HEC head-to-heads: Clermont Auvergne v Leicester

First topic message reminder :

Arguably the choicest if the head-to-head fortnight contests - ASM currently 2nd in the T14 vs a resurgent Tigers.

Mouthwatering. Before the teams are announced, I'd guess a home win for both weekends with a LBP for the visitors is on the cards.

Leicester Tigers (v ASM Clermont Auvergne, Stade Marcel Michelin, Sunday 4pm local time, 3pm UK time)
15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Horacio Agulla
13 Matt Smith
12 Manu Tuilagi
11 Alesana Tuilagi
10 Toby Flood
9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 George Chuter
3 Martin Castrogiovanni
4 Louis Deacon
5 George Skivington
6 Tom Croft
7 Julian Salvi
8 Thomas Waldrom

16 Rob Hawkins
17 Boris Stankovich
18 Dan Cole
19 Steve Mafi
20 Ed Slater
21 Sam Harrison
22 Billy Twelvetrees
23 Scott Hamilton


ASM Clermont Auvergne: 15 Lee Byrne, 14 Sitiveni Sivivatu, 13 Aurelien
Rougerie, 12 Wesley Fofana, 11 Julian Malzieu, 10 Brock James, 9 Morgan
Parra; 1 Lionel Faur4e, 2 Benjamin Kayser, 3 Davit Zirakashvili, 4
Julien Pierre, 5 Nathan Hines, 6 Gerhard Vosloo, 7 Alexandre Lapandry, 8
Julien Bonnaire. Reps: Ti'i Paulo, 17 Vincent Debaty, 18 Clement Ric,
19 Jamie Cudmore, 20 Elvis Vermeulen, 21 Kevin Senio, 22 David Skrela,
23 Regan King

Did they really say that Clermont's playing budget was 24 million Euros?!?!?

Sahem about that try on half time - but despite bullying them in teh scrums - we are not really at the races. Players are standing far too flat. Pick and drive looks the way in this game for now.

I think Flood has been very poor not looking for touch enough and not getting the backs moving at all. The forwards have been giving them the platform to do it as well.

We are very sloppy and poor with wide possession. Need to utilise our pack better if we want a result here!

Its the usual slow and stodgy fare from Leicester. Same old same old. It might be good enough in the premiership - it ain't in Europe

Two yellow cards, Chuter and Manu Tuilagi get ten minutes for dangerous tackling.

One neck high tackle by Tuilagi on the man on the ball. Chuter tacking the man with out the ball out as well neck high.

Parra misses the kick

16 - 5 to CA

I find all this French "play acting" contrary to Rugby traditions. I sincerely hope we dont see it creep into the English game.

Well this is depressing. Going from bad to worse. Need to stop the 4 tries being scored now.

Para needs slapping for that pathetic rolling around on the floor, as bad as Clerc in the RWC semi final

What play acting? Don't listen to the commentators.

Both yellows well deserved, could have been two more

TJ wrote:What play acting? Don't listen to the commentators.

Both yellows well deserved, could have been two more

Commentating is awful.. Dewi Morris constantly insinuating that Clermont are cheating...

Tigers lucky, played well when down to 13. considering their poor defence, they ground down the time.

Lovely try Wesley Fofana

30 - 5

I'm not complaining about the score but Para and some of his cheese eating surrender monkey compatriots fall to the ground twitching at the slightest touch. It's quite pathetic.

tigerleghorn

Rubbish. What about all the appealing for penalties from the Youngs - every ruck he is complaining, chucking his hands in the air and appealing - instead of just getting on with it.

Whether a player is on the floor or pretending that the incident had no effect does not change the fact that Neck High Tackles are illegal and warrant a yellow card or more...!

No gamesmanship from Para as far as you're concerned then TJ?

Not that I could see. He got taken out by and (accidental ) elbow and a high late tackle from Chuter.

I ain't saying it doesn't happen but in this game with neutral eyes It wasn't a big issue

BTW, before I'm accused of "sour grapes" I think that Tigers were well beaten.
Just dont like the soccer style theatrics that some French players bring to the game.

The yellow cards were deserved - but Parra was exagerating every contact. Both can be true you know.

As I say - like youngs constant appealing for penalties at every ruck?

Only silver lining is that Clermont only scored 3 tries. Tigers need to up it big style next week.

Pool still wide open.

We were well beaten, pure and simple. But this group aint over yet.

TJ wrote:As I say - like youngs constant appealing for penalties at every ruck?

Well Clermont were lying over the ball. did I like Youngs appealling for the ref to do something - no. Just as I did not like it when Claassens and Boss/Reddan did it in the earlier game, or the Scarlets starting scrum half yesterday.

Very exciting group - still 3 teams in it.

I prefer to see my scrummy appeal to the ref than have my players react to contact resembling a twitching road kill.

LondonTiger wrote:The yellow cards were deserved - but Parra was exagerating every contact. Both can be true you know.

You mean he should have eyes in the back of your head to look out for the tackle without the ball. Wrong game that's American. Oh wait you can't even do that in NFL either

DOD wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:The yellow cards were deserved - but Parra was exagerating every contact. Both can be true you know.

You mean he should have eyes in the back of your head to look out for the tackle without the ball. Wrong game that's American. Oh wait you can't even do that in NFL either

Oh come on, after every tackle (including non-penalised) he rolled around as if he was dying, then got back up and took the kick with no ill effects. As I said yellow cards deserved - Parra play acted. Tigers offences much worse - Parra still acted like a wendy baller.

TJ wrote:Not that I could see. He got taken out by and (accidental ) elbow and a high late tackle from Chuter.

I ain't saying it doesn't happen but in this game with neutral eyes It wasn't a big issue

Chuters wasn't high at all and was unlucky to be carded and but can understand why he was. You could even argue Para was blocking.

There was niggle all over the pitch and i was getting frustrated with clermont holding on to the tigers players on the tigers side of the ruck.

But all in all, Clermont deserved the win.

TJ wrote:Its the usual slow and stodgy fare from Leicester. Same old same old. It might be good enough in the premiership - it ain't in Europe

So glad that you claim to be neutral in this game TJ. Hate to think what youd be posting about Tigers were you to have an interest in this fixture.

Well it was - slow and stodgy from them. Slow ball 'cos youngs like to sand and watch everythign and the forwards wen't clearing out effectivly. How many times did they recycle without gettign over the gain line?

Parra might have been milking it a bit but I didn't see it I said - not that it didn't happen.

Rubbish. What about all the appealing for penalties from the Youngs - every ruck he is complaining, chucking his hands in the air and appealing - instead of just getting on with it

The Clermont players were holding onto the ball until the referee called release, which only happened when Youngs complained to him. If Rollaind wasn't so weak he would have had a Clermont player in the bin in the first half.

You mean he should have eyes in the back of your head to look out for the tackle without the ball. Wrong game that's American. Oh wait you can't even do that in NFL either.

The NFL operate a two step policy. If you are committed to the tackle and take no more than two steps before the contact then it's legal. On that basis then Chuter is fine, if you are going to draw the man and pass sometimes the player you draw will commit to a tackle before you pass. Chuter's yellow card was a very poor decision. Manu's you can't complain about but you see one of those most weekends with no yellow, where's the consistentcy.

Now should we discuss the double movement for Fofana's first try which Rollaind suspected but yet didn't use the TJ for? or Fofana's second try where Rollaind the idiot takes out Geordan and stops him competing for the kick through?

As loathe as I am to blame the standard of referreeing (especially as I have took issue with other posters on here for the same thing) that is quite possibly the worst referreeing performance I have ever seen.

Fofanas first try was clearly a double movement. If he had gone to the TMO there is no way that would have been awarded.

The Manu yellow was a 50/50 at best as he makes contact below the shoulder but does slide up... to the lette of the law it's a penalty at best. But you see that day in day out in the AP & Robocelt without a yellow being flashed.

The yellow for Chuter was farcical. He was commited to the tackle.

One of the penalties awarded against Alex Tuilagi was outrageous. The ball had clearly gone beyond the back foot and was in open play... Tui had every right to go for the ball.

Nathan Hines was repeatedly warned for blocking and holding players back beyond the realms of a yellow card being issued.

As for the Rolland 'block' on Murphy which allowed the second Fofana try was simply beyond belief.

Clermont were off their feet killing the ball at every breakdown, hence the constant protestation by Youngs to the ref, finally Rolland relented and yellow carded Clermont for it... when the game was lost.

However, Tigers hands were not good... too many dropped balls and why oh fecking why did Flood turn down 4 penalty kicks to go for the corner. That's 12 potential points gone begging which could have significantly changed the game.

Very gutted by that performance.

Clermont were off their feet killing the ball at every breakdown, hence the constant protestation by Youngs to the ref, finally Rolland relented and yellow carded Clermont for it

Apparently Youngs reacted just before the YC because there was some standing on bodies going on. Cole seemed to be suggesting boot making contact with head. Sky didn't show a replay but it looked like something else was going on in there which I think forced Rollaind's hand.

However, Tigers hands were not good... too many dropped balls and why oh fecking why did Flood turn down 4 penalty kicks to go for the corner. That's 12 potential points gone begging which could have significantly changed the game.

Tigers looked short of Jordan Crane. He's who they turn to in the big games to take the ball off of the shoulder of the half backs and drive it forward. The forwards weren't giving Youngs and Flood the options the needed on the inside option forcing them to go wide. Which is where Tigers then made a mess of it. I would say they should have shut it down and gone old school up the jumper but when the opposition infringe at will and the ref isn't on your side that's hard to do.

Whinge whinge whinge one eyed whinge. were you watching the same game? No double movement for the try, both yellows well deserved.

Youngs does that complaining thing every game he plays in trying to force the refs hand for penalties

No double movement for the try

Fofana clearly uses his knees to drive himself forward despite being held. You are allowed to place the ball not try for further movement forward. A clear double movement and penalty.

TJ wrote:Whinge whinge whinge one eyed whinge. were you watching the same game? No double movement for the try, both yellows well deserved.

Youngs does that complaining thing every game he plays in trying to force the refs hand for penalties

TJ leave the wind ups to the Welsh. They're far better at it than you scots. The only reason for your presence on this thread is to WUM & gloat.

I am leaving this thread alone now - other than to say that the right team won, Tigers got what they deserved which was nothing, while Clermont did not deserve a TBP.

There are plenty of things to whinge about, but the result was fair.

Everyone has known for a while now that Rolland is a Poopie ref.

Metaltiger

i genuinley think there is an issue here that Itougched on on another thread. In the avaiva the slower game and the less competing for the ball at the breakdown means the teams are used to playing in a certain way and when they come into Europe and internationals where the game is played faster and there is more competition at the breakdown they either complain about penalties not given or give away loads themselves.

its not the refs at fault - is the way the English teams are used to playing.

I accept being a bit harsh about the way I made the point and apologise for that - its just its usually the welsh who are only every beaten by a bad ref. I just hate people whinging about refs with a one eyed glance. I saw two more incidents that the ref could have yellow carded Leicester player one of which reallyshould have been

TJ wrote:Metaltiger

i genuinley think there is an issue here that Itougched on on another thread. In the avaiva the slower game and the less competing for the ball at the breakdown means the teams are used to playing in a certain way and when they come into Europe and internationals where the game is played faster and there is more competition at the breakdown they either complain about penalties not given or give away loads themselves.

its not the refs at fault - is the way the English teams are used to playing.

I accept being a bit harsh about the way I made the point and apologise for that - its just its usually the welsh who are only every beaten by a bad ref. I just hate people whinging about refs with a one eyed glance. I saw two more incidents that the ref could have yellow carded Leicester player one of which reallyshould have been

Surely if there's more competition at the breakdown, it would be a slower game as the other team would be trying to slow it down....

I mean quicker in running and quicker in that you have to get your ball out of the rucks quickly. so the ball is pushed back at arms length not crqadled against the body.

TJ wrote:I mean quicker in running and quicker in that you have to get your ball out of the rucks quickly. so the ball is pushed back at arms length not crqadled against the body.

if that's what you mean i've never seen a difference between the aviva, super 15, rabo or the top 14...

The major difference between the Irish and indeed the French interpretation of the rules and the AP is that the defending team is allowed far more leeway in it's attempts to slow or steal the ball. The AP refs are very quick to whistle when the defending team try to disrupt a ruck and tend to favour the attacking side. The Irish and French refs seem to be keen for each ruck to become a battle and seem to want competition irrelevent of how legal it is.

Hence flopping over and coming in from a funny angle are far more allowable.

Everyone has known for a while now that Rolland is a Poopie ref

I did have a bad feeling when it was annouced that he was reffing.

I agree we didn't play well enough to win and probably got what we deserved which is nothing. Just can't help feeling that had Rollands style completely stifled Tigers attempts to play. Had the decisions been a little more balanced then maybe we would have played better, or maybe we wouldn't. But that's done with now I guess.

Our future is in our own hands. We need to beat Clermont next week or we are effectively out of Europe.

I think we can still finish second in the group and squeeze through that way but as we found out last year that just drags it out a bit longer and away from home against a top European side is a tough ask.

Tigers need to get a proper no 8 running off the shoulders of Flood and Youngs next week. Get a proper 12 in and take the shots at goal when offered don't let Floody get carried away, he likes running rugby too much.

A nice discussion of the referees here. Just thought I'd mention that if the same matter was discussed by someone who was Welsh, they would get accused of bemoaning the ref.

Morgannwg wrote:A nice discussion of the referees here. Just thought I'd mention that if the same matter was discussed by someone who was Welsh, they would get accused of bemoaning the ref.

There's a difference in this thread and some of the others. Most people concede that the best team won, but the ref had a shocker. Other threads, the posters say that the only reason for their team losing was because of the ref.

Depends entirely on the circumstance Morgannwg. Sometimes I have sympathy sometimes I don't depends entirely whether I side with the ref or not.

I would have liked to chip in with my tupporth.

Unfortunately Virgin media collapsed in a heap of nothingness on Sunday locally.

R5 and R5SX failed to provide anything worthy in the way of commentary or updates.

Virgin Media are a waste of time and energy. I really wish I'd stumped up the £120 to have a BT landline installed in my house when I moved in. Virgin Media are an incompetent bunch of .

Sky despite their dodgey reputation have always treated us fairly and were than happy to install the satelite and box for free at our convenience when we moved.