Englands worst ever XV

First topic message reminder :

1.Paul Doran Jones
2. David Paice
3. Tim Payne
4.Mauritz Botha
5.
6.
7. Michael Lipman?
8. Jordan Crane
9. Paul Hodgeson
10.
11. Lesley Vanikolo
12. Andy Farrell
13. Ayoola Erinle
14. Ian Balshaw
15. Mark Van Gisbergen

Notable mention - Henry Paul, Jordan Turner Hall, Shaun Perry,

How on earth is Iain Balshaw in the OP's team?! As much as I disliked him he was a quality player. Excellent strike runner. Almost effortlessly glided across the field and scored some wonderful tries.

Take Iain Balshaw out of that team I agree - he was an top class strike runner from 15 when he first came on the scene.

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Rugby Fan wrote:

Perhaps the worst XV should be captained by Steve Borthwick - combined being a poor captain with being slightly under-powered as an international 2nd row (even if a very good club player).

I thought Borthwick was OK as Captain - except he kept getting smashed by Celtic tacklers, which is dispiriting.

He's an example of someone with an exceptional rugby brain, but without the power or speed to be a good international in his position. Which is probably the perfect grounding to be a great coach.

Alex

The issues with Borthwick as a captain were :
1 - on a lead by example basis, having a 2nd row who spent more time going backwards than forwards, he didn't inspire others
2 - He led a side that lost quite a lot, so my indelible image of him is being interviewed pitch side, with that inevitable cut on the bridge of his nose, looking a bit depressed and explaining how the team would learn from the most recent set-back.

There's some real nonsense spouted above. Cueto was a try machine in his first incarnation for England.
Maybe not the greatest player ever but not even close to the worst wing they've had and wouldn't have had so many caps if he was.
Vanilkolo produced nothing for England despite all the hype

It does seem to be " name some players in the 2004-2013 period you don't like" rather than worst ever.

The ineptness of England sides pre 90s was much greater and with far more players who had no right to be on a test rugby pitch getting capped. How bad players and teams were in the decade or so post Woodward seems massively inflated in peoples minds.

There's also the spare parts from the 1998 tour squad like Spencer Brown, Jos Baxendale, and Scott benton

There's been some really pretty mediocre players capped even in the time most of us are young enough to remember.

Goose

I don't think anyone really reckons Cueto should be in a 'worst XV' or even anywhere near. It was more a digression about how some players seem to earn a lot more caps than perhaps their ability explains - Cueto fit well into what England wanted at the time (especially later in his England career - he was a good finisher early on even if not greatly creative), which was a solid defender with a big boot who played almost like a second fullback. The question most of us are really considering is whether a winger should be being picked primarily for those reasons, or whether a more dangerous strike runner would have been a better pick.

I'd say that Matt Bananaman was a far worse international winger of that period, and yes, Big Les Vainikolo did nothing in Union to justify his selection (was an outstanding rugby league winger though)

Matt Banahan and Shontayne Hape in the centres.

I think Sam Burgess should also be in the team. Did absolutely nothing to warrant selection.

Shane Geraghty at out half.

Heres my team:

15. Goode
14. Banahan
13 Burgess
12 Hape
11 Phil Christophers
10 Geraghty
9 Nick Walshe
8 James Forrester
7 Joe Worsley (Not a bad player but not 78 caps and one Lions tour good)
6 Steve White-Cooper
5 Nick Kennedy
4 Alex Codling
3 Jason Hobson
2 Matt Cairns
1 Darren Crompton

Subs
Olly Smith (How did he make the Lions???)
Mathew Tait
Henry Paul
Mark Mapletoft
Tom Croft

Some odd choices there Guns (considering we're talking about 'worst ever').

Worsley, Tait and Croft shouldn't be anywhere near a 'worst ever'.

Burgess was good. It was when he was taken off we fell apart.

Lets be honest. None of England's worst ever 15 will be from the professional era.

Cyril wrote:Some odd choices there Guns (considering we're talking about 'worst ever').

Worsley, Tait and Croft shouldn't be anywhere near a 'worst ever'.

Some great calls too if I do say so myself. Tait was terrible. Ok Worsley and Croft were decent but got way more caps than they should have for their ability and should never have been Lions.

In fairness no one is approaching this as "the worst ever" because England rugby goes back a hundred years or so.

Scottrf wrote:Burgess was good. It was when he was taken off we fell apart.

Lets be honest. None of England's worst ever 15 will be from the professional era.

Still makes me laugh

You pick a guy with absolutely no real qualifications for the job in a RWC, he shuts Wales down in midfield and then, at the critical moment after he's been effectively doing the job, you take him off and open the door. Too funny

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Some odd choices there Guns (considering we're talking about 'worst ever').

Worsley, Tait and Croft shouldn't be anywhere near a 'worst ever'.

Some great calls too if I do say so myself. Tait was terrible. Ok Worsley and Croft were decent but got way more caps than they should have for their ability and should never have been Lions.

In fairness no one is approaching this as "the worst ever" because England rugby goes back a hundred years or so.

Even if you're talking within the last 20 years only, they're still not in the reckoning.

Tait wasn't brilliant but he wasn't terrible. He had a cracking 2007 WC Final (the one where we were robbed!).

Cracking by England's standards. England making the final that year was one of the great rugby anomalies of the last century. Anyway thats why I had him as sub.

Phil Dowson must be in with a shout at 8. Excellent club player but never had what was needed to make the step up.

Bit harsh on James Forrester there, Guns. He had a lot of talent but injury stopped it from ever being realised.

Monye as a full back has to be in with a shout too.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Cracking by England's standards. England making the final that year was one of the great rugby anomalies of the last century. Anyway thats why I had him as sub.

Meanwhile Ireland were celebrating their historic win over Georgia.

Another lucky win with Wayne Barnes reffing

The less said about Barnes the better. All kinds of dodgy stuff going on.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The less said about Barnes the better. All kinds of dodgy stuff going on.

Is it true he went to school in Wales?

Haha

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The less said about Barnes the better. All kinds of dodgy stuff going on.

Is it true he went to school in Wales?

Cyril you have to be the dullest person on this forum. Your raison d'être seems to be to make some witless remark about Wales given any and every opportunity and is designed to make you appear more amusing when you clearly aren't; your clear need to get a laugh at every opportunity is tragic and smacks of insufficient time at the teat.

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The less said about Barnes the better. All kinds of dodgy stuff going on.

Is it true he went to school in Wales?

Cyril you have to be the dullest person on this forum. Your raison d'être seems to be to make some witless remark about Wales given any and every opportunity and is designed to make you appear more amusing when you clearly aren't; your clear need to get a laugh at every opportunity is tragic and smacks of insufficient time at the teat.

You're a proper ray of sunshine on these boards

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The less said about Barnes the better. All kinds of dodgy stuff going on.

Is it true he went to school in Wales?

Cyril you have to be the dullest person on this forum. Your raison d'être seems to be to make some witless remark about Wales given any and every opportunity and is designed to make you appear more amusing when you clearly aren't; your clear need to get a laugh at every opportunity is tragic and smacks of insufficient time at the teat.

You're a proper ray of sunshine on these boards

I'd rather be honest than a sycophant.

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The less said about Barnes the better. All kinds of dodgy stuff going on.

Is it true he went to school in Wales?

Cyril you have to be the dullest person on this forum. Your raison d'être seems to be to make some witless remark about Wales given any and every opportunity and is designed to make you appear more amusing when you clearly aren't; your clear need to get a laugh at every opportunity is tragic and smacks of insufficient time at the teat.

I thought it was pretty funny but I suspect he was having a go at me more than a stab at Wales.

You can never get enough teat time. I agree with you on that.

Just pick a team from 1998 Tour of hell squad TBF cant be bothered checking if they all got caps, but ive never heard of half these guys, and the results speak for themselves

Fullback[edit]
Nick Beal (Northampton Saints).

Utilities[edit]
Spencer Brown (Richmond),

Wingers[edit]
Tom Beim (Sale Sharks), Matt Moore (Sale Sharks)

Centres[edit]
Stuart Potter (Leicester Tigers), Dominic Chapman (Richmond)

Flyhalves[edit]
Jos Baxendell (Sale Sharks).

Scrumhalves[edit]
Scott Benton (Gloucester)

Loose-Forwards[edit]
Steve Ojomoh (Bath), Richard Pool-Jones (Stade Francais Paris), Ben Sturnham (Saracens), Ben Clarke (Richmond),

Locks[edit]
Dave Sims (Gloucester), Rob Fidler (Gloucester),


Props[edit]
Will Green (Wasps), Darren Crompton (Richmond) Tony Windo (Gloucester).

Hookers[edit]
Phil Greening (Gloucester)

Brown at 15

Gwlad wrote:Brown at 15

Here we go again.

The centre combination of Erinle and Noon? Neither were horrendous on their own, but combined... The outside backs might as well have been wearing giant foam hands pointing directly at chests of the opposition players because that is where our centres would be running towards, no deviation.

Andy Long surely has to be in with a shout at hooker??

Can I just say that in terms of rank awfulness, Scotland's worst team would, er, defecate all over England's worst ever. We are much worse than you. It's a non-starter to argue.

I grew up watching Dan Parks, for example.

Kevin Sims - played centre for England between 1985 to 1988 and won 15 caps. My experience of playing against him was in a 7's game, where I repeatedly managed to run round him. Not such an issue if I was a whippet fast wing, but as I was a quite large second row it puts his physical prowess into perspective.

I would partner him with Matt Banahan. As noted above, he was perhaps one of the unlucky players to be played out of position, but his performances for England as a centre were shocking - constantly ran across the pitch taking away all the space for the wingers and passing to invisible players in the crowd.

Second row Steve Bainbridge part of the last England team to lose to Scotland at Twickenham in 1983. I was unlucky enough to be there that day and England were atrocious. Should have stuck to the decathlon. That England team of 1983 was very poor and quite a few of that team have been mentioned above.

George Carlin wrote:Can I just say that in terms of rank awfulness, Scotland's worst team would, er, defecate all over England's worst ever. We are much worse than you. It's a non-starter to argue.

I grew up watching Dan Parks, for example.

No arguments here

Gwlad wrote:Brown at 15

For a team that had Marcus Rose play fullback? By comparison Brown is a Lomu-esque superstar...

I suspect that as a child Gwlad was frightened by Brown's angry face. Several months later he's obviously still getting nightmares

Wobshaw at 6.

You must not pick on Gwlad just because he is dyslectic. We all have our problems, he just has more than most, all of them incurable.

Back on track Barry-John Mather at centre is a possible.

In fact there are a number of ex league players who could deserve a mention (Henry Paul, Vanikolo (sp))

Eddie jones as HC

Gwlad wrote:Eddie jones as HC

Yeah he lost a game Feckin awful.

You really make no sense at all

lostinwales wrote:Back on track Barry-John Mather at centre is a possible.

In fact there are a number of ex league players who could deserve a mention (Henry Paul, Vanikolo (sp))

See OP. We went through a phase of 'anything from League' will be better. That seemed to have slowed a bit of late.
Eastmond is another that showed real potential - but hasn't kicked on - still time for him though (perhaps).

Burgess issue is well documented - but I actually thought he did very well for England
Hape is another that gave England what they needed at the time.


I think maybe the successes have been the drivers - as when it worked it spectacularly worked
Brad Thorn, Robinson, Lote Tukiri, Rodgers, SBW to name a few.
So on the off chance you get one of these there are plenty of League'ers that don't.

Eastmond should have been converted to scrum half. (Like Goode should have been a fly half rather than a full back.)

Never understood why Eastmond wasn't given a run at Scrum half for Bath.

I would have thought he had all the skills, don't remember him having a bad pass on him so I don't think that would have been a problem. Maybe box kicking wasn't his thing but I would have thought his running skills would have outweighted that.

TightHEAD wrote:Never understood why Eastmond wasn't given a run at Scrum half for Bath.

I would have thought he had all the skills, don't remember him having a bad pass on him so I don't think that would have been a problem. Maybe box kicking wasn't his thing but I would have thought his running skills would have outweighted that.

I think there would have been a lot more to learn- the 'conversion' process would have been harder but the end result could have been something special. Box kicking would have been a big deal, and I have no idea if he could have mastered that or not.

Shane Geraghty at 10?

Did Geraghty ever play 10 for England?
Thought he had a few cameo's in the midfield.

Matt Taits showings for England......now he should be on the list!

propdavid_london wrote:Did Geraghty ever play 10 for England?
Thought he had a few cameo's in the midfield.

Matt Taits showings for England......now he should be on the list!

Yeah his debut for England was at 10. Mind you he wasn't that bad that day. Ollie Devoto, Stephen Myler, Freddie Burns, Dave Walder, Mark Mapletoft all got capped at 10 for England too.

I am sure there was a season when Tom May got capped @10 too!

Has Anthony Allen got a mention yet? Again, like many of the above he was a really good club player and had some memorable moments (See this for reference) but in his two caps he was absolutely awful, remember him throwing a horrible interception try in that game England lost to Argentina at Twickenham.

Still, a very solid Premiership player and was really unlucky to be forced to retire early after being a good servant for Gloucester and Leicester.

George Carlin wrote:Can I just say that in terms of rank awfulness, Scotland's worst team would, er, defecate all over England's worst ever. We are much worse than you. It's a non-starter to argue.

I grew up watching Dan Parks, for example.

Who are you kidding?? You're way too old!

sittingringside wrote:Has Anthony Allen got a mention yet? Again, like many of the above he was a really good club player and had some memorable moments but in his two caps he was absolutely awful, remember him throwing a horrible interception try in that game England lost to Argentina at Twickenham.

Still, a very solid Premiership player and was really unlucky to be forced to retire early after being a good servant for Gloucester and Leicester.

Bit harsh to judge a player based on 2 caps when barely 20 having been selected on the back of just a handful of games by a panicking Andy Robinson.

LondonTiger wrote:

sittingringside wrote:Has Anthony Allen got a mention yet? Again, like many of the above he was a really good club player and had some memorable moments but in his two caps he was absolutely awful, remember him throwing a horrible interception try in that game England lost to Argentina at Twickenham.

Still, a very solid Premiership player and was really unlucky to be forced to retire early after being a good servant for Gloucester and Leicester.

Bit harsh to judge a player based on 2 caps when barely 20 having been selected on the back of just a handful of games by a panicking Andy Robinson.

Probably harsh yeah, but they were two of the worst performances I've seen from an England centre. Perhaps if he'd been brought along the right way then it could have been completely different but we'll never know will we?