Stephen Sykes leaving Leinster

First topic message reminder :

Saw a rumour on the Leinster fan site that Sykes has signed with the Sharks back in South Africa.

Pretty disappointing if true, he did arrive with some fairly high expectations and for one reason or another he hasn’t been able to stay fit and has only played in 4 games for us (just under 200 mins).

I would be in favour of looking to sign a marquee foreign player in his position if that is the case, someone like Bekker or Whitelock would be a good call but not sure how likely either of them are to come here.

Maybe we could look at the likes of Caldwell who’s been playing well for Bath, but I’m not sure the good form he’s showing is sustainable. He never played enough for long enough at Ulster.

Feckless Rogue wrote:They're not good enough for Leinster. We'd take O'Connell. I'm sure he wants to win more Hieneken Cups. It's win win.

No worse than Toner or Cullen Hines is really missed though!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:This season Ronan has definitely been a front-line player. As would Felix Jones if he had not been injured this year. As he was last year.

Both have been great for very short periods, but Ronan will be behind both Wally and POM when he comes back from injury. I think Jones might have a job on his hands trying to take the 15 jersey from Denis Hurley.

I doubt it, since he could be challenging Kearney for the Ireland 15 shirt nevermind Hurley for the Munster 15 shirt. Ronan I feel has been one of the most important players in your pack this season, and POM doesn't do as good a job as him at 7. I would like to see POM, Ronan and Wallace in the same back-row.

Bathite wrote:And Bowe!

Watch this space.

Sin, stop trolling. Reddan and Cronin are rotation players at Leinster.
Keep it up and the thread will go off course.

What's Nathan Sharpe up to these days?

Dunno, but you should swap Ruddock for Nagle. That deal makes sense for everyone.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I doubt it, since he could be challenging Kearney for the Ireland 15 shirt nevermind Hurley for the Munster 15 shirt. Ronan I feel has been one of the most important players in your pack this season, and POM doesn't do as good a job as him at 7. I would like to see POM, Ronan and Wallace in the same back-row.

The point I'm making is that all that Felix has delivered so far is potential (as he has been injured so much). Ronan has been terrific - but he is no Wally (10+ seasons first choice Munster).

Coughlan has been outstanding at 8 for the last 2 seasons. Can't see him being dropped to move Wally there.

Notch wrote:Dunno, but you should swap Ruddock for Nagle. That deal makes sense for everyone.

Nagle is still only potential. For himself, I think he is better off in Munster and training with one of the best locks around (POC) for another year or two. Having to fight for a starting spot will be the making of him. Look at Donncha Ryan now!

Not so sure about Ruddock - think he might be a bit of a mercenary.

Have to agree with Sin - any Munster backrow will have Coughlan in it

Mickado wrote:Sin, stop trolling. Reddan and Cronin are rotation players at Leinster.
Keep it up and the thread will go off course.

What's Nathan Sharpe up to these days?

Whatever trolling that is on this thread, you started.

My main point is that with Leo & Jennings retiring, a bit of proven Irish quality & experience would be a good thing for Leinster rather than a young player like Nagle who is still 'potential'.

I wasn’t trolling, I said it would be interesting if DOC joined us because he’s just about the most Munsterish player alive, hence my comments about Hickie (a proud Leinster man) coming out of retirement to join Munster.

Anyway, who said anything about Jennings retiring. He’s contracted until May 2014 and he’s only 31.

Mickado wrote:I wasn’t trolling, I said it would be interesting if DOC joined us because he’s just about the most Munsterish player alive, hence my comments about Hickie (a proud Leinster man) coming out of retirement to join Munster.

Anyway, who said anything about Jennings retiring. He’s contracted until May 2014 and he’s only 31.

Fair enough. I misunderstood what you meant about Hickie & DOC.

Should have said with Leo coming up to retirement and it being doubtful if Jennings would be first choice in the backrow, there is a fair bit of experience & leadership being lost.

DOC gets on with everyone - he would be fine in Leinster. In fact, the Munster v Leinster games would be a 'riot' on the pitch.

All you have to do is look at how Stringer could step in at Sarries - you just can beat experience.

Sexton and Heaslip were named as vice captains in the Ireland squad, Kearney is known as a talker in the changing room and on the pitch, O’Brien and Ruddock have both captained Leinster too. I don’t think there would be as big a leadership vacuum as you think.

But to your specific point about O’Callaghan, at this stage of his career I don’t see him wanting to move to Munster’s biggest rivals. No more than Darcy or Horgan would want to move to Munster, it just doesn’t feel right. Dies have been cast at this stage. Stringer to Sarries is a moot point, you don’t play them at least twice a year.

Why would Leo retire Sin? Hes in fine form....a young 34!

roddersm wrote:Why would Leo retire Sin? Hes in fine form....a young 34!

Injuries catching up with him for one thing.

Sin, I meant for POM to be the 8, not Wallace. I would like to see that combination, but Coughlan definitely deserves to start based on form. He is probably the form 8 in Ireland, but I feel he would be the same as Jennings in an international game. Not the same impact.

Mickado wrote:Sexton and Heaslip were named as vice captains in the Ireland squad, Kearney is known as a talker in the changing room and on the pitch, O’Brien and Ruddock have both captained Leinster too. I don’t think there would be as big a leadership vacuum as you think.

But to your specific point about O’Callaghan, at this stage of his career I don’t see him wanting to move to Munster’s biggest rivals. No more than Darcy or Horgan would want to move to Munster, it just doesn’t feel right. Dies have been cast at this stage. Stringer to Sarries is a moot point, you don’t play them at least twice a year.

I was talking about the leadership in the forwards. I think Kearney would make an excellent captain but is too far from the action. Sexton has enough to do. Ruddock may leave. And I don't think either Heislip or SOB are captain material. Everyone is hoping they are, but they are not. How come neither of them are named Vice Captains at Leinster?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, I meant for POM to be the 8, not Wallace. I would like to see that combination, but Coughlan definitely deserves to start based on form. He is probably the form 8 in Ireland, but I feel he would be the same as Jennings in an international game. Not the same impact.

The sooner POM gets stuck into being a no 7, the better for Munster and Ireland. We're ok for No. 8s.

I wouldn't be shouting for Coughlan to get a call-up, but he is Munster best no. 8. He was tried at 6 at one stage (with Leamy at 8) but it didn't work out.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Sexton and Heaslip were named as vice captains in the Ireland squad, Kearney is known as a talker in the changing room and on the pitch, O’Brien and Ruddock have both captained Leinster too. I don’t think there would be as big a leadership vacuum as you think.

But to your specific point about O’Callaghan, at this stage of his career I don’t see him wanting to move to Munster’s biggest rivals. No more than Darcy or Horgan would want to move to Munster, it just doesn’t feel right. Dies have been cast at this stage. Stringer to Sarries is a moot point, you don’t play them at least twice a year.

I was talking about the leadership in the forwards. I think Kearney would make an excellent captain but is too far from the action. Sexton has enough to do. Ruddock may leave. And I don't think either Heislip or SOB are captain material. Everyone is hoping they are, but they are not. How come neither of them are named Vice Captains at Leinster?

I'm not sure there is an official vice captian at Leinster, but Heaslip has been captain a good few times. And has a 100% record in that role.

Jennings is the official vice captain. There used to be two. (Whittaker used be one along with Jennings when he was playing - not sure if he was replaced).

ROG captained Munster for half the season Munster won its 2nd Cup (POC out injured - and why you see POC & ROG lifting the cup together). He was successful, but I still don't think he is captain material.

I’ll take your word on it, I don’t remember any fanfare or official announcement about the captain. I just know Leo is by default captain and Heaslip has captained the side this year. Heaslip to me comes across as a better captain than Jennings, because I think he has a better rapport with the ref’s.

Leadership can come from anyone on the pitch, be they quiet or not, but a captain has to be talk to the ref, Jennings is a bit more of a whinge, like ROG, which is why they are good leaders, but not good captains.

Sin é wrote:
The sooner POM gets stuck into being a no 7, the better for Munster and Ireland. We're ok for No. 8s.

POM is a 6...easily the 2nd best 6 in Ireland for me behind Ferris....boooo!.. Big call! ....

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The sooner POM gets stuck into being a no 7, the better for Munster and Ireland. We're ok for No. 8s.

POM is a 6...easily the 2nd best 6 in Ireland for me behind Ferris....boooo!.. Big call! ....

I'd have O'Brien as the 2nd best No. 6 in Ireland.
(and he is also the 2nd best No. 7 - behind Wally).

The start of last season, it was tangible when Cullen & Heaslip were not playing that the pack lost a bit of focus. This season Cullen comes in and out of the side and it is no longer noticeable, in fact he seems to be on the verge of, dare I say it, struggling to keep up with play in close quarters. He has come off his plateau and the return journey.

I'd like to see referees having to talk up to Toner I must say, even just for comedy value. He doesn't get pinged a lot so chance are he isn't trying to explain how he didn't concede the penalty back to the referee.

Sometimes I separate out leader from captain. One has to rally the troops, keep his team focused and keep an eye on how everyone is doing and if a quite word/nudge/smack is needed. The other has to be able to deal with the media pre & post game and manage the referee. You could argue that BOD captains Ireland and POC leads Ireland but they can interchange.

On the leaders front I reckon;
- the front row don't have leaders
- the second row has Cullen, otherwise light
- the back row has Jennings, SOB, Heaslip
- Boss and Sexton are leaders in my mind, Reddan isn't
- centres, we have BOD, don't reckon any others lead
- back3 Rob and Isa are leaders (shaggy was also in the latter stages)
So Leinster could have leaders in up to half the jerseys that take the field.

But captains;
- not in our front row, not Ross, not Strauss/Cronin, not Healy (the times you need to have a chat with a referee, Healy is usually kneeling in front of a physio)
- Cullen is our captain but is on the wrong side of a lot of referees now and is known to be yellow card prone (a tag I don't think he will get away from)
- Jennings will be giving away the penalties so he isn't great as captain (already on the back foot). Heaslip's style/persona is too relaxed maybe. SOB is trying to catch his breathe in the breakages.... the time the captain needs to be whispering in the ref's ear.
- Boss would be a good captain but isn't a consistent starter
- Sexton might be captain material but isn't just yet, still comes across as a little moany when things don't go his way.
- McF could be captain material, has the look of someone who could manage a referee in a conversation
- Isa is a leader but not a captain, let him do what he does best
- Rob could come across well as captain, a Geordan Murphy style with the refs.

Yeah, I don't see where the next captain really is going to come from.

POM in no way plays like a 7. The sooner people realise that SOB is the one who is suiting the 7 role, the better. POM is a penalty machine at the breakdown, but he is a monster in the contact area. Such a good ball carrier and a huge tackler. Still think his best match has been at 8 where he was a man possessed, but he also looks great at 6. Good at filling in at 7 when needed.

Rory he's gonna be playing a LOT at 7 this season anyway. Wallace is injured, Ronan is injured, O'Donnell is injured.

I don't doubt he will be at 7 a lot this season - does that mean that is his best position? No. Why? You only need to watch him play to see why. I have explained many times, but I think anyone who thinks he is a 7 is kidding themselves. You want a 7? Look at SOB, who is really starting to grow into the role. He is great at the breakdown, as is his support play.

POM gave away 2 pens last weekend, yet he was a nightmare for saints as he contested at the breakdown and slowed down saints ball all night. He was very effective and if you watch the match he seemed to be at every breakdown. Its his preferred position and is a lot like McCaw in how he plays. Brilliant stuff

Also has been pointed out on other threads by leinster supporters mainly since SOB moved to 7 he is less effective and their backrow is better balanced with Jennings at 7

POM plays at 7 and we score 51 points and really stifle Northamptons attack*. Sounds like success to me.

*Yes they scored over 30 points however. 2 were penalty tries relating to scrum and most of the rest came from the boot.

Then I would say you haven't watched SOB often at all, and are just going by what a few Leinster fans are saying. Others have said SOB has been great at 7. The thing is, they would have to leave out Jennings. Who is better than any of their options at 6.

I would also say you haven't seen POM much if you think he is in anyway like McCaw.. all backrowers must slow down ball and contest the breakdown (or should I say all players actually?). Sure BOD is brilliant at that. Yet he is a 13 obviously.

And I think I know where you get the McCaw reference.. that one article some guy wrote where he compares him to McCaw. Don't get the comparison one bit.

red_stag wrote:POM plays at 7 and we score 51 points and really stifle Northamptons attack*. Sounds like success to me.

*Yes they scored over 30 points however. 2 were penalty tries relating to scrum and most of the rest came from the boot.

POM caused one of those penalty tries. I haven't seen the second half however. I doubt having a non 7 means your team won't be successful Stag.. South Africa did win a World Cup without one (where their pack was absolutely immense). Yet you want to play your most balanced pack, and currently SOB looks like the best option at 7, while POM looks best at 6 or 8. Like I said, you are kidding yourself if you think he is a 7. Using your team as a whole doing well doesn't exactly prove much.

Rory,

Are you seriously suggesting that the Munster fans haven't seen Peter O'Mahony play much?

I mean really. I remember when you came out with this POM is an 8 thing it was off the back of ONE game.

I would say it is you who haven't seen much of him. He has played our last two HEC matches at 7, he has played all his youth rugby there and will play the rest of the season there.

well, some people haven't been watching pom much or Sob for that matter. In fact I believe some people didn't see the game last weekend and would therefore not be qualified to comment. Also some of us have been watching pom since he played senior schools , through to club and academy and into Munster senior team.

I will not pigeonhole him as only a 7 as he is an effective player in any position including wing. But as was shown last weekend, Coughlan and Ryan did most of the carrying, pom was extremeeffective at the breakdowns and linking with the backs. Plus he ran over Ryan lamb on a couple of occasions for good measure

DOD, best line that sums it all up "I will not pigeonhole him". He can play in several positions much like Sean O'Brien or Sam Warburton.

red_stag wrote:Rory,

Are you seriously suggesting that the Munster fans haven't seen Peter O'Mahony play much?

I mean really. I remember when you came out with this POM is an 8 thing it was off the back of ONE game.

I would say it is you who haven't seen much of him. He has played our last two HEC matches at 7, he has played all his youth rugby there and will play the rest of the season there.

I was mostly questioning the ridiculous statement that he is anything like McCaw. No disrespect but he doesn't play remotely like him.

I said he looks a 6 or 8 based on his season while the internationals were playing in the RWC. Oh and his U20 games where he captained at 8. Did you see those games Stag? Did you see his younger games at 7, which I haven't seen/heard about. His professional career is what I am talking about. So did you see these games at 7? Maybe, I have seen him more than you have? Just because I am an Ulsterman does not mean I do not have interest in the other provinces.

You seem to be the one going by one off games, not me. I am referring to what I see of POM. And I see he is clearly not a 7, nor does he play like one. He is a fantastic 6 or 8. If you want to continue arguing why he is a 7, continue, but it won't change the fact he doesn't play like one. I think this boils down to the fact the Irish lack a lot of good 7s, and people want him to succeed there. But you are missing the player who actually is developing there (SOB).

red_stag wrote:DOD, best line that sums it all up "I will not pigeonhole him". He can play in several positions much like Sean O'Brien or Sam Warburton.

Nor have I. But I have pointed out his best position isn't at 7. I think he is best at 6 OR 8. Two positions he suits best. Have I pigeon-holed him into either? Nope, but I have acknowledged those are his best positions.

RS he is just one of these very good footballers that come along once in a while. A bit like Wally. I am happy to see him play anywhere once he is on the field. Whatever job he is given he does it. Last weekend though he was very good, and slowed saints ball down all evening. Got caught twice at the start but I don't think he gave away a penalty after that...shows that he is smart too despite being a bit hotheaded

Rory, I had assumed you were still doing the POM is an 8 only.

That was your stance last time this came up and I am pleased to see you acknowledge he could make a good 6. I suspect in a few months time you'll be saying he is a good 7 too.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:DOD, best line that sums it all up "I will not pigeonhole him". He can play in several positions much like Sean O'Brien or Sam Warburton.

Nor have I. But I have pointed out his best position isn't at 7. I think he is best at 6 OR 8. Two positions he suits best. Have I pigeon-holed him into either? Nope, but I have acknowledged those are his best positions.

Seems you have made an executive decision on it. That's fine but as with the other argument concerning Earls his best position is the position he currently plays in which isn't a 6or 8.

Regardless of his position, he will be the next Munster captain ( next year) and Ireland captain (2 years ).

red_stag wrote:Rory, I had assumed you were still doing the POM is an 8 only.

That was your stance last time this came up and I am pleased to see you acknowledge he could make a good 6. I suspect in a few months time you'll be saying he is a good 7 too.

Nope, you assumed I said he was only an 8 last time as well when I wasn't saying that. I said it looked his best position. Now however I think he is just as good a 6 as 8. However I really really don't see how he is a 7. And I think he is still a good player no matter what shirt he wears, I don't think he is a bad 7. He just doesn't play like the likes of McCaw etc. If he does end up that sort of player (and there is no reason he couldn't, SOB is doing just that) then I will retract every comment I have said. And apologise to DOD for saying his comparison to McCaw was ridiculous. You can call me out on that if that time comes! Save this paragraph

DOD, I hope he becomes captain someday, but next year? What about POC man?

Cant argue Rory

Ireland just seem to be pumping out these sort of all purpose backrowers. I wonder could we use it to our advantage by allowing them to change positions off the cuff during games? Might confuse the opposition a bit? Correct me if I'm talking nonsense. I'm not the most knowledgable in the details of backrow play.

I know if a soccer team has a player that can play well in several positions, he's given license to drift around between them all and the team adapts and fills in where he's missing. More difficult to defend against.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:DOD, I hope he becomes captain someday, but next year? What about POC man?

Time to move on to the next generation.

As for McCaw...if you saw how POM slowed the ball down ladt weekend, plus his tackle rate, linking and carrying then you would understand. And for those who have watched him for a number of years you would understand the comparison and that openside is his better position and where he is most influential.

Well, the likes of NZ in the world cup did something like that. McCaw in attack was at 8, while in defence at 7. He wore the 7 shirt while Thomson wore 8. Other teams have done something similar also.

Have to disagree DOD. Don't see it myself. I do not question his ability at the breakdown, but it isn't his greatest asset, or any better than even Ferris or SOB. He is a nuisance all over the pitch. With ball in hand, knocking players over for fun, or making big tackles or whatever.

David Wallace played 6,7 & 8 and despite not being a "natural" seven, it has proved to be his best Test position and where he was capped by the Lions. Why would he play there over Jennings who is supposedly more "naturally" suited to the role? Why indeed would O'Brien play 7 ahead of Jennings at Test level? The answer is simple - pace.

O'Mahoney has pace so there is no reason why he can't emulate Wallace and play openside. Like Wallace and O'Brien, and indeed McCaw/Pocock/Warburton he also has power which is moving into Test class territory. I hope he plays all three backrow positions as he will learn from each of them and then decide he wants to be a 7

Those suggesting Bob Casey - he is retiring at the end of the season.