India vs West Indies, First Test Debate

The first of 3 test between India and the West Indies is beginning tomorrow, in Delhi.
For India, its the opportunity to recover from the humiliation of the disaster of the England tour, and get all their malfunctioning parts back to order. It also is an opportunity to introduce new players to test cricket. R Ashwin is surely set to debut in this format, and one of Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron also should make his debut.
The number 6 position should see a close contest between Yuvraj Singh, Virat Kohli and Ajinkya Rahane. As of now, Yuvraj seems to be the favorit.
The West Indies should try to put up a good fight. In the series back home, they were able to do just that, and their pace bowling unit led by Fidel Edwards and Ravi Rampaul, with able support from young Devendra Bishoo asked stern questions of the Indian batting lineup. India is playing a stronger lineup though, with Sehwag, Gambhir, and Tendulkar back in there. But among the 3, only Gautam Gambhir has got any serious match practice underhis belt, and the WI bowlers should maintain pressure on the batting right away.
The key question for the WI is whether they'll play Rampaul or young Roach, as the balance of the side, and presence of Daren Sammy in the lineup as one of the 4 bowlers do not allow pleying them both.
Its winter time in Delhi, and therefore some late starts and early finish can be expected. Overnight dew should offer some early life in the pitch as well.
Hopes there will be some quality cricket.

India need to be brave and drop Laxman. Sadly they are too scared to look to the future.

Rahane, Kohli, Yadav and Ashwin should play.

Sammy ruins the balance of the West Indies side. If he wasn't playing, then Fidel, Rampaul and Roach is a powerhouse fast bowling unit. Bishoo is the key man, but will face a very strong batting unit unlike the home series.

i think india will phase out the greats slowly.

Dravid: already retired from limited over formats probably 2 years left in tests at the most.

Tendulkar: Has most likely played his last odi for india, i think 2 years at the most for him as well.

Laxman: hasnt played odi cricket for years, and think he will be out of the test side by the end of next year

cricketfan90 wrote:i think india will phase out the greats slowly.

Dravid: already retired from limited over formats probably 2 years left in tests at the most.

Tendulkar: Has most likely played his last odi for india, i think 2 years at the most for him as well.

Laxman: hasnt played odi cricket for years, and think he will be out of the test side by the end of next year

Laxman's last dance should be against Australia as he batters them at will.

Just read on Cricinfo that Yuvraj and Ojha will play? What's the point in having two left arm spinners? Might as well give Sharma ago.

Having Rahul Sharma playing means India will be going in with 3 bowlers on debut. Even their most experienced bowler, Ishant Sharma, has an experience of 30 odd tests. Aaron, Sharma, and even Yadav, are light even on first class experience.

Demon Racer wrote:India need to be brave and drop Laxman. Sadly they are too scared to look to the future.

Rahane, Kohli, Yadav and Ashwin should play.

Sammy ruins the balance of the West Indies side. If he wasn't playing, then Fidel, Rampaul and Roach is a powerhouse fast bowling unit. Bishoo is the key man, but will face a very strong batting unit unlike the home series.

Laxman has been playing superb cricket over the last couple of years, being India's go to man in a crisis. Agreed he had a bad series in England. But he played sublime cricket in South Africa, against Australia, and against Sri Lanka.
He was good during the West Indies tour as well, playing a level above anyone else on the trickiest of tracks, in the 2nd test.
May be India should look to rotate the youngsters, resting one of the fab 3 in every match. And of course that number 6 place is not anyone's, or its everyone's for the taking.

msp83 wrote:Having Rahul Sharma playing means India will be going in with 3 bowlers on debut. Even their most experienced bowler, Ishant Sharma, has an experience of 30 odd tests. Aaron, Sharma, and even Yadav, are light even on first class experience.

Although Ashwin and/or Aaron/Yadav will debut, they have all represented India so they won't be as nervous. Looking at Rahul Sharma's stats, he looks a good limited overs bowler and seems to be useful with the bat. Give him a home, debuting at home against modest opposition,what would Inda lose?

ps so many Sharma's, I'm getting confused!!!

Something i read on CI, from an Indian cricket journalist who said that Indian's see the Test series against the Windies, as the lettuce between the hamburger and the relish, ie England and Austrailia.

After that statement,

Will the lettuce wilt or will it be crisp?

Sammy wins the toss, West Indies to bat first.

Yuvraj Singh makes a comeback, but no debut for Aaron.

India:

Ghambir, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Singh, Dhoni, Ashwin, Sharma, Ojha, Yadav.


West Indies:

Powell, Brathwaite, Edwards, Bravo, Chanderpaul, Samuels, Baugh, Sammy, Rampaul, F Edwards, Bishoo.

If you were a WI supporter, the averages of the openers would not instill you with much confidence: 16 and 22.

the pitch is slow, low, a graveyard for pacers.....but offering slow turns.
it is not easy to score runs.......but not easy to get out either.

if WI play sensibly...they can pull out a draw

Shivnarine Chanderpaul scores runs against India for fun, and He is yet again out there in the middle to inflict torment.
Even Ramnaresh and Sarwan and Chris Gayle have put up runs against the Indians in tests or ODIs, but unlike them, Shiv doesn't give even a sense of hope that he'll get out.
Its just incredible the WI management wanted him to retire at the end of the WC.

Chanders is showing how to play the Indian spinners. Using his feet and playing down the ground more often than not. By scoring at a fair clip, he is taking any pressure off young Brathwaite, who is playing a determined innings out there. Impressive sense of maturity and patience from an 18 year old.

Dhoni should bring the seamers back now, to see if there is any revers on offer.
How on earth are they going to get Chanderpaul out? He's taking the attack to Ashwin, 47 of 72, the tempo of the innings reflects his experience. Getting bog down would have allowed the Indian spinners to attack more.

50 for Chanderpaul!. How long will India have to face this torcher?

Good to see Sehwag giving his sholder some work out, but may be Dhoni will have to go back to his seamers.

msp83 wrote:Dhoni should bring the seamers back now, to see if there is any revers on offer.
How on earth are they going to get Chanderpaul out? He's taking the attack to Ashwin, 47 of 72, the tempo of the innings reflects his experience. Getting bog down would have allowed the Indian spinners to attack more.

it doesn't help getting restless.
test cricket flows like tides.....high and low.
the partnership is less than 80
WI can still bundle for less than 250

good to have Yuvraj and sehwag type bolwers in the 11.

Yuv thouhg lacking rythm and loop that we saw in w'cup...arm coming too much for the side...bowling flat and wayward

India won the first session, but the 2nd session belongs to the WI, even though they lost Bravo early. Chanderpaul has taken command, and young Brathwaite is griddy and determined.
Cricinfo describes the test as attritional, that's what it is going to be, on a slow and low surface where there is nothing at all for the pacers unless it reverse swings, and only slow turn for the spinners. Even the batsmen have a struggle in their hands, as run scoring isn't easy either.
Attacking the stumps, hoping the batsman would miss one, that's the way for the bowler, the batter can hope nothing would stay too low and creep through

^ we shouldn't jump the gun.....braithW is gone.
Chanders has lived a chaced life in the last few overs...against Oja and yadav...
Oja getting tunr and yadav a shade of reverse

Test cricket ebbs and tides.......WI could still be bundled for 250

on a pitch like this...it's a battle of first innings lead.

if India get WI for less than 300.....they take honors
If WI get 400+.....WI take honors

anything in between is distributed honors

Marlon samuels has been tied in knots by ojha, he hasnt looked comfortable at all

samuels gone he didnt look confident at all.

12 overs left in the day and they have only got to 200, extremely slow rate, only around 2.5 an over.

a lot of average batsman don't read ashwin very well.

althouhg the good players of spin watching his hand and landing of feet should pick up the differences.

saqlains biggest give-aways was the landing of his foot

overthrows....Windies just starting to get some quick runs, and putting the pressure back on india bowlers. Chanderpaul approaching another test match hundred

India have already made it their day, but Chanderpaul is yet again, proving to be beyond them!. What a master. He had periods when he struggled, but the important thing is that he didn't give it away.
Samuels never looked comfortable while he was out there. His struggles and Bravo's recklessness underscores the significance of Brathwaite's efforts.

why do they put someone as imporatnt like gambhir at FwdShtlg?
whey does he stand there without arm guards?

to feel morally elevated India needs to get chanders.
He took away the last test away from an indian win also

we need one more wkt today to seal it as India's day

hundred number 7 for Chanderpaul against India. A never ending torment, but what a legend!.
by the way how bad was that Gambhir hit? has things started going wrong for India already?

gambhir has gone off the field......hit on thr ight arm......didn't look in as much pain.....with cold packs should be OK.

ashwin and Oja...same age...25...indian FC crickets two best spinners....very identical averages and Strike rates..althouhg Oja has played more tests and FC games

some lose cricket by india sicne they took the 5th wkt.
offered about 50 cheap runs

i would say advantage windies on day 1

however they do need at least 400 in their first innings, sehwag, tendulkar and dravid all back in the line up.

^ India is slightly ahead still.....with WI down on the mat instead of choking the opponents...they let them take a few deep breaths.

Inexperience of Seamers showed, especially with the new ball

i do think that the windies should have gone in with 2 spinners. Who else is in the squad wish bishoo? is it shillingford?

I think Ashwin has a better record than Ojha even in domestic games. he has already taken 10 wckets in an inninga twice ( I think). Selcetion of Rahul Sharma is baffling as he is not the first spinner fo his home side even

wow wrote:I think Ashwin has a better record than Ojha even in domestic games. he has already taken 10 wckets in an inninga twice ( I think). Selcetion of Rahul Sharma is baffling as he is not the first spinner fo his home side even

Oja has a better SR over a larger sample size than Ashwin....but I do believe ashwin will catch up.

rahul and even aaron are selections based on what's called raw potential....very pakistani styled.....just pluck out talent based on visual observations....and throw them at the highest level.

there is a strong culture in subcontinent to catch a talent on observation and pluck out a winner.
Imran was a genius at that...Akram, Waqar, Inzy......he plucked out so many gems with nil or little FC bacground.

anu_d wrote:

wow wrote:I think Ashwin has a better record than Ojha even in domestic games. he has already taken 10 wckets in an inninga twice ( I think). Selcetion of Rahul Sharma is baffling as he is not the first spinner fo his home side even

Oja has a better SR over a larger sample size than Ashwin....but I do believe ashwin will catch up.

rahul and even aaron are selections based on what's called raw potential....very pakistani styled.....just pluck out talent based on visual observations....and throw them at the highest level.

there is a strong culture in subcontinent to catch a talent on observation and pluck out a winner.
Imran was a genius at that...Akram, Waqar, Inzy......he plucked out so many gems with nil or little FC bacground.

Sorav too was good at it, he han picked bhajji and could be given the credit for yuvi and dhoni as well.

In 34 first class macthes Ashwin has already taken 3 ten wickets haul whereas Ojha has none in 45 macthes.

Ojha
P w ave.
45 178 29.44

Ashwin
34 134 28.12


I am not discouting Ojha but to me he comes across as a very ordinary bowler. I think Iqbal Abdullah or for that matter even Jadeja could have been given the chance considering his recent run of form.

wow wrote:In 34 first class macthes Ashwin has already taken 3 ten wickets haul whereas Ojha has none in 45 macthes.

Ojha
P w ave.
45 178 29.44

Ashwin
34 134 28.12


I am not discouting Ojha but to me he comes across as a very ordinary bowler. I think Iqbal Abdullah or for that matter even Jadeja could have been given the chance considering his recent run of form.

First-class 55 13416 6446 234 7/114 27.54 2.88 57.3 9 13 1

OJA has 234 wkts in 55 games from what i can see on CI...that's 4.25 wkts/ game and 57 balls / wkt

First-class 34 57 8494 3769 134 6/64 11/129 28.12 2.66 63.3 1 11 3

ASHWIN has 134 wkts in 34 games...that's about 3.9 wkts/ game and at 63 balls/ wkt.

the measure of the potency of any bowler are his strike rates.....measured in wkts/ game and more importantly balls/ wkt...and on both thsoe meausres Oja is reasonably ahead ....and over a bigger number of games.

Sorav too was good at it, he han picked bhajji and could be given the credit for yuvi and dhoni as well..

true dada was good.
he handpicked many gems based on potential.....and gave them a run...and tuned them into stars who are stills serving Indian cricket.
such as Yuv, Kaif, Sehwag, Zaheer, Nehra, Dhoni, Bhajji, D.Mongia ( who shone briefly) , I Pathan
Dhoni's era has most talent inherited from the Ganguly era.

Ganguly himself had a bit of talent brought from the Azhar era...
Azzu inspite of his limitaions as a captain was good in picking up talent...Dravid, ganguly, tendulkar, Laxman, Kumble Srinath, Prasad......one full generation of 1990s stars were backed and groomed by azhar, many of whon are running strong till dte

Dhoni on the contrary is less of a visionary, more an excellent onfield operations manger, with whatever resources you give him. His era has other wise been generally barren in terms of identifying long term superstars.

Ojha's first class stats are better than Ashwin's if you remove Ojha's Test stats . Ojha's average drops to around 24 runs per wicket, but Ashwin plays his home game on a flat Madras pitch.

I dont know as why Wiki was showing old stats for Ojha. I agree that with the new stats Ojha does look a better bowler.
Lets see how his test career takes shape. Though Ashwin a better batsman and more fight in his belly.

wow wrote:I dont know as why Wiki was showing old stats for Ojha. I agree that with the new stats Ojha does look a better bowler.
Lets see how his test career takes shape. Though Ashwin a better batsman and more fight in his belly.

There not 'old stats', when you play Tests, its gets added on to your first class record. In Ojha's case his Test record is considerably worst than his first class record.

Demon Racer wrote:

wow wrote:I dont know as why Wiki was showing old stats for Ojha. I agree that with the new stats Ojha does look a better bowler.
Lets see how his test career takes shape. Though Ashwin a better batsman and more fight in his belly.

There not 'old stats', when you play Tests, its gets added on to your first class record. In Ojha's case his Test record is considerably worst than his first class record.

If that is the case then his first class record whould be worse as Ojha's test record is not as good as his class one matces.

Ojha stats breakdown:

Overall 1st class record:

55 games - 234 wickets @ 27.54. This includes 13 5 wicket hauls and 1 10 wicket haul. 4.25 wickets per match.

Test record:

11 games - 42 wickets @ 40.40. 3.81 wickets per match.

When Test record is removed from first class record:

44 games - 192 wickets @ 24.73. This includes 13 5 wicket hauls and 1 10 wicket haul. 4.36 wickets per match.

This cannot be right, I think wiki has got it wrong because as per wiki Ojha has played 45 list A matches and taken 174 wickets so it is impossible for Ojha to take 192 wickets for 44 list a matches.

Ojha has had one of the better days as India's test spinner. Ashwin has had a decent first day in office.
Punjab's number 1 spinner and captain who used to play for India in the past, meanwhile got smashed around by the UP boys in the Ranji trophy.

interesting first day, Brathwaite with a vital and gritty fifty, and Chanderpaul with a great knock. Indian spinners doing the damage (which is hardly that surprising given WI's desperately poor play of spin in general). How's the pitch looking?

Can't help but feel India let WI off the hook a bit at the end, but overall India are probably marginally on top. WI will be looking at 350 minimum from here, while India will be hoping they don't get much over 300.

India will have to somehow find a way to stop Chanderpaul. With him out there, you can expect the WI tail to also fight it out. Remember he and Bishoo had a match winning partnership against Pakistan early this year.
Baugh is a fighter, and Sammy can be a good slogger. Rampaul has shown considerable spirit with the bat in the past.
So India has to come out with intensity in the morning.
The cricinfo report has not much on Gambhir getting hit. So I hope its not very serious.