Clev

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/17448826

JabMachineMK2 wrote:I suppose "The Ring" is the only actual champion, but that still means there are too many weight classes.

Cut it from 17 to 6.

Make them

Bantamweight - Anything from Straw to Bantamweight - just under a stone in weight difference.

Featherweight - Anything from Super bantam to Lightweight

Welterweight - anything from Light Welterweight to Super Welterweight

Middleweight - anything from Middleweight to Super Middleweight.

Light heavy - combine LHW and Cruiserweight

Heavyweight.

I think that would make much better matchups and champions. Union - are you able to work out who would be ring champion in that scenario for each weight or am I asking a cheeky question ....

Hang on - you'd make the Welterweight limit 154? With a band from 140-154 - meanwhile MW is only 160-168! You crazy, fool!

Anyway - Union would probably be able to tell you who would be Ring champ, reverse lineal champ, Olympic reverse lineal champ - however, he claims to be married and on behalf of all at 606v2, we'd like to keep things that way.

Two for free - WladiK would be HW champ under your system, with no champ between LHW and CW.

Current Ring Champs are :

HW - Wlad
CW - Hernandez
LHW - Hopkins
SMW - Ward
MW - Martinez
LMW - vacant
WW - vacant
LWW - vacant
LW - Marquez
SFW - vacant
FW - vacant
SBW - vacant
BW - vacant
Fly - Sonny Boy Jaro
LFly - vacant

Frightening number of "vacant" on that list.

We've gone from too many world champions to not enough!

Lightweight is probably soon to be vacant also now with Marquez moving up.

Not quite sure how Hernandez has managed to be Ring champion at cruiserweight?

They awarded it after he beat Cunningham again, presumably they were ranked #1 and #2 at the time?

manos de piedra wrote:Lightweight is probably soon to be vacant also now with Marquez moving up.

Not quite sure how Hernandez has managed to be Ring champion at cruiserweight?

Cos he beat Steve Cunningham twice?

One of my biggest gripes is the amount of weight classes lower down. 9 divisions and 36 major titles to choose from between minimumweight and lightweight is outrageous and I believe seriously dilutes the talent pool down there. Makes it very hard to follow the lower divisions aswell and easy to keep top fighters away from each other.

Certainly agree that there could / should be a reduction in the weight classes - think cutting them all the way down to six is a bit extreme, though! Do away with Light-Flyweight and Super-Flyweight would be my first suggestion; a difference of 3 / 4 lb between them and the divisions either side of them says it all, really. No need for them. Carbajal, Gonzalez, Galaxy etc would all have been fine at the full blown Fly and Bantam limits, of that I'm sure.

Super-Bantamweight probably wouldn't be all that missed, either. The division is almost four decades old and hasn't really produced that many great champions of note. Gomez, Morales and Barrera stand out, but that's not an awfully good return over such an amount of time. Zaragoza, Bungu and the like all fine fighters, too, but not enough to convince me that the division is entirely needed. Wouldn't be too fussed either way if the 122 lb weight class stayed or went.

Can't bring myself to say the same about Super-Featherweight or Light-Welterweight, which have been the two best divisions outside of the original eight by a country mile. Super-Middleweight hasn't always been that great, but a gap of 15 lb between Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight is considerable, so I'd keep it in place. Unfortunately, Cruiserweight is also saved by the age of the 'Super-Heavyweight.' Usually a poor division in terms of quality, but there'll always be an abundance of fighters around the fourteen / fifteen stone mark who are too big for 175 lb but who also can't mix with the behemoths we see today. Sadly, it is the extra division which arguably makes the most sense.

Your probably right that beating Cunninham twice is how he got it but it seems fairly weak basis. Cunningham wasnt a lineal champion.

The division seems to be populated by several guys of similar standard and none of the titles are unified so having a Ring champion in that division seems a bit premature. I dont think Hernandez has really done anything other than beat Cunningham in the division which isnt enough for me unless Cunningham was actually the Ring champion himself or at least the lineal one. I dont think he was though as Adamek beating him and moving up would have vacated it. Probably one of the rarer occasions when I disagree with the Ring on that.

There is no real need to have more than nine divisions, the eight classics and perversely give how awful it normally is would keep cruiser, the gap between the average heavy and 175 is just too big to bridge now. Have heard people say it would be too difficult for people to skip divisions, to which all I can say is it is meant to be.

You go back far enough and the only three weight world champions were Fitz and Armstrong, giants of the games and top ten P4Pers, nowadays Duke McKenzie is one, too many belts and divisions totally cheapens such acheivements. Lets keep division hopping for actual great fighters, if you go back to eight or nine does anyone doubt Floyd would have still been able to go from light to welter or Jones would have been able to do middle and light heavy, I don't because they have genuine ability which is what it should take to do the extraordinary.

What people often forget in all this is if a guy is fighting at light heavy he does not have to come in at 175, he can come in at 161 if he chooses, am fairly certain Greb did not come in bang on the 175 limit every time, in fact would doubt he ever did, there are such things as tactics and ability you can rely on to compensate for the gap in size.

Do away with any division that contains the name super or junior.

88Chris05 wrote:Certainly agree that there could / should be a reduction in the weight classes - think cutting them all the way down to six is a bit extreme, though! Do away with Light-Flyweight and Super-Flyweight would be my first suggestion; a difference of 3 / 4 lb between them and the divisions either side of them says it all, really. No need for them. Carbajal, Gonzalez, Galaxy etc would all have been fine at the full blown Fly and Bantam limits, of that I'm sure.

Super-Bantamweight probably wouldn't be all that missed, either. The division is almost four decades old and hasn't really produced that many great champions of note. Gomez, Morales and Barrera stand out, but that's not an awfully good return over such an amount of time. Zaragoza, Bungu and the like all fine fighters, too, but not enough to convince me that the division is entirely needed. Wouldn't be too fussed either way if the 122 lb weight class stayed or went.

Can't bring myself to say the same about Super-Featherweight or Light-Welterweight, which have been the two best divisions outside of the original eight by a country mile. Super-Middleweight hasn't always been that great, but a gap of 15 lb between Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight is considerable, so I'd keep it in place. Unfortunately, Cruiserweight is also saved by the age of the 'Super-Heavyweight.' Usually a poor division in terms of quality, but there'll always be an abundance of fighters around the fourteen / fifteen stone mark who are too big for 175 lb but who also can't mix with the behemoths we see today. Sadly, it is the extra division which arguably makes the most sense.

For historical or traditional purposes I dont mind keeping the original 8 intact - although Id be kind of curious to see if a revamped weight structure proposal might be more efficient.

But for the more modern divisions I would have no problem ditching or altering them. I wouldnt have any attachment to them on the basis of them producing good fighters in the past. Strangely, with light welter I thinks its housed many a top fighter but few seem to have produced a lasting legacy there - JCC, Locche and possibly Cervantes being exceptions but most other top fighters seemed to spend little more than a pit stop there on the way up to Welter and beyond and sometimes in the cases of Hatton and Tszyu Ive got the feeling its been something of a hiding place from the traditionally much stronger divisions of welter and lightweight.

I'm not one to mock those who are not here to defend themselves, but what about johnson2's idea of doing away with weight classes altogether and just have 'boxing'?

After all, they don't have basketball for short people.

EIGHT DEBUTANTS!

Perhaps change the limits? 10 divisions but a slightly higher upper limit, add extra 3-5lbs in each division or in proportion to the average size increase over the last 50 years. Also no fighter qualifies for a voluntary/mandatory title shot without having 5 bouts at the weight.

[quote="88Chris05"]Certainly agree that there could / should be a reduction in the weight classes - think cutting them all the way down to six is a bit extreme, though! Do away with Light-Flyweight and Super-Flyweight would be my first suggestion; a difference of 3 / 4 lb between them and the divisions either side of them says it all, really. No need for them. Carbajal, Gonzalez, Galaxy etc would all have been fine at the full blown Fly and Bantam limits, of that I'm sure.
quote]

Whilst I agree entirely, Chris, the one thing I would say is that an all time great in Ricardo Lopez never weighed more than 108lbs. I am certainly no expert in human physiology, but for a guy whose ideal fighting weight was probably nearer 105lbs, asking him to compete at 112lbs may have been too much. Who knows, someone like Lopez may have just been good enough to compete any any weight below 115lbs but it is worth considering.

I appreciate that one oustanding fighter like El Finito is not enough justifcation for keeping strawweight, but worth thinking about.

Fair points, Manos, though I'd throw in the names of Pryor, Berg and Loi to add to Light-Welterweight's credentials.

I fully understand people yearning for a return to eight (or, as there were in the days of three-weight champions like Ross and Canzoneri, ten) weight divisions, but I think it would represent a little too radical a change at this stage, particularly with weight ins taking place thirty-six hours before a fight. Imagine we get rid of Light-Middleweight - we could end up with a man whose best fighting weight (on fight night) is somewhere around 160 lb being forced in to the Middleweight division to try and wrestle the title from a 180 lb (on fight night) Chavez Jr.

With those conditions in mind, the best I'd be able to come up with would be something like this:

Flyweight = Anything below or including 112 lb
Bantamweight = 113 - 118 lb
Featherweight = 119 - 126 lb
Lightweight = 127 - 135 lb
Light-Welterweight = 136 - 140 lb
Welterweight = 141 - 147 lb
Light-Middleweight = 148 - 154 lb
Middleweight = 155 - 160 lb
Super-Middleweight = 161 - 168 lb
Light-Heavyweight = 169 - 175 lb
Cruiserweight = 176 - 200 lb
Heavyweight = Anything over 200 lb

Twelve divisions wouldn't be too bad, I'd think. See, I've even had the heart to get rid of my beloved Super-Featherweight class!

Does there need to be a lower limit?

88Chris05 wrote:. Imagine we get rid of Light-Middleweight - we could end up with a man whose best fighting weight (on fight night) is somewhere around 160 lb being forced in to the Middleweight division to try and wrestle the title from a 180 lb (on fight night) Chavez Jr.
!

Assumes us stick in the muds would not want a return to day of the fight weigh ins chris. Suffice to say I for one would prefer weigh ins on the day of the fight.

Introduce the UFC weight limts

Weight class name Upper limit
Flyweight 125 lbs
Bantamweight 135 lbs
Featherweight 145 lbs
Lightweight 155 lbs
Welterweight 170 lbs
Middleweight 185 lbs
Light Heavyweight 205
Heavyweight 265
Super Heavyweight No weight limit


However that's far too sensible and works fine for a single promoting body like the UFC but won't work with the 5,000 boxing sanctioning in existence

I still think 6 would be brilliant - I know I'm making a big jump between the Welterweight limits and the middleweights, but if you look at the talent in LWW I believe they have some claim to LMW/SWW opposition also despite a gulf in weight. I see Ortiz as being a very big WW, more a LMW and i see Pacquiao as a very small WW more towards LWW - in my new weight category, Khan could fight Floyd at any weight he chooses up to 154 and Floyd can be any weight he wants, probably closer to 149 and Khan around 143/144

It'd get rid of catchweights, it'd give fighters the legacy because people won't say "x forced x to x weight" while still being relatively safe.

(sticky subject tread carefully JM, careful)

I've sparred as a smaller middleweight/big welterweight with some of the smaller welters and to be honest, the size doesn't play as much of a part as you imagine. Of course, the size difference between middleweight and heavyweight is extreme - but a stone isn't that much of advantage that I've noticed.

True but in the pro ranks a stone can give a good fighter too much of an advantage over a great fighter and tends to leave the skillset redundant.

If I was restructuring the weight classes Id go:

HW: 200lb+
CW: 185lb-200lb
LH: 170lb-185lb
MW: 155lb-170lb
WW: 145lb-155lb
LW: 135lb-145lb
FW: 125lb-135lb
BW: 118lb-125lb
FLW: 112lb-118lb
MW: below 112lb

10 weight classes in all.

I dunno Shah, I'd fancy Pacquiao against Chavez personally, and that breaks into my weight classes considerably!

rowley wrote:You do all know there is no obligation to watch Cleverly? If you all feel his opposition is that poor you can just ignore him, it is not like there are not enough world champions out there to follow, some weight classes have four or five. Rather than get all wound up just take the approach I have to him which is pretty much wake me up when he fights someone.

Yes but I don't watch him anyway unless it's a repeat on Youtube. Won't pay Boxnation for that! And I like to have a good moan about boxing as I'm seriously under utilised in work at the moment. Actually Rowley, send me some of your work on immigration planning or whatever it is you do, I'm sure no-one will mind!

Chavez would hurt Pacquiao though, genuinely batter him senseless, he might win on points but it probably end him. Chavez is a different sort of animal to morales and co. Being rather easy to hit agasinst chavez = early retirement.

Nah, Chavez wouldn't be able to hit Pacquiao. He's too slow. He'd have to club through Pacquiao and honestly, he'd take a lot of punishment.

I use that comparison because there s a lad at our gym who is a little smaller than me, about 146 - and he spars with a semi-pro full on middleweight who's closer to 163, 164 and does damn well.

Don't get me wrong D, am in no way saying I like the clev situation or folk should not be moaning about it but just think the reaction is a bit disproportionate, boxing has been riddled for a number of years with undeserving fighters calling themselves world champions who have no intention of fighting the best in their weight but all of a sudden Clev does it and we're like a pitchfork weilding mob round here.

That to me suggests a number of things, Clev's abuse of the system is worse than other fightes have been, not really the case, we have only just realised this happens, extremely unlikely or alternatively some people (not directed at you) are going on and on about it because they know it will wind other users up, sorry to say I do think the latter option has more than a nub of truth to it.

Which Chavez are we talking about?

The overrated legend or the chip off the old block non-entity?

The shameless ducker "Middleweight/cruiserweight" who doesn't follow the rules of drug testing.

That to me suggests a number of things, Clev's abuse of the system is worse than other fightes have been, not really the case, we have only just realised this happens, extremely unlikely or alternatively some people (not directed at you) are going on and on about it because they know it will wind other users up, sorry to say I do think the latter option has more than a nub of truth to it. .

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This is where I disagree. I really think Cleverly is about the worst British champion I've seen in terms of world title fights. Sure the WBO has been very kind to British boxers in letting them get off with easier fights than normal but at least, off the top of my head fighters like, Calzaghe, Steve Robinson, Ricky Burns, Scott HArrison have fought some trash but mixed it up with some genuinely recogniseable names or decent quality opponents. Cleverly has failed to match up to any named fighters or decent fighters this in now his fourth championship fight.

I know this has been going on for years with the influx of British champs we've had since the WBO came along but I can't think of anyone worse than Cleverly at the moment with respect to the quality of opponents. I honestly think he's taken it to a new found low.

It's academic to me though D, if you are a world champion you should be trying to face the best in your weight, if you are not doing that the distance by which you are failing to do so is not something that I really care about.

Yeah Rowley, as you know I'm quite tolerant of the alphabet boys so long as they fight the best available or at least stretch themsleves with challenging fights. Cleverly for me is doing neither.

Fair enough, I though you were talking JCC because hes the LWW king more or less. Big Chavez would probably beat pacquiao though. Slow as he is, he can hit moderatly hard and he weighs 185 ish come fight night. That at a catchweight would genuinely be someone half dead from weight draining fighting pac whic wouldnt mean anything at all.

Pacquiao would be finished by Chavez, you would talking about a weight difference of about 34lbs which at their respective weights is huge and unsurpassable, big difference in talent but not enough to overcome the size, he wouldn't be able to hurt while being hurt any time he's hit.

I would like the original 8 weight classes personally, great fighters overcame the weight differences within divisions before so no reason why they wouldn't now. I like the 130lb and 140lb divisions but there is really no need for them nor is there a need to cruiserweight when it's only ever had one great fighter.

It irritates me that Cotto is a 3 weight world champion while someone like Gavilan is a one weight world champion despite being a far superior boxer. Would be harsh on the likes of Pryor and McCallum but their legacies would have been greater were they not renowned for their junior weight exploits.

I think its a really really really bad idea to change the weight classes, they were introduced to try and improve safety in boxing. No issues at all with the weight classes, just the number of belts.

They were brought in so the organisations could profit more, it had nothing to do with safety.

I actually think in this modern age that a few of the categories are necessary. I like the super-middleweights and the cruiserweights.

There have been many talented boxers that couldn't make it anywhere because they were either too big or too small for one of the original 8. For example, I've often felt Errol Christie would have been ideal at Super middleweight and could have had a great career but the division came too late for him. Instead he came in as a drained middlewieght and ended getting knocked out a few times and not realising his potential.

The gap between Light heavy and heavy is a whopping 25lbs so I think the cruiser divsision is a good thing, shame it never took off.

The weights that bother me are all these silly junior flyweight, strawweight, super bantamweight rubbish at the lower ends where there's a bag of sugar between the weight classes.

175.1lb used to be heavyweight territory not 200lbs but my biggest problem with Cruiserweight is how useless 99% of it's champions have been. I personally like the bigger gaps between divisions because it becomes more about talent than ability to drain down an extra few pounds.

Good point I agree.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:175.1lb used to be heavyweight territory not 200lbs but my biggest problem with Cruiserweight is how useless 99% of it's champions have been. I personally like the bigger gaps between divisions because it becomes more about talent than ability to drain down an extra few pounds.

Yeah like I said it's a shame but I do like the idea of the division. I don't think Holyfield would have been a good heavyweight without plying his trade at his more natural weight class first.

Steffan wrote:Cleverly is single handedly destroying boxing. I hope he has a really bad injury that ruins his career and he never fights again

bit over the top no?

He's a horrible anti-welsh racist/nationalist who cant even fathom anything good coming out of that country. Absolutely hates Calzaghe and cleverly and gavin rees. He wants the queen to declare war on wales and smite the heathens down. Even this would not sate his anger, and he hates the fact that he has been posted there to teach and dig deep for HM Forces. Guy Needs to get a perspective and stop his blatant nuthuggery of Carlo Froch.

ShahenshahG wrote:He's a horrible anti-welsh racist/nationalist who cant even fathom anything good coming out of that country. Absolutely hates Calzaghe and cleverly and gavin rees. He wants the queen to declare war on wales and smite the heathens down. Even this would not sate his anger, and he hates the fact that he has been posted there to teach and dig deep for HM Forces. Guy Needs to get a perspective and stop his blatant nuthuggery of Carlo Froch.

Steffan why do you dislike the Welsh so much?

Sugar Floyd Louis wrote: Steffan why do you dislike the Welsh so much?

They make me sick thats why. Nathan Cleverly is a perfect example of the disgrace to mankind they are. And they like rugby. I mean who the hell would wanna watch that pile of egg chasing rubbish. Says it all about them

Steffan wrote:

Sugar Floyd Louis wrote: Steffan why do you dislike the Welsh so much?

They make me sick thats why. Nathan Cleverly is a perfect example of the disgrace to mankind they are. And they like rugby. I mean who the hell would wanna watch that pile of egg chasing rubbish. Says it all about them

Twll dy dîn di.

martyr_94 wrote:Twll dy dîn di.

Dim ers fy nyddiau carchar

Maybes I'm missing something here, but why is the majority getting there knickers in a twist all of a sudden.

As others alluded Cleverley is certainly not the first to embark on meaningless defences, Eubank gets lauded and he fought some of the most mediocre fighters in his Sky days.

Too many divisions and a ridiculous amount of belts we all know that, but don't just beat Clev with that, we've had fighters over the last 20 years doing exactly the same.