Lewis Retirement: One fight early, or one fight late?

First topic message reminder :

Hey guys, just thought I would throw something out there that as a casual fan I have been thinking about for a while.

It is pretty much agreed that Lennox Lewis retired at the right time, whilst he was on top of the world, and didn't get carried away into continuing boxing for too long. My question is that did he do this one fight too early, or one fight too late?

Before his fight with Vitali, Lewis had beaten all the opponents he had faced. He had won his mega fights with Tyson, and gone 1 win, 1 draw with Holyfield, albeit neither of them being at their, and I loathe to use thw word, "prime". He had avenged his two losses, and beaten decent level, if not great opponents in Golota and Tua. The one obvious gap in his CV was Bowe, but that was not down to any of Lennox's doing after the infamous "bin dumping". So should Lewis have got out after Tyson? Would people be questioning him now for not fighting Vitali because of what Vitali has gone on to do, or would we remember that at the time Vitali was labelled as "Quitschko" after retiring on his stool against Chris Byrd and deemed by most people not of true great qualities like Lewis. However, as Lennox did go on to fight Vitali and win on cuts whilst being down on the cards, should he have gone on to re-match Klitschko, as that was the least Vitali deserved.

So, finally, my question is when would have been the best time for Lennox Lewis to retire for optimum legacy? Would he have the legacy he has now if he never faced Vitali, was he right to retire after the first fight, or should he have re-matched Vitali and would this have increased his legacy enough to warrant the risk he was taking?

How can you be so sure that with 6 rounds left he would have gone on to lose?

Because Vitali was young and fresh..Lewis was carrying a tyre and knocking on 40..........

Lucked out.......

So your guessing... move on

There are only two things you can say with any certainty about the fight The first is Lewis was behind on the judges scorecards, the second is Lewis won. They are the facts of the fight.

Lewis was coming back into it, Lewis was too old and would have run out of steam, Vitali would have gone on to win, Lewis would have gone on to win are all opinions and specualtion and as such pale into insignificance behind the two facts of the fight.

It's called an opinion..like when I say Mayweather will beat Manny...

My opinion is that Lewis would have lost...

As these sites are for opinions I don't think I'll move on dumby..

How can you say Vitali would have won Truss? He was winning; but he couldn't see for christ's sake.

Vitali fought superbly, but another round or two and his condition would only have worsened.

And you start with the immature insults again, bravo

In my opinion its a bit foolish to take your opinion, twist it, shake it a bit and then proclaim that someone basically lost but with my english education I may know better

I'll tell you what let's just agree to disagree....Don't want to play word games with you......

Just leave it..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's called an opinion..like when I say Mayweather will beat Manny...

My opinion is that Lewis would have lost...

As these sites are for opinions I don't think I'll move on dumby..

To be honest, Truss, I think it's more a question of semantics.

Many would agree with you that Lewis would have lost if it hadn't been for the cut, just as many believe that he would have turned it around.

Either way, that's a whole different kettle of fish to his ' having basically lost, ' wouldn't you say ?

As these sites are for opinions I don't think I'll move on dumby..
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iIf you insist on staying, it's probably best not to compound your stupidity with statements like "he basically lost" then given that this has been roundly rejected using the twin forces of hard, cold facts and commonsense!

I don't want to get into semantics Wondy....This kid is just trying to wind me up..... lost the war even though he lucked out in the battle is kind of what I was referring to..

Vitali was the real victor as a) he got onto the map.. b) Lewis knew the score...

But I am entitled to my opinion......

Why don't you go away...You've got nothing to say but negative stuff...

You only live once cheer up....

Like I said it's how you define basically.....In America the way basic is defined suits my opinion on Lewis..

Add to the debate or annoy someone else.

Vitali was the real victor wasn't he, would love to be remembered personally for losing the only meaningful fight of my career

He was the victor..Managed to gain acclaim and reputation out of a big fight on HBO..The fact lewis wasn't interested also helped his future legacy..

You don't really understand the term "exposure " do you??

Maybe when you are older..Ray Mancini's career prospered after losing a great fight with Arguello......As did tommy Farr's no doubt!!

My wisdom is lost on you kid..

His face was cut to shiiite. He would have been easy to hit in the rounds after that and Lewis would have won. But again, just an opinion.

Let's not let this sight get silly like the old one, lads.

In America the way basic is defined suits my opinion on Lewis..
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In America, Lewis still won the fight. Your argument, like your attitude, is poor and stinks to high heaven.

Let's hope Solis take Vitali deep into the trenches this weekend but sustains a fight ending cut, then we can listen to TRUSS telling us how Vitali basically lost the fight depsite having his hand raised and his name read out as the winner!

Funny how you talk about everyone's negativity and yet seem to be the only person on the board who thinks a win is actually a loss!

He was stopped because of the cut....

Your point isn't valid ...............

Well done Vitali you lost but your better known now and after all you basically won

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was stopped because of the cut....

Your point isn't valid ...............

The cut ended the fight and Lewis was awarded the win...

The cut was caused by a punch. It wasn't like Lewis nutted him or anything!

Witherspoon, Mancini, Farr all made there reputations from losing fights..To Holmes, Arguello and Louis...Of Course you can be a winner by losing....

To understand you have to have a modicum of intelligence..

As for the cut..The whole point of my argument is that Vitali was winning the fight and it was stopped on a cut..

His point isn't valid because if the cut wasn't as bad and the fight had carried on it wouldn't have bothered Vitali would it..

Invalid point..

It's redundant explaining it to you.

I think it is you whom is missing the point here Truss

The significance of Lewis not opting for a rematch should not be lost.

If he genuinely believed that he had the comfortable beating of Vitali then given there was great interest in a rematch and many people were questioning who would win a remach as well as the decisiveness of the first match then I think Lewis would have signed up.

I just dont think he was interested in a tough fight at that point and knew victory in a rematch was not the certainty he insinuated.

The essence of the original qestion was did he retire one fight too early or too late. The consequences of his match with Vitali is highly significant. Had he not fought Vitali then there would be no real overlap betwen the two. How would Vitali be viewed? As TRUSSMAN66 says, its probably the case that even more than his victories, Vitali gained legitimacy in that fight as a guy that could mix it with a top name and give him hell as well as being able to withstand heavy shots. This was at a time when Vitali was not viewed overly favourably due to his retirement in the Byrd fight. This changed dramatically after the Lewis fight.

Had they never fought how would Vitali be viewed now? He already polarises opinions to an extent but if he hadnt faced Lewis he would essentially be an unbeaten fighter who dominated an era. With his stats and physical prescence I imagine Vitali would polarise opinion even more. The "modernists" would no doubt view him as the new evolved breed of dominance. A man that would do to Louis and Ali what Drago did to Creed. The flip side would probably see many dismiss him as the best of a terrible era not fit to share the ring with the heavyweights of previous eras.

As it happened, the Lewis fight probably gave a fair reflection of him and his strenghts and weaknesses. The outcome of a rematch would have a significant bearing on how he was viewed. Had Lewis won decisively then Vitali reputation would fall some way and the first fight would be seen exactly as Lewis had said - that Lewis only struggled because he was underprepared. Vitali would probably be consigned to the dustbin of history. Had Vitali won then the first fight would be viewed as Lewis getting rather fortunate.

Thus if Lewis won a rematch convincingly, it would in some ways devalue the first win as Vitali would no longer have been seen as a good champion regardless of what he went on to acheive. He would just be seen as the best in a poor era that was handsomely beaten by the previous eras champion and Lewis' legacy would not really increase.

The fight couldn't have carried on though could it? It was probably one of the five worst I have ever seen.

Problem is, if they rematch and Vitali wins, the same argument TRUSS is hammering to death (namely that Lewis was pushing 40) would be dragged up to defend his loss.

Would a Vitali at his best have beaten Lewis at his best? Arguably, Lewis did everything that bit better than Vitali


As for the cut..The whole point of my argument is that Vitali was winning the fight and it was stopped on a cut..
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...that Lewis inflicted fairly and made worse through an accumulation of fair punches so it's irrelevant. Just because your argument is massively flawed doesn't give you cause to make cheap unemployment jokes at my expense. Those are the actions of a classless muppet dear boy and one would hope the moderators would advise you accordingly.

Then again, why should we expect anything better from you?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's REDUNDANT explaining it to you.

C'mon Truss, that's a cheap shot. You're better than that.

Difficult times for a lot of good people, and a lively joust over a boxing match should be a relief from the everyday grind, not a reminder of it. And no, I'm not wearing a ' moderator ' hat when I say that.

HumanWindmill wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's REDUNDANT explaining it to you.

C'mon Truss, that's a cheap shot. You're better than that.

Difficult times for a lot of good people, and a lively joust over a boxing match should be a relief from the everyday grind, not a reminder of it. And no, I'm not wearing a ' moderator ' hat when I say that.

Got to agree for a guy so proud of his class, that was a pretty classless remark, can only hope if the horrible prospect of redundancy or career uncertainty visits you find it so amusing.

Chill out lads; it's not worth losing your rag over a difference of opinion on a boxing site.

I was just using the word redundant.....Don't try to say I was doing something I wasn't. Wouldn't wish anybody to be out of work...

Sick of people second guessing me..

Redundant was the first word that came into head...

It's not as if Vitali had won every round before it was stopped. He was winning, but had by no means won. And Lewis had caught him with a few monsterous shots. There are far too many precedents in boxing that have seen unexpected turnarounds, etc to ever be able to claim that Vitali was 'going to win'. The facts are that the fight was up for grabs points-wise, that both men were very tired, and most importantly that Vitali got caught with a number of clean shots that gave him one of the worst cuts I have ever seen.

It was a less than stellar performance from an old and no-longer-hungry Lewis, but he still did enough to damage a peak Vitali to the point where it got stopped.

I think Lewis never took the rematch because he recognised that he wasn't hungry enough any more. That's fair in my book. Most boxers don't get to find that out about themselves until they get KO'd.

For me it was a career enhancing victory. Like it or not he beat the guy who went on to be, in my opinion, the best hw for the last decade (better than Wladimir). It would have been more career enhancing if he'd took the rematch and won, but who can blame an aging boxer who'd achieved as much as Lewis for calling it a day?

I think it's fairly evident from Trussman's backtracking and word-twisting that he's wee touch embarassed with his flippant 'Lewis basically lost' comment. Should probably just have held his hands up to this rather than trying to back his way out.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I was just using the word redundant.....Don't try to say I was doing something I wasn't. Wouldn't wish anybody to be out of work...

Sick of people second guessing me..

Redundant was the first word that came into head...

Of course it was jackass, that's why it was in capitals and after I'd mentioned recently I'm facing redundancy. Low rent trash....the fact you'd even try and defend yourself suggests you're even more pathetic than we could ever have imagined...and all because you get your ass handed to you on an internet forum.

You're a pathetic specimen son and you put the "dunce" in "redundancy". Dearly wish the Mods would see fit to ban you, I really do!

I emphasised the word in CAPS because obviously it was the meat and drink of the sentence..

If you think It was pertaining to your situation then..

1. You have a persecution complex anyway so I'm not surprised.

2. You're completely off base..

Less of the cheap 1st grade insults.......It's UNBECOMING

Loser who's not even adult enough to admit he's been rumbled. I think it's time you were hauled off the boards because in the short space of time you've been on here, the quality has plummeted and the atmosphere ruined.

You're at otal waste of space and of no benefit to this new forum.

Yup definitely think the MODS should take a close look at you TRUSS, of course, not as close as the look you should take at yourself.

Guys play the game...I've had more Racist insults and stereotyping than anybody on here without complaining....

I make a statement with a word in I used often on 606 (please feel free to check) that's taken the wrong way.....and the toys are chucked out.....

Less sensitivity.....and more objectivity.

Pathetic loser and liar.............

Original aren't we!!!

Go away and write something about Boxing.......for a change..

too sensitive kid......Doesn't get you anywhere.

as you probably know.

Tell you what I'll do i'll retract "REDUNDANT" and replace it with "It would be a waste of time"............

Alright..

I don't want to offend anybody....and apologies to anyone who was offended.

I agree if it was meant a certain way it would be a cheap shot..

But houses on broadoak lane certainly aren't cheap..

Gentlemen is this bickering really neccessary? Its in danger of spoiling a very interesting thread.

I suggest we let cooler heads prevail and leave the fighting to the boxers we discuss. They are paid to do it!

Colonel I didn't start any of this......

He's worse than my Wife

Colonel i agree with you and what these guys don't understand is you can win by the manner of your defeat...

Lewis did more for Vitali than any win over Herbie Hide did...

Gave him an audience and made him a solid Heavyweight prospect..

As did the Lewis no show rematch...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Colonel I didn't start any of this......

Hey, Truss.

You surely can see that your ' redundant ' quip could easily be misinterpreted, given Dave's uncertain circumstances ? Wouldn't it have been better to reassure Dave that you didn't intend any offence ? Normally you're pretty good at a verbal punch up and honourable enough to admit when it might have been - or been seen to have been - a bit over the top.

Let's call a truce before it escalates, eh ?

Truss, my apologies.

I see you've just clarified it all.

It wasn't meant WINDY but I can see why someone who is always on my case would take it that way...

You're a Man of integrity..these are hard times wouldn't wish as a Liberal who believes in full employment and a family man for someone to be out in the cold...

Like I say I've retracted Redundant and apologies to all...

Maybe if I hadn't of highlighted it none of this would have happened..

....and apologies to anyone who was offended.
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Not even man enough to make a personal apology....probably wouldn't be worth the computer screen it's badly spelt on anyway!


But houses on broadoak lane certainly aren't cheap...
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How would you know, your father-in-law buys 'em for you doesn't he? Now THAT'S a cheap shot...punk!

I haven't done anything wrong Mate..

No offence but from experience I know you see the worst in everybody and I imagine if somebody didn't say good morning to you in the right way you'd be in a mood all day thinking it was a slight.

Mate I packed my bags at the age of 19 and came to a foreign Country where I only knew my future Wife and her family.....I can't relate to you.

Maybe you've had it too easy...

Actually I wasn't quite 19 thinking about it!!

All those years..where have they gone.

Maybe if I hadn't of highlighted it none of this would have happened...
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Maybe if you possessed an ounce of class you wouldn't have written in the first place...as for being on your case, get a grip lad..and you talk about others having persecution complexes?!?!


I haven't done anything wrong Mate..
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And therein lies your problem son!


Mate I packed my bags at the age of 19 and came to a foreign Country where I only knew my future Wife and her family.....I can't relate to you.

Maybe you've had it too easy...
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Left home at 17 and fended for myself ever since, son. Didn't have the luxury of having my education and house paid for. Never had it easy but never griped about what I have or haven't got (be it a full head of hair or a top of the range BMW). As my old man said, if I haven't dropped dead within ten seconds of asking for it, I clearly don't need it that badly.

Fact is TRUSS, you're a weak man. You throw your supposed intellect and delusions of superiority around like it's of some value yet as has been demonstrated time and time and time again, you simply aren't that clever lad. You talk about what it is to be a man and yet have failed in any capacity to show any traits of it in yourself. Your attitude towards your own wife (let alone anyone else's) speak volumes about you.

For someone who supposedly has so much...your glass is most definitely half empty...and possibly filled with week old tramp's urine judging from your attitude!

But let's move on, eh??

Your life story is quite interesting ever thought of going to a publisher...

I haven't got a persecution complex because I take posts at face value and don't analyse them and try to read through the lines..

Any fairminded guy can scroll back to the beginning and see who started it...You like always...

As for WEAK....I can Benchpress 350 and Deadlift 400 x 6 reps..

Now that's not weak is it...

You don't know how I feel about my Wife........

Well, that was fun.

The real question though, is whether or not Mayweather's retirement will be one fight too soon or one fight too late if he doesn't fight Ma..........................

Better not.

A great many fighters don't even start trying in the first 3 rounds, they feel out the opponent and find their range. The boxing starts in the middle rounds. Being behined on points relatively early in the fight isn't a major deal. The stoppage was in round 6, there is often some ring rust early on. I seem to remember Hopkins going down against Pascal early, but not panicking or even changing his gameplan, before proceeding to dominate the remaining rounds.

Sometimes the champions find a way to win, a shocker for almost the entire fight but pull it out of the bag in the later rounds. Louis vs Conn, Lyle vs Foreman would be examples. Famously La Motta came from behined to stop Dauthille, with literally a few seconds to spare. In a sense its more of an achievement.

If a stoppage was called in round 11 that may be controversial. But, relatively early in the fight, the scorecards are not that significant.

Well they are if the cut is caused by a headbutt.................

Debatable statement chris..........