Ben Morgan tells Phill Kingsley Jones that he wants to play for England.

The Scarlets number eight will qualify for Wales before the six nations. He is a born and bred Englishman despite playing his senior rugby in Wales.

Phill said he asked Morgan straight up what he wanted to do and he said he wants to play for England.

So, England fans you have a superb number eight waiting for the call, what do you think Lancaster will do?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16379444.stm

I think he'd be better off playing for Wales. Due to several injuries we're lacking 8 options for this 6N, but ultimately I'd prefer to see Guest, Fearns & Gray given the opportunities. Of a similar type to Morgan I prefer Crane.

I don't think Lancaster will offer him a place, but even if he did I don't think Morgan would be sensible to accept if he's also considering playing for Wales. The permanent coach might not be so interested in him and he'd be stuck.

If he has even suggested recently that he wants to play for England then Wales should let him go.
It will be interesting if and when the time comes he is wanted for training by England if the Scarlets be as stubborn regarding player release.

Kingsley jones just said on scrum v that when he asked Morgan, he said he wanted to play for England.

Well yes being a Englishman he would have said that but did he say that he would elect to play for them though.
He probably wanted to play for England since he was a child starting to play rugby but has he said he will not play for Wales if asked ?

Cymroglan wrote:Well yes being a Englishman he would have said that but did he say that he would elect to play for them though.
He probably wanted to play for England since he was a child starting to play rugby but has he said he will not play for Wales if asked ?

They didn't say.

England would be foolish not take him, he is the best English number eight available.

Perhaps with the emergence of Faletau for Wales, and the lack of options at 8 for England, he has realised his best chance at international rugby would be for England.

Yes he is a good old fashioned 8 but I think Faletau is a better option for our style of play.

Cymroglan wrote:Yes he is a good old fashioned 8 but I think Faletau is a better option for our style of play.

Faletau is one of the best number eights in the world, we are very lucky to have him.

maestegmafia wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Yes he is a good old fashioned 8 but I think Faletau is a better option for our style of play.

Faletau is one of the best number eights in the world, we are very lucky to have him.

I think it is far too early to make a statement like that.. he had a very good world cup yes, but he still has a lot to prove. He isn't near the best yet, IMO. The likes of Read, Parisse, Harinordoquy, Picamoles, Heaslip, Fernandez Lobbe I would say are all a good bit ahead of him. Gorgodze too possibly if he is considered an 8 as opposed to flanker. Faletau has plenty of time to reach the heights of the players listed, however.

There are a lot of superlatives thrown in Morgan's direction, but I've yet to see him play against a real top quality backrow. He's yet to play against the best his league has to offer, he's never faced O'Brien, Heaslip or Ferris and when he's played against Munster they often seem to be missing their best combination. He's played against Warburton, but not Faletau or Lydiate.

He's looked pretty decent, but I'd like to see a sterner examination of him before placing him above other, to my mind, better options. In terms of what Morgan does, Crane is better, and I think Carl Fearns will develop into a better and more versatile option for England.

In any case, as long as he's at Scarlets I can't see him being selected. RFU policy is that it takes exceptional circumstances for a foreign-based player to be selected and he won't get the extra release dates England's training camps require.

Not sure what there is to justify the hype around Picamoles personally. Never seen anything great from him myself and just as soon as Harinordoquy replaced him in the World Cup France began looking more consistent.

Not fussed about Ben Morgan playing for Wales tbh, clear poach in fairness. Has on more than a few occasion played into opposition hands ie allowed himself to be contained too easily. Also gets turned too often for my liking.

I would say given performances in the world cup i see no reason why Faletau shouldn't be classed as one of the best number 8's in the world (i agree the best is a massive statement)
You can't have seen Picamoles play much if you can't see what the hypes about, he is a beast in contact and his core skills are also extremely good, however i'm not saying he is better than Harinordoquy but there is certainly enough about him to justify any hype he's getting.
On Ben Morgan I think Guest looked extremely good in his first game back from a broken arm and would prefer him to Morgan along with a fair few other English options that others have mentioned.

Picamoles is a class act, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't starting 8 for France in the WC.

To state Falateu is one of the best 8's in world rugby is ludicrous. He needs to perform on both the European and Int scene for a prolonged period before even been considered, not have 3/4 good games at a world cup.

Agreed hes not even close to being up there with the likes of Read, Parisse, Harinordoquy or even Palu...yet

Good news from England’s point of view. I've read that Lancaster has spoken to him and is very interested in having him in the squad. I think England would be stupid not to use him too TBH. Who are the alternatives? Nick Easter? Thomas Waldrom? I’d rather have Morgan than both of those.

For those mentioning the young(ish) lads:

Crane is out for the season.

Gray is at least 2-3 years away from even being considered for international rugby. He isn’t even nailing down a squad place for London Irish squad. He also needs to bulk up by at least a stone IMO.

Fearns is injured, I’d consider him but Morgan has the fact that he is starting no.8 for his club.

Guest needs to be included in the squad, he’s been knocking on the door far too long.

As I see it in the medium term (Next 3-4 years) Ben Morgan, Carl Fearns, Jordan Crane and Tom Guest are in the mix for the no.8 position. In that situation, I’d have Morgan as the top man. He’s regularly starting for his club and is the strong abrasive carrying type of no.8 that England tend to go for.

I know I’ve forgotten about Narraway, but I’m increasingly coming to the impression that he is going to have to have a spectacular season to get him back into the coaches minds. Don’t know what it is with him, but he constantly seems to be overlooked.

To make things worse for Narraway, I’ve read that Morgan is a lifelong Gloucester fan. If he has long term ambitions to play for England, Morgan will need to move to the AP. These things don’t always follow, but I could see him at Kingsholm at some point.

This thread is about Morgan deciding he wishes to play for England and not accept the residency qualification he is entitled to with Wales come the six nations, it is not about Faletau or Picamoles...!

As I watch very view Rabo matches - I did try to watch the Scarlets/Dragons game - I have to base my opinions on what I see in HC/amlin matches. Now I do not know whether Morgan ha splayed in any of the Scarlets HC matches over the last two years as he has made absolutely no impression on me. This suggests he has not (if he played) done much in the highest level he has been at.

So right now I would say nah there are other options with more talent available to England between now and RWC 2015.

I think if he wants to further his England credentials he should have accepted an English contract at a Premiership team.

LondonTiger wrote:As I watch very view Rabo matches - I did try to watch the Scarlets/Dragons game - I have to base my opinions on what I see in HC/amlin matches. Now I do not know whether Morgan ha splayed in any of the Scarlets HC matches over the last two years as he has made absolutely no impression on me. This suggests he has not (if he played) done much in the highest level he has been at.

So right now I would say nah there are other options with more talent available to England between now and RWC 2015.

I seem to recall him being pretty good in the Scarlets win over Northampton at Franklins Gardens. The point isn't about 2015, it's about the next Six Nations and the coming year. England are seriously weak at no.8 at the moment and I don't feel we should overlook him. Let's face it, he could become a contender for 2015 himself, there's no guarantees that Guys like Carl Fearns and Alex Gray et al will turn out to be better than him.

According to reports Lancaster is very keen to select him for the 6 nations. He seems to rate him since he also tried to get him involved with the Saxons last year.

If Ben Morgan wants to play for England that is all well and good imo. Seeing that he is English born any way, but will he be good enough for the 6ns? maybe he will maybe he wont, i would of thought that if Lancaster thinks he is good enough then he is good enough.

Englands options at 8 are very poor at the moment...and i would probably have started with Crane had he been fit.

As it stands it looks like it will be Easter again unless we play a flanker out of position at 8...

Havent seen much of Morgan at all but if he's a quality 8 and wants to play for England then im happy with that...

Nothings to say Fearns, Gray etc will actually reach the level we hope...lets play for this six nations rather than the next WC...

I saw an article on the daily mail saying the Lancaster probably isn't going to select Easter or Cueto.

ENGLAND caretaker coach Stuart Lancaster has launched another bid to persuade Scarlets No.8 Ben Morgan to commit his long-term international future away from Wales.


If I was Ben Morgan my concern would be is that Stuart is the caretaker coach but if somebody else is appointed as England long term coach would they be as keen in selecting Morgan due to the fact he is playing outside England and still has over two years left on his Scarlets contract.

Cueto i agree with but Easter should be in the squad.

With out him we would have to choose from Guest, Narraway or Morgan (potentially)...and combined with say Wood, Robshaw, Croft etc would be a good but inexperienced back row....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Cueto i agree with but Easter should be in the squad.

With out him we would have to choose from Guest, Narraway or Morgan (potentially)...and combined with say Wood, Robshaw, Croft etc would be a good but inexperienced back row....

Don't forget Waldrum (I keep trying to but I think he will be in the squad ). I keep changing my mind about Easter. He's on well on form and still best English 8 at the moment but I'm unhappy about the role he played in the world cup debacle. Obviously caused some discontent with his comments about the 35k and he should have been more professional regarding the drinking games and dwarf throwing that Tindall got hammered for. If Lancaster really does want to make a clean start then maybe he has decided to cut him but on the whole I think I would keep him for this years 6N.

Good Choice son, aim high.

gowales wrote:I saw an article on the daily mail saying the Lancaster probably isn't going to select Easter or Cueto.

The article was in the Daily Mail? Was that article next to the story about the woman gave birth to the three headed baby or the one about the Labour MP who has sex with chickens?

OK, sorry about that comment. I was commenting about the Daily Mail part, not about whether Cueto or Easter are in the England squad. Not for nothing, I still believe Waldrom should not be selected.

I saw the Scrum V programme and my reading of Kingsley's commenbts were not as cut and dried as some of the posters on this site. I thought Kingsley was suggesting that Ben is still in two minds. ie. He is English but plays and lives in Wales.

It would be shame for the Scarlets to lose him as he has been a real find, but I can't see him playing for England and playing in Wales. After what the English players association have been doing, preventing access to Welsh players. I suspect that the WRU would be looking to get their own back with Ben.

Seagultaf wrote:I suspect that the WRU would be looking to get their own back with Ben.

I would hope not.

The WRU, the RRW and the regions themselves have never created any issues with returning players like Tommy Bowe or Sean Lamont for their nations training camps.

lol i know the dailymail isn't the best of sources but to be honest neither are the other ones.

If you dislike the Daily Wail

Here are a few alternative opinions, basically all the same story:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8982177/England-and-Wales-battle-for-Scarlets-No-8-Ben-Morgan.html

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/30/stuart-lancaster-wants-ben-morgan-for-england-91466-30031832/

And an interview with Steve Morgan, Bens father

https://youtu.be/6oEut8nNY8c

Nice corner flag defending here too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=oaOIpAbjYSs

It would be a big call for him as he would have to change club and is at risk of not being favoured by the permanent manager. Still Scott Quinell rates him, so I'd be happy if he chose England.

Bloody Hell I just Edited my Pro rugby Manager 2011-2012 database to make him Welsh!

I think it has become apparent to Morgan that he is far more likely to get capped for England than Wales. Toby Faletau is likely to be a first choice number eight for a few years. England's number eight is rumoured to be stepping out of international rugby and Morgan is likely the best option they have.

maestegmafia wrote:I think it has become apparent to Morgan that he is far more likely to get capped for England than Wales. Toby Faletau is likely to be a first choice number eight for a few years. England's number eight is rumoured to be stepping out of international rugby and Morgan is likely the best option they have.

So in Wales theres one number 8 who would get picked ahead of him for the starting spot currently, but and he knows hes highly rated and wanted by the current manager for the squad.

In England he was wanted for the Saxons by Lancaster, but its unlikely he will be the permanent coach. Morgan knows he wont get selected in the senior squad untill hes playing club rugby in England ( quite possible from next season, but he is under contract in Wales) but with a number of contenders for squad spots, at least one of who will get a chance to prove their point this winter.

Hes pretty much garaunteed of a squad spot, which inevitably means a cap at some point in the near futire if he stays in Wales. If he secures a contarct with an English club in time for the summer tour he may be considered alongside several other for a tour spot if the then coach/manager even knows he exists and rates him plus want san absolute oustider to the system gatecrashing the senior EPS despite still being largley unproven.
Sure hes opnly going to get the first choice spot in Wales in the short term by injury to the guy ahead of him. But I dont see that meaning hes any less liekly to get capped staying in Wales and playing for Wales. The competition for places in the Welsh squad is almost non existant, pretty much every regional sides frist choice players get capped at some point.
This weekend there was 8 English (or EQ) players starting number 8 for their clubs. Thats without the likes of Robshaw, Haskell, Crane and Easter all of who could offer comeptition for the 8 shirt at some point in the next couple of years. The only starting Welsh 8's this weekend were Falteau, Murphy and err Andy Powell.

Its much easier for a player to get in the Wales squad even if they do currently have a standout first choice player in that position.

Theres more to Morgans decision ( if its not just his agent trying to get him a better contract at his region) than simply looking for an easy roure to interntaional rugby.

You can't blame him for choosing England if he does after all he is English, it depends what deal he is offered by Lancaster.

If he chooses Wales then I reckon he will get capped during the 6 Nations and it will be great competition for Faletau.

If he opts for England and its only the Saxons then it maybe some time before he get full recognition.

Well you would hope that most international rugby players would feel allegiance to their country of Birth but we know that is not so.

He has a much easier job getting into the England squad at the moment.

Realistically their only options are Easter, likely to be left out of the EPS due to age and previous comments made post last match, Crane, untried, half decent club player who has plenty of detractors and Narroway who is currently in form, but is often not similarly to Crane. Most England fans want to hang on to Easter for as long as possible due to the situation.

In Wales he maybe be back up to Faletau, but I would be surprised if he would surpass him. Faletau is a unique player. We also already have support and experience in tried and tested players all showing good form. This weekend alone there were Jones, Murphy, Faletau and Powell all playing well for their teams. Morgan would not top those, he would become one of them. Plus Delve likely to return to Wales after the S15.

He won't be picked as long as he's playing in Wales. RFU said no exceptions, must be playing in the Jeff.

mm,

I think if he choose Wales then as we are at the moment only Toby would stop him getting a starting slot.

R Jones has impressed a lot of late but not as an 8, I think it would be great if he choose us as then there would be real competition between him and Toby and like you said if Delve came back to.

bathmad wrote:He won't be picked as long as he's playing in Wales. RFU said no exceptions, must be playing in the Jeff.

Bath,

I thought that was a 'Jonno' criteria not an RFU one? If I am wrong then being in Wales could force his hand our way.

bedfordwelsh wrote:mm,

I think if he choose Wales then as we are at the moment only Toby would stop him getting a starting slot.

R Jones has impressed a lot of late but not as an 8, I think it would be great if he choose us as then there would be real competition between him and Toby and like you said if Delve came back to.

I agree, all I was stating was that there is plenty of players all vying for a position. The competition is great.

For example if you are picking a match day 22. Faletau is fit and therefor at 8 with Lyds at 6 and Warbs at 7. You have your choice locks AWJ and Charteris, so you look at your bench. You can take a flanker most likely going to be someone who is an out and out backrower like Tuperic or McCusker and R jones who can play across the back five... Morgan would be competing against Tuperic and McCusker who are more mobile...

It would only be if Faletau was injured that Morgan would be up for a shot.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

bathmad wrote:He won't be picked as long as he's playing in Wales. RFU said no exceptions, must be playing in the Jeff.

Bath,

I thought that was a 'Jonno' criteria not an RFU one? If I am wrong then being in Wales could force his hand our way.

I think your right Bedford mate... That was one of Jonno's calls but it is an RFU mandate. Though with a lack of options these things are let slide.

mm,

In a match day squad I would be more tempted to go with Morgan and Jones and back/2nd row cover and use Lydiate or Faletau as 7 cover if needed but the options like you said is a good point.

If Morgan is no longer wanting to play for Wales because of the emergence of Faletau, I would say Wales should let him go. To me that is quite a defeatist and poor attitude, if he didn't want to play for Wales because another player looks better. He should aspire to overtake Faletau, instead of looking at the easiest route to the live stage.