New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

[Sin é]

I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

[Exiledinborders]

IIRC the Quote about the amount came from an Irish source, It has neither been confirmed or denied by PRL/BT

Yep, I wonder why that is?

What's wrong with an Irish source? Are you intimating that just because he is Irish, he is a liar?

But one might question how an Irish source happens to know about a confidential agreement between BT and PRL.

[broadlandboy]

Not saying he is lying just strange that he seems to be the only one who knows outside of PRL/BT & is talking

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

Tickets were not more expensive. Would it be possible for you to make your point without peddling lies?

[Sin é]

not within ERC they cant. as all those rights go to SKY who then sell them on. The french league doesnt get to sell its own TV rights to ERC and keep the money itself. those rights belong to the ERC, and the money gets distributed according to the "subsidy" model

Sky only have the rights for UK & Ireland so far.

[broadlandboy]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

[Sin é]

I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

Tickets were not more expensive. Would it be possible for you to make your point without peddling lies?

Well more fool them because nearly everyone else charges more. Not often you get people queuing for tickets.

[quinsforever]

i could translate the whole thing for you but i think this just about covers it...

SNAFU

[quinsforever]

not within ERC they cant. as all those rights go to SKY who then sell them on. The french league doesnt get to sell its own TV rights to ERC and keep the money itself. those rights belong to the ERC, and the money gets distributed according to the "subsidy" model

Sky only have keep the rights for UK & Ireland and Italyso far.

you're welcome, no charge.

[Sin é]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Are you sure they are giving up? Sounds more like the Unions intend strengthening their control on the running of rugby by setting up a FIFA style organisation.

[Guest]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

[quinsforever]

it's both.

ERC is dead

and just like UEFA in football, the RFU will be tasked by the PRL with getting them as much money as possible from european club competition. UEFA also sells Champions League rights by country (which is what PRL were trying to do) and that has a big influence on the majority of the monies distributed afterwards.

[thebandwagonsociety]

it's both.

ERC is dead

and just like UEFA in football, the RFU will be tasked by the PRL with getting them as much money as possible from european club competition. UEFA also sells Champions League rights by country (which is what PRL were trying to do) and that has a big influence on the majority of the monies distributed afterwards.

Did ERC not sell the HCup rights by country? Are games in France for HCup on Sky Sports exclusively?


P.S. now that this thread has gone over 1000 posts can we kill yet another rambling European Club Competition of the Future Thread.

[Guest]

it's both.

ERC is dead

and just like UEFA in football, the RFU will be tasked by the PRL with getting them as much money as possible from european club competition. UEFA also sells Champions League rights by country (which is what PRL were trying to do) and that has a big influence on the majority of the monies distributed afterwards.

Did ERC not sell the HCup rights by country? Are games in France for HCup on Sky Sports exclusively?


P.S. now that this thread has gone over 1000 posts can we kill yet another rambling European Club Competition of the Future Thread.

Ok, but I'm having the last word  

[mystiroakey]

 

[quinsforever]

it's both.

ERC is dead

and just like UEFA in football, the RFU will be tasked by the PRL with getting them as much money as possible from european club competition. UEFA also sells Champions League rights by country (which is what PRL were trying to do) and that has a big influence on the majority of the monies distributed afterwards.

Did ERC not sell the HCup rights by country? Are games in France for HCup on Sky Sports exclusively?


P.S. now that this thread has gone over 1000 posts can we kill yet another rambling European Club Competition of the Future Thread.

SKY hold the rights to 5 countries for HC, but as far as i can make out, SKY won the rights to the whole kit and caboodle, and on-sold the french ones to canal+ and france2. that's the only way the revenue numbers make sense.

[Guest]

 

 

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation? Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation?  Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

No, no, no and a thousand times no. I revile PRL for their protectionism within the English game, and sucking all the wealth from it. I revile ERC for their protectionism within the European game and sucking all the wealth from it.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys seem to have finessed both the Unions and PRL (and factions within LNR) although that all remains to be seen. FIRA-AER as a governing body makes the utmost sense - an entity with a seat on IRB council, Romanian president, membership encompassing about 50 European Unions (including those of the 6N), based in Paris. It remains to be seen if their democratic foundations, used to running semi-pro and amateur tournaments, survive the influx of professional cynicism and politics.

it is the "Third Way" - celtic Unions will be furious at the loss of their control, diluted amongst 50 odd others. PRL will be furious at their plans for world domination being thwarted. Some amongst LNR will be furious, but they're only happy when they're angry, so they'll be happy.

Possible downsides is that AER will become a political horsetrading organization like IRB, and that 6N will be under threat with promotion/relegation. That's a pragmatic objection on my behalf to 6N relegation - morally it's the right thing to do, but pragmatically it fuels most of professional rugby in Europe and any changes should be handled with kid gloves.

[Guest]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation?  Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

Exactly, so long as control remains with the Unions  

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation?  Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

Exactly, so long as control remains with the Unions  

Which Unions? The 50 or so European Unions, or the 6N protectionist Unions?

[Guest]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation?  Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

No, no, no and a thousand times no. I revile PRL for their protectionism within the English game, and sucking all the wealth from it. I revile ERC for their protectionism within the European game and sucking all the wealth from it.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys seem to have finessed both the Unions and PRL (and factions within LNR) although that all remains to be seen. FIRA-AER as a governing body makes the utmost sense - an entity with a seat on IRB council, Romanian president, membership encompassing about 50 European Unions (including those of the 6N), based in Paris. It remains to be seen if their democratic foundations, used to running semi-pro and amateur tournaments, survive the influx of professional cynicism and politics.

it is the "Third Way" - celtic Unions will be furious at the loss of their control, diluted amongst 50 odd others. PRL will be furious at their plans for world domination being thwarted. Some amongst LNR will be furious, but they're only happy when they're angry, so they'll be happy.

Possible downsides is that AER will become a political horsetrading organization like IRB, and that 6N will be under threat with promotion/relegation. That's a pragmatic objection on my behalf to 6N relegation - morally it's the right thing to do, but pragmatically it fuels most of professional rugby in Europe and any changes should be handled with kid gloves.

Although the wealth generated by ERC HEC is then distributed back to the Unions. I do agree with you on handling any transition carefully. Otherwise we could potentially be faced with more schisms between club and union in the future.
All hail the THIRD WAY  

[Guest]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation?  Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

Exactly, so long as control remains with the Unions  

Which Unions? The 50 or so European Unions, or the 6N protectionist Unions?

Unions in the collective sense under the umbrella of IRB. What I'm really getting at is the issue of authority. Not a shared authority between club and union, but all working together under the one authority delegated to unions, delegated to clubs.

[Sin é]

This is the structure of UEFA:

The Union of European Football Associations is the administrative body for association football in Europe and, partially, Asia. It is one of six continental confederations of world football's governing body FIFA. UEFA consists of fifty-four national associations members.

UEFA represents the national football associations of Europe, runs nation and club competitions including the UEFA European Championship, UEFA Champions League, UEFA Europa League, and UEFA Super Cup, and controls the prize money, regulations and media rights to those competitions.

A structure like that would just suit the Unions down to the ground.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Taken from another forum. Seems that IRB are giving up on ERC
http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/h-cup-vers-evolution-fira-remplacer-erc-satisfaire-anglais-francais-toujours-desaccord-0312131138.php
Only taking their word as my French is useless

Lapasset commented recently that IRB were watching over these proposed changes, and also that IRB may be in favour of them. He concluded with re-enforcing IRBs stance of no Club control.
When ERC issued its latest statement it seems that they have allowed for change of name of ERC. Exactly what that means I don't know, but I would doubt very much it has anything to do with a weakening of the Unions position.
Whatever shape the new competition, I hope it's something that the AP teams can sign up to.

Does anyone really care about the ERC as an organisation?  Let's replace it with something with the same governance structure, call it s/thing so the PRL ninnies can put their dummies back in, and we can get on with the Heino

Exactly, so long as control remains with the Unions  

Which Unions? The 50 or so European Unions, or the 6N protectionist Unions?

Unions in the collective sense under the umbrella of IRB. What I'm really getting at is the issue of authority. Not a shared authority between club and union, but all working together under the one authority delegated to unions, delegated to clubs.

That'll do for me - still plenty of work to do to acheive it, plenty of egos (both of the blazer and suit mentality) to overcome,

[quinsforever]

This is the structure of UEFA:

The Union of European Football Associations is the administrative body for association football in Europe and, partially, Asia. It is one of six continental confederations of world football's governing body FIFA. UEFA consists of fifty-four national associations members.

UEFA represents the national football associations of Europe, runs nation and club competitions including the UEFA European Championship, UEFA Champions League, UEFA Europa League, and UEFA Super Cup, and controls the prize money, regulations and media rights to those competitions.

A structure like that would just suit the Unions down to the ground.

really. not worried about enfranchising the georgian, russian, spanish, ukranian, romanian, etc, etc unions?

i guarantee you, a proper, all-encompassing structure, is going to favour the the big leagues and the very small leagues, and do few favours for the unions of the celtic nations. but then an all-encompassing structure is clearly not what is wanted by the majority of the 6N unions. what they want is to preserve their hegemony of course.

[Guest]

This is the structure of UEFA:

The Union of European Football Associations is the administrative body for association football in Europe and, partially, Asia. It is one of six continental confederations of world football's governing body FIFA. UEFA consists of fifty-four national associations members.

UEFA represents the national football associations of Europe, runs nation and club competitions including the UEFA European Championship, UEFA Champions League, UEFA Europa League, and UEFA Super Cup, and controls the prize money, regulations and media rights to those competitions.

A structure like that would just suit the Unions down to the ground.

really. not worried about enfranchising the georgian, russian, spanish, ukranian, romanian, etc, etc unions?

i guarantee you, a proper, all-encompassing structure, is going to favour the the big leagues and the very small leagues, and do few favours for the unions of the celtic nations. but then an all-encompassing structure is clearly not what is wanted by the majority of the 6N unions. what they want is to preserve their hegemony of course.

At this point I don't think there is any need to worry as we don't know the details of any changes, but most would trust that any changes sanctioned by IRB would be in the interest of Unions, and Rugby Union as a whole.
You seem to have an axe to grind with the Celtic Unions? Are you forgetting that the English, French and Italian Unions are also members of ERC?
By preserving the hegemony I take you to mean Union control over clubs? That is a line that can't be crossed. IRB authority delegated to Unions who in turn delegate to clubs, or the umbrella groups such as PRL acting on behalf of clubs. That is also something that Lapasset touched on in his most recent comment concerning European competition. No club control of European competition.
Rather than the Unions being weakened by the latest moves, I see them strengthening their hold on Rugby Union.
I don't envisage that we will see a dramatic movement of Georgians, Russians, Spanish, etc, entering into European competition. How many could afford to do so, and how many would be competitive enough? What I do see happening is more of a concerted effort to grow the game within these Unions.

[Sin é]

So who is going to be Rugby Michel Platini?

And the biggie - who will Blatter?

Not sure you have thought this through Quinners, but most the clubs in Europe are run by Unions and so will have influence at both club and Union level. Or maybe the RFU will continue to be the PRL b**ch.

[Sin é]

Good point about the Italians & the Scots in particular - they sure are going to love the PRL/LNR boys after what they have said about them and what they tried to do to them !

Remember to be nice on the way up, because you might meet these people again on the way down!

[quinsforever]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

[quinsforever]

munchkin, by hegemony i mean preserving the 6N NH world order and keeping everyone else out. nothing to do with unions. all to do with fear and greed.

[HammerofThunor]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

As someone who seems to be in 'discussion' with mostly Irish posters on this I have to take umbrage with this.

 

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

As someone who seems to be in 'discussion' with mostly Irish posters on this I have to take umbrage with this.

 

Me too, Thunor - there doesn't appear to be a category for Scots-born south-westian nutters?!

[geoff998rugby]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

Oh dear we are reduced to flinging insults around now - the last vestige of a person bereft of a coherent argument.

Any nationality has it share of sensible and deluded individuals and that is reflected here.
Some English posters make excellent point, some haven't a clue
Some Irish posters make excellent points, some haven't a clue

Cheap insults add nothing to the debate.
You also should not jump to conclusions as to what people are either
as ASBO points out we do not all fall into neat silos, that is true of me also - I have duel nationality and in both cases it has nothing to do with the fact I live in Northern Ireland. Work that one out.

I'm in a good mood so I'll put it down to the callowness of youth- with age comes wisdom ny son

[Sin é]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

The PRL threatened them with financial ruin if they didn't join the McGaff Cup. They also said some nasty stuff about Scottish & Italian teams about how they didn't deserve to play in the Heineken Cup. Even the usually nice Mr O'Shea was banging on about that one.

[HammerofThunor]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

Oh dear we are reduced to flinging insults around now - the last vestige of a person bereft of a coherent argument.

Any nationality has it share of sensible and deluded individuals and that is reflected here.
Some English posters make excellent point, some haven't a clue
Some Irish posters make excellent points, some haven't a clue

Cheap insults add nothing to the debate.
You also should not jump to conclusions as to what people are either
as ASBO points out we do not all fall into neat silos, that is true of me also - I have duel nationality and in both cases it has nothing to do with the fact I live in Northern Ireland. Work that one out.

I'm in a good mood so I'll put it down to the callowness of youth- with age comes wisdom ny son

You were born in Argentina to Italian parents? You are Sergio Parrise!

[geoff998rugby]

Twice his age and half as good a player (ok that bits an exaggeration)

My two nations are the slightly less sunny climates of Ireland and UK.

[Guest]

munchkin, by hegemony i mean preserving the 6N NH world order and keeping everyone else out. nothing to do with unions. all to do with fear and greed.

Fear and greed? What other European Union could enter 6N, and seriously challenge any of the 6? You would need to explain how greed comes into it, but what other European Union could afford to enter 6Ns? Say 6Ns becomes 8 Nations? What would be the knock-on effect to clubs who already complain about the number of internationals as it is? Maybe a 2 tier competition, but that wouldn't be without problems either.
Which Unions have asked for entry, but have been denied, and why?

[HammerofThunor]

munchkin, by hegemony i mean preserving the 6N NH world order and keeping everyone else out. nothing to do with unions. all to do with fear and greed.

Fear and greed? What other European Union could enter 6N, and seriously challenge any of the 6? You would need to explain how greed comes into it, but what other European Union could afford to enter 6Ns? Say 6Ns becomes 8 Nations? What would be the knock-on effect to clubs who already complain about the number of internationals as it is? Maybe a 2 tier competition, but that wouldn't be without problems either.
Which Unions have asked for entry, but have been denied, and why?

Could afford to enter the 6 Nations? Would we just split the money with them? Are you suggesting the 6 Nations isn't a massive money-maker? How long did it take France to win anything? How long did it take Italy to beat anyone other than Scotland and Wales? It's more about exposure and opening the system.

I think the 'reasonable' proposal would be to have the 6 Nations aligned with the European Nations Cup, or whatever it is called. Moved to a two season competition and the bottom of the 6 nations (after two years) is switched for the top of the tier below.

[Sin é]

France & Italy were not in and out of the competition every year, which is what you are proposing. With that, it has taken Italy 10+ years to be anyway consistently competitive. Its even more difficult now as the 6Ns countries all have professional leagues, whereas you are proposing that mainly amateurs start playing professionals.

The 6Ns Unions/IRB can be more helpful by sending Under age touring teams to developing countries, not setting them up for an annual mauling in the 6Ns.

[Irish Londoner]

Thunor, good idea in principle however the gulf between even the worst 6Ns team and the best of the rest would be so large that it would be back to the early days of Italy.
The relegation issue would also be problematic, all the 6Ns unions rely on the income from these games and they'd be very reluctant to lose the funding from them, especially if it meant the following season a series of games V Holland, Spain, Romainia, etc. that would be probably fairly one sided and wouldn't pull in the punters.
Can you imagine a 6Ns next year without the French who came bottom this time around with one of the minor nations instead?
In an ideal world what might be good is that once every four years between world cups instead of a summer tour there was a rugby equivalent of the European championship involving the 6Ns and the rest of the European teams, maybe a Lions year when the GB & I sides were a little bit weaker?

[mystiroakey]

Irish- you mean just give the european cup to the french ever 4 years(due to the lions)!!

NO


we do need a European cup and we should have it every 2 years, the 6 nations should also be every 2 years, with relegation and promotion from the second tierd cup.

Lets stop with the bs excuses and just include others for once

[quinsforever]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

Oh dear we are reduced to flinging insults around now - the last vestige of a person bereft of a coherent argument.

Any nationality has it share of sensible and deluded individuals and that is reflected here.
Some English posters make excellent point, some haven't a clue
Some Irish posters make excellent points, some haven't a clue

Cheap insults add nothing to the debate.
You also should not jump to conclusions as to what people are either
as ASBO points out we do not all fall into neat silos, that is true of me also - I have duel nationality and in both cases it has nothing to do with the fact I live in Northern Ireland. Work that one out.

I'm in a good mood so I'll put it down to the callowness of youth- with age comes wisdom ny son

was exasperation not desperation.

i try to ignore this thread at the moment at it's the same old (as in, out of date) quotes from people who aren't privvy to information, made months or years ago, as evidence of whatever corner they are fighting. absolute rubbish for the most part. a vibrant mix of outright lies, selective misstatements of fact, selective misquoting, uninformed conjecture, etc, etc.

the more i hear the same peddled nonsense, the more i want english clubs out of the HC for the 2014-15 season. focus on the AP, player health, and RWC 2015, and let everyone else get on with the HC without the english clubs and see how that all pans out.

and by the way, although wisdom comes with age, tolerance and patience don't. particularly of fools, or actual callow youths.

[HammerofThunor]

France & Italy were not in and out of the competition every year, which is what you are proposing. With that, it has taken Italy 10+ years to be anyway consistently competitive. Its even more difficult now as the 6Ns countries all have professional leagues, whereas you are proposing that mainly amateurs start playing professionals.

The 6Ns Unions/IRB can be more helpful by sending Under age touring teams to developing countries, not setting them up for an annual mauling in the 6Ns.

Russia has a professional league. Georgia have a professional league. Since a lot of Georgians also play professionally in France (along with a lot of other Europeans) I think most of the players would be professional.

There will always be a gap between the 6 Nations and other European sides. One of the main reasons is the fact they never play against 'better' opposition. I think that 10 games against the 'best sides in Europe' (5 at home) minimum over two years would be helpful, both on and off the pitch.

It requires the current 6 nation sides to take a hit. Are they willing to?

[quinsforever]

Thunor, good idea in principle however the gulf between even the worst 6Ns team and the best of the rest would be so large that it would be back to the early days of Italy.
The relegation issue would also be problematic, all the 6Ns unions rely on the income from these games and they'd be very reluctant to lose the funding from them, especially if it meant the following season a series of games V Holland, Spain, Romainia, etc. that would be probably fairly one sided and wouldn't pull in the punters.
Can you imagine a 6Ns next year without the French who came bottom this time around with one of the minor nations instead?
In an ideal world what might be good is that once every four years between world cups instead of a summer tour there was a rugby equivalent of the European championship involving the 6Ns and the rest of the European teams, maybe a Lions year when the GB & I sides were a little bit weaker?

this is precisely an example of the problem. while the challenges are all couched in language to do with relegation, the wide gulf in quality, etc, the reality is that the unions are hooked on THE MONEY that comes from 6N, which in turn enables them to stay far ahead of non-6N NH rugby nations. And HC is a significant component of that too.

fear and greed.

[HammerofThunor]

Thunor, good idea in principle however the gulf between even the worst 6Ns team and the best of the rest would be so large that it would be back to the early days of Italy.
The relegation issue would also be problematic, all the 6Ns unions rely on the income from these games and they'd be very reluctant to lose the funding from them, especially if it meant the following season a series of games V Holland, Spain, Romainia, etc. that would be probably fairly one sided and wouldn't pull in the punters.
Can you imagine a 6Ns next year without the French who came bottom this time around with one of the minor nations instead?
In an ideal world what might be good is that once every four years between world cups instead of a summer tour there was a rugby equivalent of the European championship involving the 6Ns and the rest of the European teams, maybe a Lions year when the GB & I sides were a little bit weaker?

I can. And it would be awesome.

Regarding the 4 year European Cup thing, so the SH sides doesn't get any money for their home games? You'd need an equivalent in the SH/rest of the World. Easier if we get rid of Lions.

[HammerofThunor]

Oh and I would at least start out with a playoff for relegation from the 6 Nations. So if there is a massive gulf there won't be a change. But if the promoted team win the playoff (home and away ties) then they've shown the gulf isn't that big and should be promoted.

The key thing is possibility. Currently it's a closed shop open to invitation only. The possibility should be there that if a team shows they're good enough they get there by right. It may take 10, 20 years of losing the playoffs but at least they have the knowledge that if they develope their game they will make it.

[quinsforever]

comedy - PRL haven't said anything rude about SRU and FIR. As opposed to the rabo league which gives zippo zilch money to either...this entire HC debate is irish deluded posters vs sensible people. the beneficiaries vs everyone else.

The PRL threatened them with financial ruin if they didn't join the McGaff Cup. They also said some nasty stuff about Scottish & Italian teams about how they didn't deserve to play in the Heineken Cup. Even the usually nice Mr O'Shea was banging on about that one.

complete nonsense. PRL people highlighted the financial impact of no european club rugby at all for several unions, a fact incontrovertibly confirmed by people within all of those unions over the last few months.

proposing 7 qualifying spaces from rabo is saying nothing about the quality of scots or italian sides. that is your implication, and quite frankly an arrogant and unappealing one.

[geoff998rugby]

Provided there is a play off I would have no issue.

Of course that does mean a team like Georgia or Rumania could catch say Wales or Ireland on an off day and that team would not be in the 6N the following year.

If it was France or England would not go down not well with tournament sponsors or TV broadcasters. Might result in reduced income.

For record the 6N wooden spooners have been:

Italy 8
Scotland 3
France 1
Wales 1

[mystiroakey]

with the threat of a relegation , you wont see certain teams dropping out. It will make the tourny very important.

To counter negative rugby I think a scoring system will be needed over straight wins,draw points.

The way we do things in the RWC pools for example.

[Sponsored content]