Ben Morgan tells Phill Kingsley Jones that he wants to play for England.

First topic message reminder :

The Scarlets number eight will qualify for Wales before the six nations. He is a born and bred Englishman despite playing his senior rugby in Wales.

Phill said he asked Morgan straight up what he wanted to do and he said he wants to play for England.

So, England fans you have a superb number eight waiting for the call, what do you think Lancaster will do?

Age Rory,

He is also english born and bred. So England would have always been his first choice.

It looks like he has emerged at just the right time for them too.

Rory,

Not think it anything to do with that he is English after all so wanting to play for country of birth not wrong is it.

maestegmafia wrote:Age Rory,

He is also english born and bred. So England would have always been his first choice.

It looks like he has emerged at just the right time for them too.

If England is his first choice and always has been, then that is fine, however I am saying that if his reasons for not playing for Wales is Faletau, that is poor. I had thought previously his choice was to play for Wales, however.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Rory,

Not think it anything to do with that he is English after all so wanting to play for country of birth not wrong is it.

Fair enough, I was under the impression he had been aspiring to play for Wales up until this point though.

Nah he never ruled out any and has always said would look at options. It might be taken out of his hands anyway if England not pick from outside England.

bathmad wrote:He won't be picked as long as he's playing in Wales. RFU said no exceptions, must be playing in the Jeff.

The rule was that foreign league based players wouldn't be picked except for in 'exceptional circumstances'. Now, what that means is anybody's guess, but there are few things to consider. From everything I've read, Easter is set to be jettisoned by Lancaster, his post World Cup comments not going down well. Certainly the rugby paper has him getting the boot. England have lost James Haskell (Who may end up moving back to his original and best position of blindside anyway). So in effect, England could be losing the two no.8's that went to the World Cup, having already lost one Saxons no 8 in Jordan Crane. I'd suggest that Lancaster could argue exceptional circumstances in this case.

Rory has a point

Crane has a knee injury doesn't he...?

Another reason for England to look at Morgan.

Very good player will do well for them. Deceptively quick and brutally strong, similar to Scott Quinnell. Not as agile as Faletau.

My only concern with Morgan is his pace compared to Faletau our style of play requires a fast mobile 8 who is able to link with our backs.
Also I don't think Morgan is having such a impact these days or I have not noticed him doing much anyway.

What are Morgan's contract obligations? How long is he signed up to Scarlets?

I reckon that Saints,Gloucester,Exeter and London Irish should look at signing him up.

Saints as frontrunners.

If he does choose England and gets picked to play against Wales in the six nations would he make it out alive?

beshocked wrote:What are Morgan's contract obligations? How long is he signed up to Scarlets?

I reckon that Saints,Gloucester,Exeter and London Irish should look at signing him up.

Saints as frontrunners.

Still has over two years left on the contract.

He just resigned to the Scarlets last year.

Pretty average 8 from what I've saw of him. He'd be behind Easter, Guest, Waldroum, Narraway in England pecking order

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Age Rory,

He is also english born and bred. So England would have always been his first choice.

It looks like he has emerged at just the right time for them too.

If England is his first choice and always has been, then that is fine, however I am saying that if his reasons for not playing for Wales is Faletau, that is poor. I had thought previously his choice was to play for Wales, however.

It would be a poor reason which is why I suspect it simply isnt true. Its only a theory that Maesteg has invented based on some spurious assumptions about a large number of England based players spontaeneously combusting sometime in the next week.

Id assume that Lancaster would want to pick players who are available for all the training time and rest weekends. Especially if they havent been through the age grade/saxons set up and wont even have met most of the EPS yet alone tarined/played with them before.

Its interesting how many peopel this time last year who were hailing him as the inventor of sliced bread are suddenly keen to deride him as a player ( yest still make him better than anyone in England) when theres a chance he might not play for Wales after all.

Even if Lancaster ditches Waldrom and Easter ( which would be suprising) its far from garunteed that he'd get ion the EPS let lone a match day squad even if they did consider waiveing the English clubs rule and selecting a player who didnt have garunteed availability.

Honestly I suspect this has more to do with his agent trying to force Gatlands hand and generating sniffs from Jeff clubs than anything else.

Cymroglan wrote:

beshocked wrote:What are Morgan's contract obligations? How long is he signed up to Scarlets?

I reckon that Saints,Gloucester,Exeter and London Irish should look at signing him up.

Saints as frontrunners.

Still has over two years left on the contract.

Looks like Morgan has made his choice to me.

If he wants to play for England he should play for an English club. If he's as good as you Welsh seem to think he is an English club should have snapped him up by now.

Morgan needs to make a decisive decision. Wales is still his choice as far as I am concerned.

I thought that the outside of the AP didi not apply to players that already had contracts overseas before the ruling came in. Palmer being an example.

I am not sure how it would apply in Morgan's case if he resigned last year, it could rule him out.

One player that has not been mentioned as a possible stop gap 8 for England is Dowson. He is not going to set teh world alight, but he won't let you down either. He could fill the spot until "The Brand" gets back or someone elsemakes a claim on the spot.

Morgan created a impact last season but these days he seems very quiet I think he would struggle to get into the English or Welsh side at the present time.
He will get a international cap from the side he selects will he get more than one is anybodies guess.

Peter,

Out of curiosity, who were the 8 EQ players who started at 8?

Didnt think we had that many at the moment....

Assuming Easter, Narraway, Waldrom...

I actually dont think he should be capped by either nation right now, Wales, possibly, but thats subjective.

He's a good player, but hes young, and i think both countrys (england certainly) have better options for the national sides at the moment.

Also, he's a born and bred Gloucester lad, his dad's a gloucesterman, he moved down to Merthyr to complete his plumbing qualifications and play rugby at the scarlets at the sametime as he wasnt able to find the same opporunities for enhancement in rugby and life up in Gloucester(please correct me if im wrong on this). From what I know he considers himself an Englishman, but he has a lot of attachment to the scarlets for what they've done for him. He knows that being capped for England will not do him any favours with the scarlets (taking up a NWQ spot that he currently isnt).

Think there could be a lot of twists and turns in this story, and him playing for either country wouldnt surprise me, although to think he would choose whichever country gave him the "easiest route" is a bit sour, hoping theres more to it than that.

Is he not taking up a NWQ spot now for the Scarlets?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is he not taking up a NWQ spot now for the Scarlets?

With him not being capped by anybody I'm not sure if it counts as being NWQ.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Peter,

Out of curiosity, who were the 8 EQ players who started at 8?

Didnt think we had that many at the moment....

Assuming Easter, Narraway, Waldrom...

OK from the last round of Jeff fixtures :

Irish : Richard Thorpe (who?) with Garvey on the bench
Bath : No EQ speacilist 8 (boo)
Saracens : Jackson Wray
Gloucester : Luke Narraway
Tigers : Wadrom The Hutt
Sale : Non EQ starter but had Mark Easter on the bench
Wasps: Sam Jones with Matt Everard on the bench
Worcester : Non EQ starter but Jake Abbot on the bench
Exeter : James Phillips with Tom Johnson on the bench
Quins : Tom Guest with Chris York on the bench
Falcons: No EQ specialist 8 (Tigers would probably have signed them by now if they had a good one anyway)
Saints : Wilson with Dowson playing as a flanker

8 starters, and another 6 on the bench plus Dowson. Thats without Crane, Haskell or Easter all of who would be serious contenders if available, and many othr EQ players who on other weekends would be 8's for their club.
Of those who were playing of course most wont ever get near the England shirt, but theres loads of comeptition and hardly a shortage of EQ players getting regular game time in this or any other position. Most of them have recently played in either the Saxons or age group sides.

Is Morgan automaticaly garunteed a free pass to the England side any more than he is the Welsh one? Of course not.
Has the Welsh coach stated he wants him in his squad? Yes. Has the English one? No.

Cymroglan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is he not taking up a NWQ spot now for the Scarlets?

With him not being capped by anybody I'm not sure if it counts as being NWQ.

He currently isn't welsh either, so I'd guess he is. Lancaster seems to be very keen to get him involved for the Six Nations. If what is said above is true and rumours of Easter being overlooked and rumours (little more than rumours), that England will not be picking players who are non passport holding, short term foreign solutions anymore, (Waldrom, Hape, Flutey etc etc etc) you can understand the interest.

He seems a really good lad, is a great player and will do well for whoever he plays for. Unfortunately it looks like Wales wont benefit from it.

Isnt their a seperate catagory for players who could potentialy become WQ?
It would only be if he played for England that he'd cause problems for Scarlets. I suspect if that were the case that theyd do their level best to be obstructive regarding his release outside IRB windows ( like the PRL)

Peter,

Thats quite interesting to see...am i right in thinking York has impressed for Quins in the games he has played aswell...

And how did Guest play...

York (and Trayfoot behind him) played decently but is probably a couple of years of physical development short of international rugby.

Guest put in a decent 40 mins, but visibly tired in the second half. Not surprising given he's been out since September, but definitely needs time to get his match fitness back.

Pete,Maes,Cymro, i think hes currently classed as becoming welsh qualifed as he hasnt been capped but will be elligible for Wales within the next few months. If he's capped by England, he'll lose that and take up another "NWQ" spot at the region, perhaps thats why the scarlets have let go of S.Lamont at the end of the season? Maybe he's already told the Scarlets his plans? So many conspiracy theories!

Either choice will have strong reprecussions so I hope he makes his own decision and isnt too swayed by 'words of wisdom' from individuals attached to either set-up.

Comfort he has already told a BBc pundit PKJ that he wants to put his lot with England so I imagine the Scarlets are a step ahead.

Be sad to see Lamont go, nice guy who has given a lot to the region. But you can see why he would want to be back in Scotland.

For the Morgans sake I hope hes got a better agent than Haskell, the Brand muct be looking at the current situation and realiseing he had every chance of establishing himself as Englands long term first choice 8 had he taken a premiership deal rather than stayed in France and then taken a panic move to Japan when his club went belly up.

Pete though...dont you think if he had said he wanted to go to Egnland he would have got a place....

I think its Haskell who wants to sample the S15 / Japan etc...and you cant blame him for that.....if we had a few other decent 8's we wouldnt be missing him much....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pete though...dont you think if he had said he wanted to go to Egnland he would have got a place....

I think its Haskell who wants to sample the S15 / Japan etc...and you cant blame him for that.....if we had a few other decent 8's we wouldnt be missing him much....

With Haskell I think money did play a part sadly.
He had the offer to stay in England when he went to France. He had the offer to come back when the club vs country battles started. Im not sure how hard they really looked for a short term deal or wage cut to come back to England when Stade fell apart, instead he took the big money offer to play in a league that will do nothing for his reputation, cv or abilities.
Going right back to the whole Brand fiasco of his youth he seems to be the king of bad career decision making, challenged perhaps by clown prince cipriani.

MM, i agree with you on everything youve said!

but I'd stilll take a massive rock of salt with everything I hear from the welsh rugby media.

maestegmafia wrote:Comfort he has already told a BBc pundit PKJ that he wants to put his lot with England so I imagine the Scarlets are a step ahead.

Be sad to see Lamont go, nice guy who has given a lot to the region. But you can see why he would want to be back in Scotland.

Ive been to Scotland, I havent a clue why anyone would want to be there

Comfort wrote:MM, i agree with you on everything youve said!

but I'd stilll take a massive rock of salt with everything I hear from the welsh rugby media.

If it was the BBc Website or the WM I'd agree, but the TV show Scrum V is usually pretty accurate. I would certainly rather Morgan playing with us rather than against us, so I hope They're wrong.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Comfort he has already told a BBc pundit PKJ that he wants to put his lot with England so I imagine the Scarlets are a step ahead.

Be sad to see Lamont go, nice guy who has given a lot to the region. But you can see why he would want to be back in Scotland.

Ive been to Scotland, I havent a clue why anyone would want to be there

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think its Haskell who wants to sample the S15 / Japan etc...and you cant blame him for that.....if we had a few other decent 8's we wouldnt be missing him much....

I think it's a mistake and hope it backfires - he would most likely be first choice 8 for England this 6N if it wan't for him moving abroad which shows where his priorities lie. Generally think it is good for England players to play in other domestic leagues such as France but they should be available for International windows all year around (so S15 is no good). I hope that by the time Haskell comes back some others have made the squad places their own and he doesn't walk straight back into the EPS. Maybe take the shine off the brand for a while and make him really work hard to stand a chance of getting a recall.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Peter,

Out of curiosity, who were the 8 EQ players who started at 8?

Didnt think we had that many at the moment....

Assuming Easter, Narraway, Waldrom...

OK from the last round of Jeff fixtures :

Irish : Richard Thorpe (who?) with Garvey on the bench- Garvey is a second rower, do you mean Alex Gray?
Bath : No EQ speacilist 8 (boo) They have Fearns who is an 8 being played out of position.
Saracens : Jackson Wray
Gloucester : Luke Narraway
Tigers : Wadrom The Hutt
Sale : Non EQ starter but had Mark Easter on the bench
Wasps: Sam Jones with Matt Everard on the bench- Matt Everard is an out and out openside. Billy Vunipola could be a choice when fit.
Worcester : Non EQ starter but Jake Abbot on the bench- Matt Kvesic played lots at no.8 at youth level and has had a couple of senior starts there.
Exeter : James Phillips with Tom Johnson on the bench
Quins : Tom Guest with Chris York on the bench
Falcons: No EQ specialist 8- Richard Mayhew joined this season, qualifies through English father. 25 year old big and strong ball carrier.
Saints : Wilson with Dowson playing as a flanker

8 starters, and another 6 on the bench plus Dowson. Thats without Crane, Haskell or Easter all of who would be serious contenders if available, and many othr EQ players who on other weekends would be 8's for their club.
Of those who were playing of course most wont ever get near the England shirt, but theres loads of comeptition and hardly a shortage of EQ players getting regular game time in this or any other position. Most of them have recently played in either the Saxons or age group sides.

Is Morgan automaticaly garunteed a free pass to the England side any more than he is the Welsh one? Of course not.
Has the Welsh coach stated he wants him in his squad? Yes. Has the English one? No.

Lancaster tried to cap him for the Saxons in the summer. He has also already spoken to him about his position in the pecking order. With that in mind and Morgan's seeming lean towards England, I have jumped to the conclusion that Easter may be on the way out.

Personally I think Gatland would be mad not to cap him if he gets the chance, whilst we have some decent strength in depth at 6 and 7 we haven't got much at 8 after Faletau.

I am not overly keen on all this residency stuff but if its the rules as we stand then why not.

And before people come on here saying oh its now ok for Wales to do it after slating England etc etc , I have alsways said people in glass houses etc and to have a look at out past record of capping players.

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pete though...dont you think if he had said he wanted to go to Egnland he would have got a place....
He had the offer to stay in England when he went to France. He had the offer to come back when the club vs country battles started. Im not sure how hard they really looked for a short term deal or wage cut to come back to England when Stade fell apart, instead he took the big money offer to play in a league that will do nothing for his reputation, cv or abilities.

Peter - I was under the impression that Haskell was getting minimal wage for his appearances in NZ. He was on a late entry with the squad finalized, read somewhere that he was on the same salary as a newly promoted academy lad. The coach was happy to have him as it demonstrated that he was there for the rugby not the money!

bedford - I thought I heard that Delve was potentially coming back after his stint with Rebels.
That is a player that really slipped under Gatlands radar and should have been used more than Powell.

prop,

He has been linked with the Blues yes, for me he should have been our No8 for the last god knows how many seasons but coaches just don't seem to pick/rate him.

It has been mentioned a few times that Delve is difficult to work with bit too opinionated.

[quote="propdavid_london"]

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pete though...dont you think if he had said he wanted to go to Egnland he would have got a place....
He had the offer to stay in England when he went to France. He had the offer to come back when the club vs country battles started. Im not sure how hard they really looked for a short term deal or wage cut to come back to England when Stade fell apart, instead he took the big money offer to play in a league that will do nothing for his reputation, cv or abilities.

Peter - I was under the impression that Haskell was getting minimal wage for his appearances in NZ. He was on a late entry with the squad finalized, read somewhere that he was on the same salary as a newly promoted academy lad. The coach was happy to have him as it demonstrated that he was there for the rugby not the money!

He was offered a contract which was torn up due to the Hotel worker incident during the RWC. THat is why there was the thread where he is trying to sue her. I think he had spent a reported £80,000 on the matter. Trying to get what he is owed.

Cymroglan wrote:It has been mentioned a few times that Delve is difficult to work with bit too opinionated.

I hadn't heard that of Delve... Nothing a good coach can't sort out. He was very popular with the Rebels he was vice captain to Stirling Mortlock.

Cymroglan wrote:It has been mentioned a few times that Delve is difficult to work with bit too opinionated.

Cymro,

I have close friends who are massive shed heads and Delve as got a pretty lofty status within Kingsholm as he carried them a lot on his own and they were gutted to lose him.

Whilst they sa he's not opinionated he's certainly not a yes man and will have his say and say what he thinks if things aren't working out.

Perhaps he is a bit too opinionated in Gatland's eyes who seems to be quite an authoritarian coach.
Otherwise he seems like a great bloke and people who watch super rugby rate him very highly.

Might make a good coach himself one day.

Well Easter is a decent player, but not the destructive 8 England need. Candidates include Guest, Fearns, Phillips, Waldrom, Narraway or waiting for Joubert.

So, England do have options at 8, but Morgan would certainly have a chance of making the place his as Lancaster obviously rates him and Haskell is temporarily out of the picture. I don't think the English-based issue will matter in the short-term as he signed a contract before it came in and/or Lancaster can simply argue that these are exceptional circumstances as he wants to have him commit to England before Wales 'poach' him.

We won't have to wait long to find out - I think if Morgan is ever to play for England he'll have to be in either the EPS or the Saxons squad next week.

Who is Joubert? The Saracens player?