Why not have some Welsh bias for the Lions tour??

First topic message reminder :

I think it's about time we had some fairness in the British (AND IRISH) Lions after recent calamities.

Wales were clearly the best (by a country mile) in 2005 and Clive Woodward screwed us over big time. He took a party of 934 and screwed over anyone Welsh. He also left the 2 biggest stars in world rugby at the time (Henson and Williams) out of the starting 22 for the first test against NZ.

Woodward and that tour were a complete joke a disgrace to rugby.

If the Lions were picked today it would basically be:

The Wales team
Sexton or Farrell
One or two massive Scottish forwards (faletau on bench)
Tommy Bowe to start with Cuthbert on the bench

Obviously the Lions is in 2013 so I'm sure a few Welsh players will be out of form in a years time and a few more English Irish and Scottish players can stamp a claim for the tour.

If Wales win the Six Nations again in 2013 the don't be surprised to see a tour party dominated by Welsh as they will clearly deserve it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also there are some ridiculous posts here regarding Tuilagi..

You're right, saying he'd br 4th or 5th choice at centre is ludicrous.

My personal favourite was that if he was playing for a welsh region, he would have ended up playing for Samoa.

Well, put it this way, He wouldn't have got a Welsh cap in front of Scott Williams or Ashley Beck.

One key question.

Why would Gatland show Welsh bias?

It is not in his interest as Welsh coach, as we all know the Lions rugby nations suffer the following season and usually France takes the following six nations.

I think Gatland should be sneaky and put very little Welsh in the team, maybe put a few English, Irish and Scots out of position? Sexton, Farrell, Youngs have the making of a great front row. Dan Cole at Fullback anyone?

Once his watched the injuries pile up, put his Welsh boys into the mix for the final test to soak up all the glory and everyone will forget everything he did.

Or he could play a heavy contingent of Welsh players and watch the injuries roll in and put his day job at risk?

So Lions or Wales ,,, whose your daddy?

Gatland won't be able to show bias one way or t'other.

With Wales going to Australia this summer, the world and his wife will be able to see what players are up to the task and which ones aren't. If Gatland wins even one test there will be both justification and expectation to hang onto the bulk of the side.

The Great Aukster wrote:Gatland won't be able to show bias one way or t'other.

With Wales going to Australia this summer, the world and his wife will be able to see what players are up to the task and which ones aren't. If Gatland wins even one test there will be both justification and expectation to hang onto the bulk of the side.

What England or the Irish win a match or even their whole series? Are SA and NZ now irrelevant competition? You can only beat whats infront of you.

nobbled wrote:

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:Well I don't really care what you guys think.

Wales were treated unfairly in 2005 and Karma works funny ways. It's just nice to see that Wales are the best in Europe anyway at the moment so if the team is dominated by Welsh you won't be able to moan and it won't be a surprise.

Any fish to go with that giant chip?

Agree nobbled............. what a load of CODswallop

No salt and vinegar

and I'll have a tango............ but not the 2005 vintage! (2 or 3 good games per season don't make a vintage don't make me larrrrf)

2 Scots.... come on mate, I understand being upset and pessimistic about your team but (at present) that would be a mugging. I really dont think Scotland have been that bad.
We cant know now, but I think this lions will be very evenly mixed.
With regards to the english players, Tuilagi I think is a cert, Ashton is the most overated player in that team, I agree maybe Tuilagi isnt the most skilled footballer but when he gets the ball u feel something might happen-he worries the opposition.

thebluesmancometh wrote:You say you were unlucky not to win the championship, I say you were lucky to finish 2nd.

We have differing opinions, but you cannot honestly say you could pick 12 English men who deserve a place over Welsh Irish and Scot counterparts!!!

Infact go on, it's a challenge...

Short memory
You need to watch the Ire v Wal match again.............. Pen in the dying seconds otherwise you would have lost, Ireland tbh in most peoples eyes just shaded it
You need to watch the Eng v Wal match again............... I would say Wales were fortunate to win that match, at the very least it should have been a draw

Looking ahead to 2013 I would say if the Lions take 40 players with England potential development of their young squad Ireland (Kearney, Bowe, Best, Ferris, Ryan, O'Brien, Heaslip, POC, BOD) and even Scotland (Gray, Rennie, Denton, Scott, Hogg)

I would say based on the overall potential player (not team) performances in the 6Ns

England 10
Ireland 12
Scotland 6
Wales 12

3rdGrandslamcame = Westernosprey, flopspreys, bigballbag etc....

Thought the mods banned this clown?

Equo Troiano wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also there are some ridiculous posts here regarding Tuilagi..

You're right, saying he'd br 4th or 5th choice at centre is ludicrous.

Its all about opinion

Jon Davies (in my mind a 12) was the best centre in the 6Ns
Barrit was a revelation
Roberts smack on form and suddenly scoring and making tries as well as been a battering ram

they IMHO were ahead of Manu

Then you have potential
Scott (Scotland)
Scott Williams (Wales)

So not so rediculous to say he might be 4th choice, then again dependant on form he could be first choice

I think your being a bit pessemistic you know fhf. I could quite easily see Gray, Denton, Rennie as first choice lions, Either Blair or Cussiter could be first choice scrum halfs. Ford should be in with a shout at hooker. A team like below would be very tasty.

1. Gethin
2. Smiler
3. Adam J
4 POC
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Rennie
8. Denton
9. Blair
10. Sexton
11. Cuthbert
12. JD
13. BOD
14. North
15. Kearney.

16. James
17. Ford
18. AWJ
19. Warbs
20. Phillips
21. Farrell
22. Halfpenny

offload wrote:

offload wrote:

Impossible Standards wrote:3Grandslams..... I fear for where this thread will end

Hopefully it will never get going.

Hope abandoned me

Over 100 posts and three pages in...........

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also there are some ridiculous posts here regarding Tuilagi..

You're right, saying he'd br 4th or 5th choice at centre is ludicrous.

My personal favourite was that if he was playing for a welsh region, he would have ended up playing for Samoa.

Well, put it this way, He wouldn't have got a Welsh cap in front of Scott Williams or Ashley Beck.

So why aren't they ahead of Tuilagi for the lions if they are so good? Beck is a 12 btw, as is Davies, as is Roberts. Williams hasn't shown anything to suggest he is a better player than Tuilagi is. Maybe if Tuilagi was welsh they wouldn't have to play two 12s

If Tuilagi was Welsh he would have had to learn to pass to get a game at all !

The centre pairing seems to be a hot debate.

JD2 and Tuilagi together???? Both great open field runners but neither could hit the side of a barn with a pass. If they were inside it. So the wings are there just to chase kicks?

BOD???! Because he is a 'genuine legend' presumably. Adam Jones is quicker over the ground nowadays.

Isn't 12. Roberts and 13. JD2/Tuilagi - makes little difference, one runs round defenders and the other runs through... the only option on current form?

offload wrote:If Tuilagi was Welsh he would have had to learn to pass to get a game at all !

Since when were the welsh centres such good passers??

Though I do think Davies has improved in that area of his game.. best centre in the 6 nations.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

offload wrote:If Tuilagi was Welsh he would have had to learn to pass to get a game at all !

Since when were the welsh centres such good passers??

Though I do think Davies has improved in that area of his game.. best centre in the 6 nations.

He is improving with confidence, it would be nice to see the Scarlets pick J Davies at 13 instead of 12. He would develop faster for Wales, the Scarlets already have a few good inside centres in Williams and Warren.

Why not have some Welsh bias for the Lions tour??

Well you could have some Welsh bias for the Lions tour, if you was picking a lions squad based on this years 6ns. But the Lions tour is not untill next year, and who is to say how the Welsh players will be playing next year eh.

No fan should no matter what country they are should try a pick a lions squad right now. They should atleats wait untill the 2013 6ns is over, they will then have a better chance of seeing who is on form, or who is injured.

Their has been a lot of talk about Sam Warbutton being the Lions captain. But seem as he get injured alot will he actualy go on the Lions tour? Should Gatland run the risk of taken an injury prone player?

Especialy if that player is going to be Captain, surely you would want your Captain avalible for (EVERY) game.

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

offload wrote:If Tuilagi was Welsh he would have had to learn to pass to get a game at all !

Since when were the welsh centres such good passers??

Though I do think Davies has improved in that area of his game.. best centre in the 6 nations.

He is improving with confidence, it would be nice to see the Scarlets pick J Davies at 13 instead of 12. He would develop faster for Wales, the Scarlets already have a few good inside centres in Williams and Warren.

Isn't Davies the 12 and Williams the 13? Davies would be much better suited to playing 12 for Wales IMO. Although this is unfortunate for Roberts, I think Davies is the better player and can do what Roberts does, but he has the guile and foot speed to go with it.

majesticimperialman
You have mentioned Warburton being injury prone on a few occasions.
The guy is a 7 he puts his body on the line to try and win the ball and of course he will occasionally get injured it's par for the course in his position
He is the best 7 we have so there is no chance in hell that he will not get selected if uninjured.
If you are going to judge players on being injured then our tour party will consist of third raters who are not 100% committed.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

offload wrote:If Tuilagi was Welsh he would have had to learn to pass to get a game at all !

Since when were the welsh centres such good passers??

Though I do think Davies has improved in that area of his game.. best centre in the 6 nations.

Fair enough. On a serious note Rory I agree about Davies, best centre in the tournament and most improved IMO.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

offload wrote:If Tuilagi was Welsh he would have had to learn to pass to get a game at all !

Since when were the welsh centres such good passers??

Though I do think Davies has improved in that area of his game.. best centre in the 6 nations.

He is improving with confidence, it would be nice to see the Scarlets pick J Davies at 13 instead of 12. He would develop faster for Wales, the Scarlets already have a few good inside centres in Williams and Warren.

Isn't Davies the 12 and Williams the 13? Davies would be much better suited to playing 12 for Wales IMO. Although this is unfortunate for Roberts, I think Davies is the better player and can do what Roberts does, but he has the guile and foot speed to go with it.

In my opinion Davies has the better pace, more use wider. Just needs time to make the position his own.

He has great feet and guile too though, not to mention his physicality. He can punch holes, or create the gap for his outside backs. That is a very dangerous trait at 12, and Fofana I think is a good example of what a pacey and clever 12 can do.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He has great feet and guile too though, not to mention his physicality. He can punch holes, or create the gap for his outside backs. That is a very dangerous trait at 12, and Fofana I think is a good example of what a pacey and clever 12 can do.

Almost makes up for flat footed Roberts. They're becoming a decent partnership, and Williams fits in seamlessly. Though it will be interesting to see if Ashley Becks progress keeps on continuing at such a raid pace whether he can oust one of them.

Great position to be in.

Davies is diverse and full of pace as you say. But I do personally like him at 13. With a bit more bulk inside, Roberts Henson or a clever foil like Beck.

Exciting times.

TycroesOsprey wrote:I think your being a bit pessemistic you know fhf. I could quite easily see Gray, Denton, Rennie as first choice lions, Either Blair or Cussiter could be first choice scrum halfs. Ford should be in with a shout at hooker. A team like below would be very tasty.

1. Gethin
2. Smiler
3. Adam J
4 POC Charteris
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Rennie
8. Denton
9. Blair
10. Sexton
11. Cuthbert North
12. JD
13. BODBarritt
14. North Bowe
15. Kearney.

16. James
17. Ford
18. AWJ POC
19. Warbs
20. Phillips
21. Farrell
22. Halfpenny

Thats a damn good side Tycroes and I agree with Gray, Rennie, Denton. Going to put the cat among the budgies here and pick Charteris ahead of POC big call I know, but I thought Charteris played really well for Wales last season. I probably would put spikey Phillips in place of Blair to start, and unless BOD proves that he can come back from injury and play well I would play Barritt or move JD to 13 and play Roberts. I would also risk Priestland in place of Sexton as I feel that when he is on top form he can bring the backs more into the game than Sexton but it will be a really close call between Farrell, Priestland and Sexton.

Personally FHF I would have Ian Evans over PoC or Charteris but I wasnt about to start a fight with the Irish. Agree about BoD but I think he will get up for one last hurrah wth the lions. As for Bowe well its a close call and at the moment Bowe would start, However I have a feeling Cuthbert is going to be somthing special, as long as he remembers to fall on the ball when its kicked behind him.

Good call again Tycroes

Dont start a war with the Irish............. hahaha (just joking guys)

Ian Evans suprised me this 6Ns he was very very good, and I have not been a massive fan of his, as I feel like AWJ he can be a penalty waiting to happen. I just thought Charteris was just bl00dy good last season.

Didn't think Cuthbert played that well against the Scarlets both offensively or defensively last weekend, but agree he could be special

Its all about opinion

Jon Davies (in my mind a 12) was the best centre in the 6Ns
Barrit was a revelation
Roberts smack on form and suddenly scoring and making tries as well as been a battering ram

they IMHO were ahead of Manu

Listing 3 inside centres and saying they are better than an outside centre is like picking blindside flankers over an openside flanker.

Despite the condemnation from Welsh posters who apparently haven't seen Manu play he can run into space, he is not just a contact merchant. He can also pass, though this is limited, he generally doesn't unless the winger has a better chance of scoring than he does.

Here's a good example of his step (past Farrell), hand off (Joubert) and then just going through Alex Goode. From the half way line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXvVwlO1JeM

Cymroglan wrote:majesticimperialman
You have mentioned Warburton being injury prone on a few occasions.
The guy is a 7 he puts his body on the line to try and win the ball and of course he will occasionally get injured it's par for the course in his position
He is the best 7 we have so there is no chance in hell that he will not get selected if uninjured.
If you are going to judge players on being injured then our tour party will consist of third raters who are not 100% committed.

I can think of lots of 7s who have played as hard as warburton and they don't get injured as much - for a start, Martyn Williams and Richie Mccaw. Both of those were far from being third raters or not committed.

The problem with warburton is that the way he is at the moment, he will need his own personal sub if he is going to make the Lions. Australia is a long way away as well to be flying out replacements.

McCaw spends most of the game lying offiside and waving his hands - hardly gruelling work

Munkian

munkian wrote:McCaw spends most of the game lying offiside and waving his hands - hardly gruelling work

getting his head stamped on, elbows dropped on him and his eyes gouged

Shouldn't be in the way

JD2 is the best 13 in the UK and Ireland at the moment, to label him as just an inside centre is disrespecting his ability.

He was played all of his tests for Wales (barring 1 or 2) at 13. He is defensively excellant at 13, he works the rush umbrella defence brilliantly, his tackling causes turnovers and his support running in the outside channels are perfect at the moment. He's still improving, and hes not the finished article, but I think JD2 will be around the welsh team for a long while and his immediate future will stay at13.

Tuilagi is a very good young player with lots of potential, but he, like Farrell, has his limitations aswell as his strengths, why some fans refuse to realise this I have no idea. JD2 and roberts have both obviously worked hard on their games and are starting to smooth over the rough edges and bring a more complete game every series they play together. Its called development, Tuilagi is 3rd - 5th choice centre at best for the Lions.

I'd disagree with inside and outside centres being as different as that Sam, centre partnerships are all about balance. Tuilagi does for England at 13, what Roberts used to do for Wales at 12. Thats get over the gainline and provide ball on the frontfoot. JD2 at 13 plays more of a conrad smith/fourie type of game. Its all about balance.

munkian wrote:Shouldn't be in the way

Tell that to Ferris next time hes pulling someone by the head and gets bitten

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

munkian wrote:Shouldn't be in the way

Tell that to Ferris next time hes pulling someone by the head and gets bitten

O'ill be sure to tell him so

I'd disagree with inside and outside centres being as different as that Sam, centre partnerships are all about balance.

So are backrows.

Davies certainly played well at 13 during the 6N but I think he is more suited as a 12. His soft hands and tendancy to cut in whilst armed with those quick feet and serious size equip him very well to the 12 position (which is where the Scarlets utilise him). Personally I'd like to see Davies at 12 and then Manu or BOD at 13.

I wouldn't say Davies was really like Smith though. For starters Davies is 2 stone heavier and all about what he can do with the ball. Smith is all about what he can do without it, his organisational skills ability to pin point weaknesses in the opposition defence and offence as opposed to the ability to out sprint or power through. Smith's rugby brain is why he is selected and why he is bizzarely underrated by the media. Only BOD in the NH can boast the natural rugby understanding Conrad posses.

Sam

Mate that clips been done to death, I can show you a clip of Craig quinell running over Englishmen Lomu stylee, does that mean he was one of the best players in the world!!!

I'm not getting into the tuilagi argument as you all know where I stand, but I will say that if he is selected over the Welsh pairing in anyones squad you are nuts.

I also want to point out that if JD2 can't pass, how come the Welsh back 3 was the most potent in th tourny? How did the English back 3 go?

My list goes...

Roberts
Davies
Earls
Tuilagi

With all 4 traveling.

Just a quick point, with the Welsh team being lauded as the most proffesional at the world cup and the English boys disgracing themselves last time they left the country do you think this will effect Gats decision.

Bluesman, sorry, I was thinking more of Fourie with his attacking game. I should clarify my posts, speed typing in work!

Agree with what you've said about Smith and his understanding of the game.

I was thinking smith in relation to his defense at 13, its excellant, and Smith doesnt put in massive hits a la Tuilgi, but smart, strong tackles that cause turnovers and he'll make a decision of when he needs to rush out of the line. He also buzzes around the contact areas out wide making a nuisance of himself and slowing things down at the right time.

JD2's distribution at test level is coming on leaps and bounds, he was a second pivot this 6nations for the last 3 games as there was 3 defenders sprinting at priestland as soon as he touched the ball.

He's adept at both 12 and 13. It depends who you have with him, I'd have him outside Roberts/Beck but inside Scott Williams for instance.

I think Im starting to develop a bit of a mancrush for JD2, its gotta be said.

Mancrush? In that scrummie? At least 1/2p has pretty colours on his, and that little face...

My mother tells me i look like halfpenny

So does mine, but the missus tells me I look more like sloth from the goonies!

Don't always beleive what your mother tells you!

Ill believe her until the day she tells me i look like Adam Jones

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:Well I don't really care what you guys think.

Wales were treated unfairly in 2005 and Karma works funny ways. It's just nice to see that Wales are the best in Europe anyway at the moment so if the team is dominated by Welsh you won't be able to moan and it won't be a surprise.

Wales had the most tourists on the last lions tour (09) despite finishing fourth in the six nations. This year’s competition was probably the closest six nations in a long time. Wales got the slam without really hammering anyone while all other teams lost a game or two.
 
That said Wales will probably have 5 or 6 more than England or Ireland who along with Grey, possibly Denton and Hogg will make up the rest of the numbers.
 
My starting team would be:
 
Kearney
North
Drico
Roberts
Bowe
Sexton
Philips
Denton
Warburton
Ferris/Lydiate
Grey
O'Connell
Jones
Best
Jenkins

Very close to selection:

Cuthbert
Halfpenny
Farrell
Tuilagi
Cole
Robshaw
Ford
Barrett

Australia are very much there for the taking. I can see it being 3-0 to the lions.

Denton
Warburton
Ferris/Lydiate

Would have to be Ferris over Lydiate if Denton was at 8 as he doesn't do enough of the heavy carrying on his own he needs another ball carrier on the flank to get the best out of him. Hence why he looked much better at the start of the 6N when Strockosh was playing 6 as opposed to the end of the 6N when he looked out of his depth with Barclay at 6.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Denton
Warburton
Ferris/Lydiate

Would have to be Ferris over Lydiate if Denton was at 8 as he doesn't do enough of the heavy carrying on his own he needs another ball carrier on the flank to get the best out of him. Hence why he looked much better at the start of the 6N when Strockosh was playing 6 as opposed to the end of the 6N when he looked out of his depth with Barclay at 6.

Sam, the stats show that Denton carried more with Stroks on the blindside than with Barclay tho? In the first 3 games, Denton passed on average 5x/game and ran with the ball 16x per game for 51m/game being required to make on average just 4 tackles per game - however, with a chopper (Stroks), he had to up his tackle rate to 9 per game, with a drop off to 3 passes and 10 runs on average for a more meagre 33m/game. Denton needs someone that will takle all day long rather than someone else to share the load carrying, particularly if Gray is in the side and doing a load of carrying

I'm a bit confused as to the Keith Earls love in going on here, when has he played well at 13 for Ireland? More often than not he looks exactly what he is, a back 3 player playing at 13. How people can rate him over Tuilagi is beyond me.

Also for the person who was saying if we just wanted a bosher use Roberts as he is better and scores tries then implied that Tuilagi doesn't. Have you see his stats? Its something like 4/5 tries from 10ish caps, which is a very good strike rate for a centre. If you want a bosher wouldn't you also go for the more powerful, faster version of the 2? ie. tuilagi?

Ok having got all that off my chest the Lions centres will be interesting. BOD is making everyones list on reputation, I honestly think he will be left behind by Gats (I am pleased with his selection of manager, I don't think there will be much bias he seems very tough but fair). Centres for me will be JD2, Roberts, Tuilagi and maybe barritt, haven't quite worked it out yet, Earls may come along as the utility, not as a starting centre. In terms of starters, its far too early to tell but I do think it will be a combination of the wales pairing with Tuilagi in there somehow (or on the bench for late impact).

Wales will get ahead of England in the summer AIs, even though the rankings have Oz above SA they are not as strong IMO and I fancy wales to take the series. England will take a game in SA but no more.

I also see the Aussies as being ripe for the taking in the Lions series, they still have a soft underbelly and with Cooper at FH they have someone who can be got at. The Lions will have a formidable pack and very good backs that I don't think the aussies will be able to cope with.

I wish we would stop having these articles though, its making me desperate for the tour and its still over a year away!!

Um.. Earls was the starting 13 for us the entire 6 nations, excluding the first game when he was unavailable..

I think Davies and Tuilagi are the best 13's around right now however if O'Driscoll can regain his fitness and stay injury free hes still better than either imo.

Not a huge fan of Earls myself but he had a fairly good 6N and didn't do too much wrong at 13.

look dude- i would rather have a fully represented gb and ni football team for the oylimpics, just like i want a fully represented lions team. its not all about the winning- its about the competing in these things!! its about the fans more than anything else!

belovedfrosties wrote:I'm a bit confused as to the Keith Earls love in going on here, when has he played well at 13 for Ireland? More often than not he looks exactly what he is, a back 3 player playing at 13. How people can rate him over Tuilagi is beyond me.

Also for the person who was saying if we just wanted a bosher use Roberts as he is better and scores tries then implied that Tuilagi doesn't. Have you see his stats? Its something like 4/5 tries from 10ish caps, which is a very good strike rate for a centre. If you want a bosher wouldn't you also go for the more powerful, faster version of the 2? ie. tuilagi?

Ok having got all that off my chest the Lions centres will be interesting. BOD is making everyones list on reputation, I honestly think he will be left behind by Gats (I am pleased with his selection of manager, I don't think there will be much bias he seems very tough but fair).

Pity he said that of all teams his team dislike the Irish team the most plus he left Ireland on bad terms with the IRFU. Motive enough to be biased against Irish players?