier 1 would be Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Cardiff, Biarritz and Clermont. Ulster will also be rewarded for this season with a promotion to Tier 2 along side Leicester, Northampton, Stade, Ospreys and Bath.

Do ERC rules allow for three teams from the same country in any one tier - like three French in Tier 1 and three English in Tier 2 - not sure, maybe somebody can clarify

as far as I know they can. Think that it is about being in the top two tiers is more important then the top one as I don't think there is much between them. Each tier 2 would hope to beat any tier one at home excet maybe Bath. They also would look to get at least a BP from away agames

You is where you is. If Ulster win the HC there will be 3 Irish teams in the top layer.

To get Northampton out of the top tier. Either Biarritz would need to win the Amlin and Clermont would have to make the final OR Ulster would need to beat Clermont in the final.

Anything else and Northampton move up top

Brendan wrote:as far as I know they can. Think that it is about being in the top two tiers is more important then the top one as I don't think there is much between them. Each tier 2 would hope to beat any tier one at home excet maybe Bath. They also would look to get at least a BP from away agames

Bath are a bit of a longshot to pass Gloucester into the top 6. So they may not make the HC

I reckon both Saints and Tigers might still be in the top tier for next year.

They will both have 20 points by my reckoning. Although Biarritz will have more points there is still the possibility that they might not qualify from the Top 14 standings.

Places in league table should decide seedings. If you win the Pro12, AP or T14, then you're one of the top sides, as are the losing finalists. And so on.

That would make the leagues more competitive across the board.

Not a bad idea Pot Hale. This would be particularly good for the Pro 12, because there can't be relegation and the HC spots will always be allocated to individual unions. If the Pro 12 teams had to earn their ERC seeding position every year in the league that would raise the importance and intensity of the whole league. I think it's a brilliant idea actually.

MrsP wrote:I reckon both Saints and Tigers might still be in the top tier for next year.

They will both have 20 points by my reckoning. Although Biarritz will have more points there is still the possibility that they might not qualify from the Top 14 standings.

Reckon again. Leicester have 17 points. They will defo be tier 2. Biarritz can only qualify by winning the Amlin.

Cardiff and Northampton have 20 points with no hope of adding to it.

They could both end up in tier 2

If Biarritz win the Amlin AND Ulster beat Clermont in the HC final. The top 6 will be Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Biarritz, Clermont Ulster.

I sit corrected Jenny!

They are on 18.

Drop the 3 points they have from the 2007-2008 season and only earned 2 points this year.

17 for next year indeed.

MrsP wrote:I sit corrected Jenny!

They are on 18.

Drop the 3 points they have from the 2007-2008 season and only earned 2 points this year.

17 for next year indeed.

Apparently I'm an ubernerd.

Doesn't sound like a good thing. I assure you I actually do have social skills.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Cardiff and Northampton have 20 points with no hope of adding to it.

They could both end up in tier 2

If Biarritz win the Amlin AND Ulster beat Clermont in the HC final. The top 6 will be Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Biarritz, Clermont Ulster.

Ulster currently have 10 and lose only one from the 07-08 season but the maximum they would earn if they won the HEC is 10 leaving them on a maximum of 19.

Or am I getting it wrong again?

MrsP wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Cardiff and Northampton have 20 points with no hope of adding to it.

They could both end up in tier 2

If Biarritz win the Amlin AND Ulster beat Clermont in the HC final. The top 6 will be Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Biarritz, Clermont Ulster.

Ulster currently have 10 and lose only one from the 07-08 season but the maximum they would earn if they won the HEC is 10 leaving them on a maximum of 19.

Or am I getting it wrong again?

HC Champs automatically in tier 1

Ah ha!

See, I didn't know that!



The diagnosis of ubernerd is growing more likely here Jenny!

MrsP wrote:Ah ha!

See, I didn't know that!



The diagnosis of ubernerd is growing more likely here Jenny!

I only copped it myself the other day. Perhaps there's hope for me?

Ah sure a grand fella yerself Jenny, even if you have a girl's name.

Never did that bloke in that song by Jonny Cash any harm, did it?

Never did the Rugby team a bit of harm either. In fact we won 2 Heineken cups directly after the coining of the phrase.

I've never heard Leinster called "Sue" so there's another thing I've learned tonight!

Feckless Rogue wrote:Not a bad idea Pot Hale. This would be particularly good for the Pro 12, because there can't be relegation and the HC spots will always be allocated to individual unions. If the Pro 12 teams had to earn their ERC seeding position every year in the league that would raise the importance and intensity of the whole league. I think it's a brilliant idea actually.

I suggested it for the Pro12 in the other thread '3 out 4 teams in the H Cup are from the Rabo' following your response to my question. I also wondered but no one answered as to whether there were other incentives/deterrents for league placings. If you don't win the title, is there any value in coming fourth as opposed to sixth? And if not, why not?

Relegation should be the last resort - there are plenty of other disincentives that could be applied if a team chooses to inhabit the lower reaches of the league or to be more positive, other incentives to make sure they get as high as they can. All of this would be under the control of the Pro12 clubs without meddling influence from the dark forces to the east.

There are different degrees of prize money allocated depending on league position.

Ulster will at least be Tier 2 though, yes?

Notch wrote:There are different degrees of prize money allocated depending on league position.

Any specifics on that, Notch? Is it substantial enough for a club to care?

Dodger Dave wrote:Ulster will at least be Tier 2 though, yes?

Yes. guaranteed.

On the doing places as two how teams finish would make more dead rubbers and less teams that care.

Would teams try if they knew they could get any better next year but would be better because of league placing.

I do think it should be weighted but maybe by 10% so this year 100% last year 90% third year 81% fourth year 73%.

I read topics on here that showed there was no difference and as shown if you are stronger you do better regardless of seed.

anyone who makes the finals of the leauge would expect to get five wins regardless of oppostion see Ulster and Leicster both would have seen them as being able to make the 1/4

It is interesting that this years semi finalists have come from,

Top Tier...Leinster

Second Tier....ASM

Third Tier...Ulster and Edinburgh

Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

I think many were suprised Ulster were so low but last year was the first time they got out of the group since they won it and Edinburgh hadn't for years.

Everyone goes on about Cardiff and Biaritiz but to be fair they seem to come top or second and move on to one to the 1/4

I do think there is some lag. Maybe half could come from domestic placing.
You could leave euro points as is and then add 3 for first the second national place 2 for third and fourth and 1 for fifth and sixth.
That way exter would be given bonus for doing good in league but not bath.
would give advantage to Rabo though so none starter and couldn't do it on place as low ranked french and english would be inflated

beshocked wrote:Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

No. Sarries guaranteed tier 3. Biarritz are nowhere unless they win the Amlin.

The rankings don't lie. They show the teams that have done well over the last 4 years. Or at least consistently got out of their group.

Biarritz were in the final 2 years ago. Cardiff have been in a quarter, then a semi, then won the Amlin, then 2nd in group, now a quarter again.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

No. Sarries guaranteed tier 3. Biarritz are nowhere unless they win the Amlin.

The rankings don't lie. They show the teams that have done well over the last 4 years. Or at least consistently got out of their group.

Biarritz were in the final 2 years ago. Cardiff have been in a quarter, then a semi, then won the Amlin, then 2nd in group, now a quarter again.

Of course the rankings lie!

Biarritz could get higher ranking points than Saracens who topped their HC pool.

You have the likes of Wasps and Bath above teams such as Saracens and Toulon.

Sides that do well in the Amlin seem to get more credit than those who qualify for the HC and proceed.


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

I prefer this list.

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

No. Sarries guaranteed tier 3. Biarritz are nowhere unless they win the Amlin.

The rankings don't lie. They show the teams that have done well over the last 4 years. Or at least consistently got out of their group.

Biarritz were in the final 2 years ago. Cardiff have been in a quarter, then a semi, then won the Amlin, then 2nd in group, now a quarter again.

Of course the rankings lie!

Biarritz could get higher ranking points than Saracens who topped their HC pool.

You have the likes of Wasps and Bath above teams such as Saracens and Toulon.

Sides that do well in the Amlin seem to get more credit than those who qualify for the HC and proceed.


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

I prefer this list.

They don't lie.

They reflect performance IN EUROPEAN COMPETITION over a 4 YEAR period. Not who you or anyone else think are the BETTER team. Not who perform well in their domestic league but fail in Europe.

Saracens have more points from this year than Biarritz. Biarritz will have to WIN the Amlin to get more.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

No. Sarries guaranteed tier 3. Biarritz are nowhere unless they win the Amlin.

The rankings don't lie. They show the teams that have done well over the last 4 years. Or at least consistently got out of their group.

Biarritz were in the final 2 years ago. Cardiff have been in a quarter, then a semi, then won the Amlin, then 2nd in group, now a quarter again.

Of course the rankings lie!

Biarritz could get higher ranking points than Saracens who topped their HC pool.

You have the likes of Wasps and Bath above teams such as Saracens and Toulon.

Sides that do well in the Amlin seem to get more credit than those who qualify for the HC and proceed.


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

I prefer this list.

They don't lie.

They reflect performance IN EUROPEAN COMPETITION over a 4 YEAR period. Not who you or anyone else think are the BETTER team. Not who perform well in their domestic league but fail in Europe.

Saracens have more points from this year than Biarritz. Biarritz will have to WIN the Amlin to get more.

Of course they lie. They don't take into account - opposition strength,domestic league positions, artificially inflated Amlin points.

Domestic league positions is important because English and French clubs have to qualify in the first place. No credit is given to English and French sides for continually getting into the HC in the first place.

English sides don't have the luxury of auto qualification for the HC. For example Edinburgh has put all their emphasis on the HC, look at their Pro 12 form. A English side could not do that.

You have the flawed European ranking system where Biarritz can be ranked as a tier 1 side but are 10th in the top 14.

Of course none of this would matter to a Leinster fan whose team stands at the top.

The ranking is important because the two sides to avoid are Leinster and Clermont.

Any method used will lead to inequalities.

Yes the Amlin rewards teams too much.

But you know what - there will always be teams that you want to avoid and those you want to meet. Getting to the semi-finals is eminently possible as a team in the 3rd pool - demonstrated by ulster and Edinburgh this season. Ulster were paired with the runners up from English and French leagues (and recent league winners) beating both, then progressed to wqin away to the Rabo champions. As Greg #Wallace might say (yes I watch Masterchef0 "Heineken Rugby does not get harder than that".

Edinburgh may have had an easier pool - but topped it and then beat the reigning French champions.

One thing that does annoy me is in the Amlin the 2-4 get the same number of points ie none.

If they did

HC
1=8
2=6
3=4
4=2

1/4 home=2 Away=3
1/2 Home =2 Away=3

Final as is

Amlin
1=4
2=3
3=2
4=1

1/4 Home=1 away=2
1/2 Home=1 away=2

final same

winners of Amlin automatic tier 2 unless a tier 1 anyway

If you take into acount league placing or country placing it would make it hard for Saracens to break into the top tier or even second as they would be so far ahead with all the extra points they get each year. only Cardiff might be affected from tier one.

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

No. Sarries guaranteed tier 3. Biarritz are nowhere unless they win the Amlin.

The rankings don't lie. They show the teams that have done well over the last 4 years. Or at least consistently got out of their group.

Biarritz were in the final 2 years ago. Cardiff have been in a quarter, then a semi, then won the Amlin, then 2nd in group, now a quarter again.

Of course the rankings lie!

Biarritz could get higher ranking points than Saracens who topped their HC pool.

You have the likes of Wasps and Bath above teams such as Saracens and Toulon.

Sides that do well in the Amlin seem to get more credit than those who qualify for the HC and proceed.


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

I prefer this list.

They don't lie.

They reflect performance IN EUROPEAN COMPETITION over a 4 YEAR period. Not who you or anyone else think are the BETTER team. Not who perform well in their domestic league but fail in Europe.

Saracens have more points from this year than Biarritz. Biarritz will have to WIN the Amlin to get more.

Of course they lie. They don't take into account - opposition strength,domestic league positions, artificially inflated Amlin points.

Domestic league positions is important because English and French clubs have to qualify in the first place. No credit is given to English and French sides for continually getting into the HC in the first place.

English sides don't have the luxury of auto qualification for the HC. For example Edinburgh has put all their emphasis on the HC, look at their Pro 12 form. A English side could not do that.

You have the flawed European ranking system where Biarritz can be ranked as a tier 1 side but are 10th in the top 14.

Of course none of this would matter to a Leinster fan whose team stands at the top.

The ranking is important because the two sides to avoid are Leinster and Clermont.

you are really not getting the point of these rankings are you?

Dear J McL,

The point of the rankings is of course to falsely reward Leinster who are undeserving of top place as they have achieved nothing of merit whilst at the same time making it impossible for new clubs to make an impression. this closed shop means that the tournament can only ever be won by a team from the Top pool of seeds. After all that is all we have left - isn't it?

I would love to see an open draw or have to tiers and you put two in from each tier.

To balance it out you could put all 1/4 in the top tier allowing for last year's teams to be rewarded but keep the points as is.

People also forget Leinster were not highly rated and sars will be after next year.

Ulster were low and rightly so because of being so poor for ten years.

just like Cmount and Ulster their are always teams rising just like Bath are falling

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cardiff and Biarritz in tier 1? Bath in tier 2? Are you joking?

Could Sarries be tier 4? That would be funny.

No. Sarries guaranteed tier 3. Biarritz are nowhere unless they win the Amlin.

The rankings don't lie. They show the teams that have done well over the last 4 years. Or at least consistently got out of their group.

Biarritz were in the final 2 years ago. Cardiff have been in a quarter, then a semi, then won the Amlin, then 2nd in group, now a quarter again.

Of course the rankings lie!

Biarritz could get higher ranking points than Saracens who topped their HC pool.

You have the likes of Wasps and Bath above teams such as Saracens and Toulon.

Sides that do well in the Amlin seem to get more credit than those who qualify for the HC and proceed.


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

I prefer this list.

They don't lie.

They reflect performance IN EUROPEAN COMPETITION over a 4 YEAR period. Not who you or anyone else think are the BETTER team. Not who perform well in their domestic league but fail in Europe.

Saracens have more points from this year than Biarritz. Biarritz will have to WIN the Amlin to get more.

Of course they lie. They don't take into account - opposition strength,domestic league positions, artificially inflated Amlin points.

Domestic league positions is important because English and French clubs have to qualify in the first place. No credit is given to English and French sides for continually getting into the HC in the first place.

English sides don't have the luxury of auto qualification for the HC. For example Edinburgh has put all their emphasis on the HC, look at their Pro 12 form. A English side could not do that.

You have the flawed European ranking system where Biarritz can be ranked as a tier 1 side but are 10th in the top 14.

Of course none of this would matter to a Leinster fan whose team stands at the top.

The ranking is important because the two sides to avoid are Leinster and Clermont.

you are really not getting the point of these rankings are you?

Actually, he has a point.

You also could do it by country and mulitly by six nation place

So wales gets 3x6 so 18 points so they could divide it 7,6 and 5 for their three

England 7x5 = 35

Ireland 4x4= 16

France 6x3=18

Italy 2x2 =4

Scotland 2x1=2

but that would really mess things up but I don't see how else you can add in country

My favoured solution is to keep the points system but apply a multiplier so that recent form (ie last season) is more valued than form 4 years ago.

LondonTiger wrote:Dear J McL,

The point of the rankings is of course to falsely reward Leinster who are undeserving of top place as they have achieved nothing of merit whilst at the same time making it impossible for new clubs to make an impression. this closed shop means that the tournament can only ever be won by a team from the Top pool of seeds. After all that is all we have left - isn't it?

That's a whole different issue. What you are saying is that there should be NO seedings. The point of seeding is not to have easy and hard pools.

If it was an open draw you could get 4 top tier teams in one pool and 4 bottom tier in another.

All I am saying is. The ranking is only measuring performance in European competition over 4 years. As this is EXACTLY what it does, then by definition it cannot lie.

It is not there to measure domestic league performance. Or who believes they are hard done by in the setup.

The only thing you could really argue about is the weighting given to the Amlin and the HC. Perhaps that could be tweaked a little. I don't think it is that far wrong.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I am happy with the current system.

LondonTiger wrote:Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I am happy with the current system.

Well you obviously were in the first bit. But I have always felt that that seedings are always biased in favour of the champs and top seeds. So I was adressing that point in the 2nd part of your post.

It can reward the top seeds, but as Clermont were in the second pool, and Ulster and Embra in the 3rd pool it is eminently possible to make the semis from a lower position.


Anyone remember the previous system where the top seeds were the national champions of each country.

LondonTiger wrote:
Anyone remember the previous system where the top seeds were the national champions of each country.

Jasus. Beshocked would fecken love that!

ah, but then Sarries could not be paired with Treviso.

These are the ERC rankings as they currently stand:

Figures are shown as of the HC and Amlin quarter finals, so teams that have been eliminated have their points 'fixed' as indicated, whereas those still in the competitions (marked in bold) can still improve their ranking.

Leinster Rugby	36
Toulouse	27
Munster Rugby	23
Biarritz	21
Cardiff Blues	20
Northampton Saints	20
Clermont Auvergne	18
Leicester Tigers	17
Stade Francais	17
Ulster Rugby	15
Harlequins	15
Toulon	14
Edinburgh	12
Ospreys	12
London Wasps	12
Perpignan	11
Bath	10
Glasgow Warriors	9
Scarlets	9
Saracens	8
Brive	8
Gloucester	7
London Irish	6
Connacht	6
Sale Sharks	5
Bourgoin	5
Benetton Treviso	4
Castres [td]Olympique	4
Montpellier	3
Newport Gwent Dragons	3
Newcastle Falcons	3
Racing Métro 92	3
Aironi Rugby	2
Worcester Warriors	2
La Rochelle	2
Exeter Chiefs	2
Viadana	1
Montauban	1
Rugby Calvisano	1
Bristol	0
Leeds Carnegie	0

For the winners of the respective semi finals, add the following points to the above scores:
HC Winner - add 4 points
HC Runner Up - add 2 points
Amlin Winner - add 2 points
HC Runner Up - 1 points