New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

The English clubs looking to pull out of the HC is a bit like crystal palace refusing to play in the Premiership! Northampton schooled by Leinster embarrassing for the AP

BlueMuff wrote:The English clubs looking to pull out of the HC is a bit like crystal palace refusing to play in the Premiership! Northampton schooled by Leinster embarrassing for the AP

I know. Everyone wins with the current situation. The English can pretend they're any good because they never play anyone else. Everyone else carries on playing teams that will actually challenge them. Win, win, win.

Ah here now Quins did well against that Racing shower, lets not let a few bad apples tarnish the whole flock.

Cue the "its not fair Leinster get to field an all international side" agrument. (15 irish players in the starting 15 btw)

Think Cardiff over palce muff.

Palace schooled them today!!

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:Quinns, any link to any chance of a link to Lapassat's request to FIRA-AER please? I've asked you a few times now for them.

When I do a google search all I get is
FIRA-AER vote Bernard Lapasset as IRB Chairman

Then there is this Six Nations Accord with FIRA-AER. Only one dissenting Nation. Guess who?

Six Nations protocol agreement: France the only dissenting voice
Since January 2011 and following the Lisbon Treaty, the 6 Nations have been keen to participate in European institutions. A document implicating FIRA-AER, the IRB and the 6 Nations was drafted to help increase cooperation with the common aim of developing rugby and collaborating on field studies.

This unbiased document deals with all the relationship difficulties of the past and should prove beneficial to all parties involved. It does not involve signing with the Commercial Company but rather with the Chairmen of the Six Nations. It will be implemented on a trial basis for one year. The FIRA-AER Executive Committee was favourable to the initiative. Pierre Camou, however, expressed his discontent with the agreement stating that "In the name of France and of Liberty, in the name of 78 years of Europe and FIRA, I shall not oppose it; however I shall not sign it"
When put to a vote the protocol was accepted by all nations, with the exception of France.

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/547/olzo.jpg/

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/132/6r9p.jpg/

i already translated this several pages ago. let me know how you get on with google translate  

It wasn't the translation I was looking for - I wanted to find out who/where Lapassat was speaking to. As you can see that Lapassat swinging the vote for him for the IRB Chairmanship sort of gives a different picture (i.e., I wouldn't be hanging your hat on that one being a runner, particularly when none of the Six Nations countries are likely to support it).

Interesting enough, it seems that the 6 Nations countries have agreed to give the Fira-Aer countries a game in the AIs (well Ireland have anyway - think they are playing Georgia next AI instead of a SH team).

I've got tickets to the ice hockey in a couple of weeks, need to find a new sport if this all goes south.

It's very bittersweet, because a great win in front of a great crowd tonight- and instead of feeling happy, I feel very angry at the selfish gits who are trying to take this away from us.

The Irish, Scots and Italians have as much right to be a major part of this as anyone.

Notch wrote:I've got tickets to the ice hockey in a couple of weeks, need to find a new sport if this all goes south.

It's very bittersweet, because a great win in front of a great crowd tonight- and instead of feeling happy, I feel very angry at the selfish gits who are trying to take this away from us.

The Irish, Scots and Italians have as much right to be a major part of this as anyone.

Here here!  Three Irish Provinces should be the absolute written-in-stone demand added by the IRFU for their participation in any future European contest down the line in three or four years time.
The Welsh, Scottish and Italians should force their wishes too... but that's their territory and for them to fight for now and in the future.  We're individual nations - just like France and England are nations.  We're nations - not leagues, not clubs, not boardroom chief executives - nations.

Let's see who would say that without Irish sides, the HEC (or its future equivalent) would be "devalued" - as we're already hearing now about the English.  Because over the last seven or so years, we've certainly given the evidence that it would be.

So when this debate comes around again - let it be seen that our positions and our demands have gone up in the interval rather than down... just like others try to do when the negotiations hit the fan.  Let's us start demanding our rightful place for a change instead of being offered conditional invites to someone else's show.

Notch wrote:I've got tickets to the ice hockey in a couple of weeks, need to find a new sport if this all goes south.

It's very bittersweet, because a great win in front of a great crowd tonight- and instead of feeling happy, I feel very angry at the selfish gits who are trying to take this away from us.

The Irish, Scots and Italians have as much right to be a major part of this as anyone.

what kind of a rugby fan would try to find another sport to watch? is winning HC and HC matches all you care about? if you were welsh would you support a welsh region even though they havent come close to HC silverware?

unfotunately for you ice hockey is a professional sport not controlled by unions so you might want to look for an alternative plan B

Unions are professional bodies.... running very professional sport in some countries. So no - Plan A will suffice.

name 1 very professional sport run by unions

Rugby in Ireland.

and we're all happy with it...and we don't need private consortium owners to be happy with it... and we don't need any Joe Bloggs who came up from the tough side of town with a best selling hard-luck story owning our 'clubs' to be happy with them and get enjoyment out of them.

You said over on another thread - or was it this one - you said that in the US, sport is all about money.

Well, so be it.  That seems to be your understanding of perfection.  I prefer to watch something like happened tonight...sport, on a field, passionate, sharp, beautiful.  I'm sure every player at Northampton and across the English Premiership feels the same.

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in Ireland.

no, i said 1 professional sport. not adding a country qualifier.

SecretFly wrote:and we're all happy with it...and we don't need private consortium owners to be happy with it... and we don't need any Joe Bloggs who came up from the tough side of town with a best selling hard-luck story owning our 'clubs' to be happy with them and get enjoyment out of them.

You said over on another thread - or was it this one - you said that in the US, sport is all about money.

Well, so be it.  That seems to be your understanding of perfection.  I prefer to watch something like happened tongiht...sport, on a field, passionate, sharp, beautiful.  I'm sure every player at Northampton and across the English Premiership feels the same.

gimme a break. i described the nfl as the worlds most financially successful sporting league (measured by profit of all participants).

sport at the professional level everywhere is all about money.

paying players. paying the best coaching staff (how many NH coaches are there of NH national teams?). best facilities. best training and recovery methodologies. best academies. attracting the best young players into the sport.

you think these all come from some altruistic generosity?

Yep Fly, I find it amusing that 'the blazers' managing rugby union are somehow meant to be useless, when in fact most are very successful people otherwise. You'd have to pay through the nose for what the likes of Tom Grace brings to the IRFU table for free.

Brett Gosper, the IRB CEO has a very impressive cv.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Gosper

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

New Zealand?

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in Ireland.

no, i said 1 professional sport. not adding a country qualifier.

You're losing the argument all over the place lately, quins....mostly because you know in your heart of hearts that McCafferty's intransigence and gruff inability to understand the word compromise was all wrong. You won't admit it, but you're not happy with it or the outcome for English clubs.

But rugby in Ireland is run by a Union and it is a continually growing Sport in this country... at a professional level. Don't do semantics with me. My patience has run out on apologists for all that has gone wrong in European rugby in the last few months. Rugby last year and the year before was fine...and getting finer all the time. Only one organisation pizzed on that because of the idea of 'sport=more money'... and look what we have now. A rugby world at war with itself.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

New Zealand?

so how is the game of New Zealand played?

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:and we're all happy with it...and we don't need private consortium owners to be happy with it... and we don't need any Joe Bloggs who came up from the tough side of town with a best selling hard-luck story owning our 'clubs' to be happy with them and get enjoyment out of them.

You said over on another thread - or was it this one - you said that in the US, sport is all about money.

Well, so be it.  That seems to be your understanding of perfection.  I prefer to watch something like happened tongiht...sport, on a field, passionate, sharp, beautiful.  I'm sure every player at Northampton and across the English Premiership feels the same.

gimme a break. i described the nfl as the worlds most financially successful sporting league (measured by profit of all participants).

sport at the professional level everywhere is all about money.

paying players. paying the best coaching staff (how many NH coaches are there of NH national teams?). best facilities. best training and recovery methodologies. best academies. attracting the best young players into the sport.

you think these all come from some altruistic generosity?

You think only money when you think of rugby if you so wish. Good luck with that specialty. You'll be lonely though.

RFU chief executive in last-ditch effort to save European competition
• Ian Ritchie seeking urgent talks with other unions
• Fears loss of Heineken Cup could lead to financial meltdown
Paul Rees
The Observer, Saturday 7 December 2013 22.00 GMT

Heineken Cup
The future of the main European club competition is in the balance. Photograph: Stu Forster/Getty Images

Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the Rugby Football Union, is making another push to salvage a six-country European Cup for next season. He fears that some unions will go into financial meltdown if the English clubs find a permanent way of occupying the nine weekends taken up by the Heineken Cup.

Premiership Rugby will not be part of European Rugby Cup (ERC) next season and is looking at other ways to fill the vacant weekends. One possibility is an Anglo-Welsh league, with Wales's four regions ready to fight their union in court for the right to play in tournaments of their choice.

An Anglo-Welsh league would hit the Irish, Scottish and Italian unions hard, and Ritchie, who will outline his plans at a media briefing on Tuesday, has been in contact with them, calling for renewed talks on Europe as a matter of urgency.

The Irish provinces, like the Welsh regions, are already struggling to hold on to players, with John Afoa following his fellow prop Tom Court into the Premiership next summer. In Wales, Cardiff Blues fear Leigh Halfpenny and Sam Warburton will sign for Toulon and Northampton respectively, despite wanting to remain at the Arms Park, because the region has only been able to make them conditional offers, uncertain what the budget will be next season.

The regions, whose £3.5m salary cap is the lowest of the Heineken Cup countries, pledged their support for the Rugby Champions Cup, only for the Welsh Rugby Union to commit them to playing in the Heineken Cup next season for virtually the same money – and it is pressing them to sign a new participation agreement that would peg their income until 2018, with the union considering setting up alternative sides if the 31 December deadline is not met.

Ritchie fears a vacuum being created, with the French clubs saying they will decide in February whether to play in next season's Heineken Cup. Premiership Rugby's chief executive, Mark McCafferty, admits that his clubs, who have given themselves a month to make alternative arrangements, could opt for a competition that would make future participation in Europe impossible because of fixture congestion.

"The regions losing their star players is a huge concern for Welsh rugby, but I find the apathy within the game there to do anything about it shocking," said Nigel Davies, Gloucester's director of rugby, who joined last year from the Scarlets. "An Anglo-Welsh league would present commercial opportunities, but it would cause a host of problems in the Pro 12."

While the RFU does not receive any money from the Heineken Cup, it provides essential income for the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian unions. They have accused Ritchie of putting the interests and ambitions of the English clubs first, but he will again suggest that a European model based on overall control by unions, with clubs running the commercial side, is the way forward.

Time is running out to get something in place involving the English clubs next season and attitudes are hardening, with Premiership figures saying they have lost the will to compromise. Ritchie will argue that the health of European rugby is at stake and that after pride will come a heavy fall if the commercial value of the Six Nations suffers as a consequence.

Ritchie thought he had achieved a European model acceptable to unions and clubs, who have been divided on the issue of governance, but it crashed when the four RaboDirect Pro 12 countries and the French federation last month agreed to continue the Heineken Cup next season without the English.

English and French clubs served notice last year that they would be pulling out of the Heineken Cup at the end of the season. They felt ERC was weighted too heavily in favour of the unions and was falling short of its maximum commercial potential.

But the French abandoned the idea of setting up an alternative tournament, the Rugby Champions Cup, at the end of last month under the threat of legal action from their union. They proposed a transition year next season, with ERC continuing to run the Heineken Cup, and, along with the FFR, are proposing a shakeup in the way the game in Europe is run with a governing body set up in Geneva to oversee tournaments.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/07/rfu-chief-executive-european-competition?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in Ireland.

no, i said 1 professional sport. not adding a country qualifier.

You're losing the argument all over the place lately, quins....mostly because you know in your heart of hearts that McCafferty's intransigence and gruff inability to understand the word compromise was all wrong.  You won't admit it, but you're not happy with it or the outcome for English clubs.

But rugby in Ireland is run by a Union and it is a continually growing Sport in this country... at a professional level.  Don't do semantics with me.  My patience has run out on apologists for all that has gone wrong in European rugby in the last few months.  Rugby last year and the year before was fine...and getting finer all the time.  Only one organisation pizzed on that because of the idea of 'sport=more money'... and look what we have now.  A rugby world at war with itself.

i repeat, name 1 successful professional sport run by unions.

not (as you answered) name me a country that does well at club level, but not international level, on the back of the value brought to the game by privately owned clubs.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:and we're all happy with it...and we don't need private consortium owners to be happy with it... and we don't need any Joe Bloggs who came up from the tough side of town with a best selling hard-luck story owning our 'clubs' to be happy with them and get enjoyment out of them.

You said over on another thread - or was it this one - you said that in the US, sport is all about money.

Well, so be it.  That seems to be your understanding of perfection.  I prefer to watch something like happened tongiht...sport, on a field, passionate, sharp, beautiful.  I'm sure every player at Northampton and across the English Premiership feels the same.

gimme a break. i described the nfl as the worlds most financially successful sporting league (measured by profit of all participants).

sport at the professional level everywhere is all about money.

paying players. paying the best coaching staff (how many NH coaches are there of NH national teams?). best facilities. best training and recovery methodologies. best academies. attracting the best young players into the sport.

you think these all come from some altruistic generosity?

You think only money when you think of rugby if you so wish.  Good luck with that specialty.  You'll be lonely though.

stop dodging. we are talking about the professional club game. nothing more nothing less

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

New Zealand?

so how is the game of New Zealand played?

England pay them 1.5M to play them?

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

New Zealand?

so how is the game of New Zealand played?

England pay them 1.5M to play them?

is New Zealand a sport?

are you drunk?

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

New Zealand?

so how is the game of New Zealand played?

England pay them 1.5M to play them?

is New Zealand a sport?

are you drunk?

Not too sure what you are on about, but I'll try again

Rugby Union in New Zealand is well run by the their Rugby Union. Their provinces/franchises generally do very well in Super Rugby and their National team is No. 1 in the world.

name 1 very professional sport run by unions

i repeated it as you clearly ignored the qn or couldnt think of a sport that count

rugby union in timbukfreakintoo is not a sport. rugby is a sport. and it is neither very professional, nor run by unions. as the top14 EUR100m per annum deal illustrates.

Are you sure about NZ as it wasn't too long ago that they were trying to sell part of their SR teams.
Also take out the money SA is pumping into SR & how successful would NZ be?

Sin é wrote:RFU chief executive in last-ditch effort to save European competition
• Ian Ritchie seeking urgent talks with other unions
• Fears loss of Heineken Cup could lead to financial meltdown
Paul Rees
The Observer, Saturday 7 December 2013 22.00 GMT

Heineken Cup
The future of the main European club competition is in the balance. Photograph: Stu Forster/Getty Images

Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the Rugby Football Union, is making another push to salvage a six-country European Cup for next season. He fears that some unions will go into financial meltdown if the English clubs find a permanent way of occupying the nine weekends taken up by the Heineken Cup.

Premiership Rugby will not be part of European Rugby Cup (ERC) next season and is looking at other ways to fill the vacant weekends. One possibility is an Anglo-Welsh league, with Wales's four regions ready to fight their union in court for the right to play in tournaments of their choice.

An Anglo-Welsh league would hit the Irish, Scottish and Italian unions hard, and Ritchie, who will outline his plans at a media briefing on Tuesday, has been in contact with them, calling for renewed talks on Europe as a matter of urgency.

The Irish provinces, like the Welsh regions, are already struggling to hold on to players, with John Afoa following his fellow prop Tom Court into the Premiership next summer. In Wales, Cardiff Blues fear Leigh Halfpenny and Sam Warburton will sign for Toulon and Northampton respectively, despite wanting to remain at the Arms Park, because the region has only been able to make them conditional offers, uncertain what the budget will be next season.

The regions, whose £3.5m salary cap is the lowest of the Heineken Cup countries, pledged their support for the Rugby Champions Cup, only for the Welsh Rugby Union to commit them to playing in the Heineken Cup next season for virtually the same money – and it is pressing them to sign a new participation agreement that would peg their income until 2018, with the union considering setting up alternative sides if the 31 December deadline is not met.

Ritchie fears a vacuum being created, with the French clubs saying they will decide in February whether to play in next season's Heineken Cup. Premiership Rugby's chief executive, Mark McCafferty, admits that his clubs, who have given themselves a month to make alternative arrangements, could opt for a competition that would make future participation in Europe impossible because of fixture congestion.

"The regions losing their star players is a huge concern for Welsh rugby, but I find the apathy within the game there to do anything about it shocking," said Nigel Davies, Gloucester's director of rugby, who joined last year from the Scarlets. "An Anglo-Welsh league would present commercial opportunities, but it would cause a host of problems in the Pro 12."

While the RFU does not receive any money from the Heineken Cup, it provides essential income for the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian unions. They have accused Ritchie of putting the interests and ambitions of the English clubs first, but he will again suggest that a European model based on overall control by unions, with clubs running the commercial side, is the way forward.

Time is running out to get something in place involving the English clubs next season and attitudes are hardening, with Premiership figures saying they have lost the will to compromise. Ritchie will argue that the health of European rugby is at stake and that after pride will come a heavy fall if the commercial value of the Six Nations suffers as a consequence.

Ritchie thought he had achieved a European model acceptable to unions and clubs, who have been divided on the issue of governance, but it crashed when the four RaboDirect Pro 12 countries and the French federation last month agreed to continue the Heineken Cup next season without the English.

English and French clubs served notice last year that they would be pulling out of the Heineken Cup at the end of the season. They felt ERC was weighted too heavily in favour of the unions and was falling short of its maximum commercial potential.

But the French abandoned the idea of setting up an alternative tournament, the Rugby Champions Cup, at the end of last month under the threat of legal action from their union. They proposed a transition year next season, with ERC continuing to run the Heineken Cup, and, along with the FFR, are proposing a shakeup in the way the game in Europe is run with a governing body set up in Geneva to oversee tournaments.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/07/rfu-chief-executive-european-competition?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

That's just more of the same tried, and failed, threats of financial ruin, and oblivion, spouted by McCafferty, and co., and regurgitated, with that little extra. I wouldn't be surprised if they are behind this latest realise, using their favourite mouthpiece - Rees. Richie in their pocket?

Hope the Unions tell him to take a leap.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:and we're all happy with it...and we don't need private consortium owners to be happy with it... and we don't need any Joe Bloggs who came up from the tough side of town with a best selling hard-luck story owning our 'clubs' to be happy with them and get enjoyment out of them.

You said over on another thread - or was it this one - you said that in the US, sport is all about money.

Well, so be it.  That seems to be your understanding of perfection.  I prefer to watch something like happened tongiht...sport, on a field, passionate, sharp, beautiful.  I'm sure every player at Northampton and across the English Premiership feels the same.

gimme a break. i described the nfl as the worlds most financially successful sporting league (measured by profit of all participants).

sport at the professional level everywhere is all about money.

paying players. paying the best coaching staff (how many NH coaches are there of NH national teams?). best facilities. best training and recovery methodologies. best academies. attracting the best young players into the sport.

you think these all come from some altruistic generosity?

You think only money when you think of rugby if you so wish.  Good luck with that specialty.  You'll be lonely though.

stop dodging. we are talking about the professional club game. nothing more nothing less

You're dodging. I've named the sport - rugby...and I've named the union - IRFU. Now you quit dodging and tell me why rugby isn't a sport and why IRFU isn't a Union?

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

i repeated it as you clearly ignored the qn or couldnt think of a sport that count

rugby union in timbukfreakintoo is not a sport. rugby is a sport. and it is neither very professional, nor run by unions. as the top14 EUR100m per annum deal illustrates.

Well, I read that the French club owners are not a bit happy about this deal. Even they think that selling to a broadcaster who doesn't have a lot of subscribers might not be the best thing thing to do in the long run.

name 1 very professional sport run by unions

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

i repeated it as you clearly ignored the qn or couldnt think of a sport that count

rugby union in timbukfreakintoo is not a sport. rugby is a sport. and it is neither very professional, nor run by unions. as the top14 EUR100m per annum deal illustrates.

So Top14 100M per annum illustrates that ...what?...Top 14 is a professional sport?  No, it's a Professional league.  The sport is rugby....as run successfully by a Union that owns four teams and has three HEC winners.... who all get paid..coaches, players... and shop assistants

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

i repeated it as you clearly ignored the qn or couldnt think of a sport that count

rugby union in timbukfreakintoo is not a sport. rugby is a sport. and it is neither very professional, nor run by unions. as the top14 EUR100m per annum deal illustrates.

Well, I read that the French club owners are not a bit happy about this deal. Even they think that selling to a broadcaster who doesn't have a lot of subscribers might not be the best thing thing to do in the long run.

name 1 very professional sport run by unions

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:name 1 very professional sport run by unions

i repeated it as you clearly ignored the qn or couldnt think of a sport that count

rugby union in timbukfreakintoo is not a sport. rugby is a sport. and it is neither very professional, nor run by unions. as the top14 EUR100m per annum deal illustrates.

So Top14 100M per annum illustrates that ...what?...Top 14 is a professional sport?  No, it's a Professional league.  The sport is rugby....as run successfully by a Union that owns four teams and has three HEC winners.... who all get paid..coaches, players... and shop assistants

name 1 very professional sport run by unions

Name the sport that Top14 teams play...

broadlandboy wrote:Are you sure about NZ as it wasn't too long ago that they were trying to sell part of their SR teams.
Also take out the money SA is pumping into SR & how successful would NZ be?

They haven't sold any of their franchises, and when they see the carry on in the NH, they probably won't now.

The NZ Union could probably make a heck of a lot more money be getting 1.5M a game from the likes of England and France to play them.

I also think that it is highly likely the South Africans know that the reason they are so good at rugby is because they are regularly playing the Kiwis.

they play professional rugby and they run their own league. power granted to them by the FFR.

likewise for PRL and RFU.

the in other words, the very successful parts of club rugby union are run by...professional associations of private clubs. not unions.

quinsforever wrote:they play professional rugby and they run their own league. power granted to them by the FFR.

likewise for PRL and RFU.

the in other words, the very successful parts of club rugby union are run by...professional associations of private clubs. not unions.

But the PRL or LNR are not run well. Most the clubs are in debt. That is not a good way to run a business.

actually sin e the opposite. not having any debt at all is not a good way to run a business. inefficient use of capital. basic stuff.

quinsforever wrote:they play professional rugby and they run their own league. power granted to them by the FFR.

likewise for PRL and RFU.

the in other words, the very successful parts of club rugby union are run by...professional associations of private clubs. not unions.

I'd reckon that by any stretch of the imagination, a country of some 4 million having only four teams and winning the HEC six times (equal to the number of times the English Premiership won it and equal to the number of times the French League has won it) - four times in the last six years alone; three times runner-up position, only one less in that category than the English.  I'd say that's a SPORT of Professional rugby, run successfully at club level by a Union.

Talking around that truth won't change the truth, quins.  

You asked for one example - the example still holds.  I don't care how successful Top14 is.  Top14 play the sport of rugby - they don't run rugby, they play it.  IRFU also engage in the sport of rugby at club level and they are as successful at it as the English - winning competitions and making money at club level.
I understand you'll never want to admit that but don't try the fancy slipping and sliding with me.  Like I said, I'm not in the mood to be forgiving on this topic anymore.

quinsforever wrote:actually sin e the opposite. not having any debt at all is not a good way to run a business. inefficient use of capital. basic stuff.

???? You keep forgetting McCafferty. And you keep disagreeing with him tonight too.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:actually sin e the opposite. not having any debt at all is not a good way to run a business. inefficient use of capital. basic stuff.

????  You keep forgetting McCafferty.  And you keep disagreeing with him tonight too.

are you really questioning me on this? that having no debt is a good way to run a business? basic, basic stuff sin e.

and you are the one who keeps wriggling. or are declining to read my qn. i didnt say "pick 1 union" i said a very successful sport run by unions. unions. as in they run it all.

because that very successful pro sport doesnt exist that is run by unions. its a contradiction in terms.

quinsforever wrote:

and you are the one who keeps wriggling. or are declining to read my qn. i didnt say "pick 1 union" i said a very successful sport run by unions. unions. as in they run it all.

because that very successful pro sport doesnt exist that is run by unions. its a contradiction in terms.

wriggling.  No contradiction in terms.  A contradiction in Your terms but no contradiction in the terms of logic.  

PRL are a Union in practical terms (calling the admin shots and amassing and radiating the League monies), if you want to get into the semantics battle.  LNR are a Union too.  
Indeed, Pro12 is more a Unionless avenue of rugby than either AP or Top14 is, as there truly are individual teams in it with their own laws and structures that are not answerable to any higher authority than the one that exists in their own Nation.  That is to say, IRFU can't fine Ospreys for letting one of their foreign players play international outside an International window  Not IRFUs business and yet IRFU teams play in the same League as Ospreys.

So yeah, the successful club Leagues you mention are controlled by Unions.... it's just you can't see them because they disguise themselves as a group of independent and autonomous clubs, answerable to knowbody but themselves- which is a lie.

Lads why are ye wasting your time with quins? He clearly has fully bought into a capitalism at all costs view of the world and nothing we can say can change it. We know our values. Let him off with his.

I am a Connacht supporter and I am very lucky to be watching my team play a European great tomorrow. I accept my team does not deserve to be in the comp and under every proposal for a future heino that would be the case, we would be out. For now at least! But watching Leinster today was brilliant. Not only because an Irish team won, but because an Irish team was playing an English one. While another Irish team was in Italy. And we get to do it all over again tomorrow and next week. It's so bloody amazing. And anyone who doesn't see how amazing it is just doesn't have the same appreciation for the sport we do. But there are thousands of quins fans who do share our values as there are great fans of our sport across the world. Rugby is not a business. It is not the nfl. It is a family. It is a family warts and all. With competitiveness and bad blood and amazing moments shared and lost. It seems romantic because it is romantic.

Quins - rugby is run by unions everywhere. The IRB, the 6 N, the 4N all run by unions all leagues are run by unions. the only ones that are not are the English and French leagues where the clubs get a say ( but not control) and guess what - those leagues are the worst off financially with many clubs running at huge losses and those clubs that cannot run huge losses are not able to be competitive. also blatant cheating on the salary cap and the like. If you think the AP is a good advert for having the clubs run the competitions you are badly deluded

And another good advert for having clubs run the game - AP teams competitiveness has declined relative to others since their gaining more control

TJ wrote:Quins - rugby is run by unions everywhere.  The IRB, the 6 N, the 4N all run by unions all leagues are run by unions.  the only ones that are not are the English and French leagues where the clubs get a say ( but not control) and guess what - those leagues are the worst off financially with many clubs running at huge losses and those clubs that cannot run huge losses are not able to be competitive.  also blatant cheating on the salary cap and the like.  If you think the AP is a good advert for having the clubs run the competitions you are badly deluded

That is complete rubbish. The only side to make the playoffs in recent years that don't overall make a profit are Saracens. And they have been developing their own stadium to try and make themselves profitable in the longer term, not just throwing money at the squad.

Tigers have only once in recent years made a loss, and that was a small loss while paying for stadium redevelopment. Unless I'm mistaken Saints have over a decade of making a profit every year. And I believe Quins are one of the other teams that also make money rather than losing it. The other side making a profit is Gloucester, and although they are having a bad year this time round they are generally competitive.

Bath are getting competitive and also running at a loss, but again like Saracens the owners are looking at stadium redevelopmentand improving the longer term financial viability.

I'd be very uncomfortable if there were no salary cap, and sugar daddies and the wealthy backers of clubs like Bath and Sarries could obliterate everyone else with Abramovichesque spending. However, that's not what's happening and to be honest doesn't look like happening any time soon.

So, in reality it's the clubs running at a loss that are struggling to be competitive - which isn't really all that surprising.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/07/rfu-chief-executive-european-competition

Next saga is a media briefing by Ian Ritchie on Tuesday. He seems the one person in this struggle that appears to be able to negotiate with any integrity!
Good luck.

So many AP teams run at a loss. AP teams are not competative in europe any more. But clubs are the best people to run the game?