Wimbledon 2023

by sirfredperry Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Wimbledon draw is published today. Should Djoko and Alcaraz progress at least they won't have to meet before the final unlike RG.

There might be less pressure on Carlos next week as most will have Novak as clear favourite. Alcaraz lost to Sinner in a terrific match last year but given another year's experience and a title at Queen's, Carlos can be expected to go deep this year.

Difficult to see much beyond the top two for the title but would be interested to hear what others might think and who they reckon we should watch out for. Expectations for Murray were somewhat dissipated by his defeat at Queen's by De Minaur in the sort of match you feel he should have done better at if he wanted to do well at SW19.

Still, as Dunblane's finest said himself, no one will fancy meeting him in the first round.

Swiatek went into Wimbledon last year on a massive unbeaten swing but then played horribly. Can't see that happening this year but she'll probably have to battle past the likes of Sabalenka and Rybakina if she wants to take the title.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:55 pm

Djoko breaks. It ain't over yet. He holds for 4-2. Fifth set, anyone?

by Oioi Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:02 pm

5th set likely, and you'd have to go with Novak - been there and done it so many times.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:06 pm

Rather tame ending to the 4th and now it's a one set shoot out. NEVER write Novak off.

As the BBC commentators have noticed, Djoko started to play far more aggressively, shortening the points and hitting winners.

You may well win one set against Djoko. You might even win two. But can you win three? This is the task facing Alcatraz.

by Duty281 Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:06 pm

Alcaraz appears to be hitting the wall, while Djokovic was back to his dominant best in the 4th.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:22 pm

Carlos wards off a BP early in the 5th and it's 1-1. Win or lose, Alcatraz has given us the final we hoped for.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:30 pm

A Djoko slip and a good passing shot gives Carlos the break and also leads to another break - that of Novak's racquet against the net post.

Alcatraz holds to go 3-1 up.

by Soul Requiem Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:38 pm

Petulant child, sorry but that's pathetic.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:45 pm

Still on serve at 4-3. Can Carlos see this out? Djoko saved two MPs v Rog in 2019. Words like sings and fat lady come to mind.

But a second service ace takes the Spaniard to 5-3.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:48 pm

Alcaraz to serve for the match at 5-4. This is the biggest game of his life. Can he do it?

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:52 pm

ALCARAZ WINS

by Duty281 Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:53 pm

Amazing! Well done to Alcaraz.

by Guest Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:54 pm

Alcaraz comes of age, confirms himself at #1.
Good match by and large

by Soul Requiem Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:55 pm

Get in there!

by Henman Bill Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:59 pm

After he missed the drop shot in the first point while serving for the match, I thought he had over played that shot and should stop it (even though it worked well for him earlier in the match). I couldn´t believe it when he played it again on the very next point. I don´t know if it was naivety or nerves or a touch of genius - it was certainly unexpected and wasn´t his best drop shot at all - but he just managed to win the point with the lob.

The volley on the next point was very good. Champion like. Boris Becker would approve. I didn´t think he was getting that back in when Novak hit a good shot.

Was Novak below par today vs rest of the tournament or rest of the year? I haven´t watched enough to judge for sure.

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:14 pm

First to say, it was a terrific match. Right until the end I thought maybe Djoko would come back. When Carlos hit that tremendous BH volley at 15-15 I knew he'd get over the line.

The second drop shot after fluffing the first was unbelievable. He could so easily have played the lob out.

Much to admire not least the fact that Djoko's long reign as the King of Centre Court is over. Also over is any hope of a Calendar Slam. Just shows how difficult that is.

If anything I thought Alcaraz had more chance of beating Djoko at RG than at Wimbledon given the Serb's success on grass and the Spaniard's relative inexperience on the surface.

The match itself? Djoko dominant in the first set and could easily have gone two sets up when leading 3-0 in the 2nd set tiebreak. Big change in the third set when Djoko started to make more UEs and Alcatraz realised he could stay in the rallies.

Fourth set showed what a great champion Djoko is. He looked down and out, but characteristically raised his game, shortened the rallies went, successfully, for more winners.

On to a 5th and for me I still wasn't sure who'd win. But every so often there would be an amazing shot - I can recall two enormous and scarcely believable cross-court forehands - and Alcatraz got the break, held on and was able to serve it out.

by Oioi Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:55 pm

I fully agree on how impressive that last game was SirFred. As for the match, it was good drama but I'd say they rarely both played well at the same time, with Djokovic in particular making a lot of uncharacteristic errors and some pretty poor serving. The 5th set was probably the best in terms of the overall level taking both players into account.

Very very impressive mental effort from Carlos though, especially after losing the first set so emphatically. I thought winning that one game in that set was absolutely crucial at the time as you don't want to go into the second set still trying to win your first game.

Carlos is surely set to be an all time great of the game and plays entertaining tennis so I'm really looking forward to following his career!

by **laverfan** Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:17 pm

Congratulations to Alcaraz! A new star is born. clap

Well played, Djokovic. clap

by sirfredperry Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:19 pm

Not sure all will agree but this was the result the sport needed. It was the lion bearded in his den, it was the King having his Crown Jewels nicked. Words like "the guard" and "changing of" spring to mind.

Comparisons can be made with the 1980 and 1981 Wimbledon finals when a young McEnroe first showed he could compete with Borg on Bjorn's favourite surface and, then, beat him.

Then there was the 2001 Sampras-Federer match at Wimbledon (a match I was lucky enough to be there to see) which seemed not all that significant at the time but was later shown to be a sea change in tennis.

Rafa beating Rog at Wimbledon in 08 and then at the AO a few months later signalled the end, not of Rog's GS title ambitions, but of his utter dominance.

The Djoko-Rafa Wimbledon final of 2011 was another turning point, with Djoko finally following up his 2008 AO triumph with another Slam - a win which was to lead to a veritable flood of Slams for the Serb.

If Alcaraz had lost today it would have seemed a little like the first of those Borg-McEnroe finals in 1980, with the King still on his Throne but the Young Pretender poised to topple him.

As it is we have a new guy ruling the roost, a 20-year-old who has broken a 20-year hold on the SW19 title by the Big Four.

What's not to like about the Spaniard? He seems happy, he smiles a lot, he can REALLY play, he's exciting to watch. You never quite know what to expect in sport. There are injuries or illness to contend with. But surely Alcaraz is destined for many years of Slam glory.

by **88Chris05** Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:58 pm

Well, we all knew Alcaraz was good and likely to be top dog at some stage. But he's got there a year or two ahead of schedule.

He really is the game's new sensation, and finally we have a player and character who looks worthy of running the gauntlet that Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have laid down over the previous couple of decades.

For the first time, I saw Djokovic being made to look his age at times today. His forehand wasn't really penetrating the court the way you'd expect and he was uncharacteristically off-balance and rushed at times. But that's largely because of the amazing speed, court coverage and athleticism of Alcaraz - and the Spaniard can even volley and use finesse with the best of them.

Like many people, I took his world number one ranking with a pinch of salt before this tournament due to factors working against Djokovic which we're all well-versed in, and felt he needed to beat Djokovic in a big match to really underline his credentials. Well he's certainly done that now! Can deservedly call himself the top man and the player to beat now.

Djokovic is going to win Slams again, in my opinion, so no need to feel sorry for him. But this is a significant result and potentially the dawning of a new era in men's tennis.

by No name Bertie Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:26 pm

Grass was supposedly Alcaraz' weakest surface. Alcaraz is capable of winning all four slams. He has already won the US Open and now Wimbledon in successive years. At 20 years and two months we have clearly our next generational great - as long as he remains injury free and motivated.

by Atila Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:09 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Well, we all knew Alcaraz was good and likely to be top dog at some stage. But he's got there a year or two ahead of schedule.

He really is the game's new sensation, and finally we have a player and character who looks worthy of running the gauntlet that Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have laid down over the previous couple of decades.

For the first time, I saw Djokovic being made to look his age at times today. His forehand wasn't really penetrating the court the way you'd expect and he was uncharacteristically off-balance and rushed at times. But that's largely because of the amazing speed, court coverage and athleticism of Alcaraz - and the Spaniard can even volley and use finesse with the best of them.

Like many people, I took his world number one ranking with a pinch of salt before this tournament due to factors working against Djokovic which we're all well-versed in, and felt he needed to beat Djokovic in a big match to really underline his credentials. Well he's certainly done that now! Can deservedly call himself the top man and the player to beat now.

Djokovic is going to win Slams again, in my opinion, so no need to feel sorry for him. But this is a significant result and potentially the dawning of a new era in men's tennis.

You might be right about Djokovic winning more slams, but don't forget after her last slam win at the AO in 2017, Serena was expected to go on and set a new record for slams. Even though she managed to make 4 more slam finals, she lost all of them. I guess the difference between Serena and Novak winning slam number 24 is that Novak seems to be in a lot better shape physically.

Anyways, congratulations to Carlos Alcaraz.

by Henman Bill Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:09 am

It does probably make sense to predict more slams for Novak given the recent history.

Of 9 slams played from 2021 to 2023 there have been 6 wins and 8 finals. The only one where he failed to get to the final was Rafa at the French Open (quarter final).

by sirfredperry Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:22 am

Interesting that in his post-match interview Djoko said he'd not played a player quite like Alcatraz. He added that the Spaniard had a similar, sliding defensive BH like his own and combined the very best of Rafa and Rog as well. Some compliment.

There has been, and will be, much talk of the "changing of the guard" and the "dethroning of the King of Centre Court". But for once the hyperbole is fitting. This was a highly significant result.

The Carlos win also opens the door for the other young players such as Sinner and Rune who with Alcaraz could dominate the sport for the next 10 years.

If you look at this morning's top 20, there is just ONE player over the age of 27 - Djoko. It almost seems like the guys tipped the take over from the Big Four - the likes of Thiem, Zverev and Tsitsipas - might not get their chance even when Rafa and Novak pack up.

Of the "older" younger players, perhaps only Medvedev, already with a Slam under his belt, has further big triumphs in him.

All this is speculation, of course. Another great player, perhaps only 15 or 16 years old now, could suddenly burst on to the scene in the way Alcaraz has.

The next two Slams could be interesting. Djoko didn't play in New York last year where Carlos took the title. Then Carlos missed Melbourne 2023 which saw Novak win another AO.

by No name Bertie Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:09 am

One thing to note was how easy it was for Alcaraz to get through to the final. Only Djokovic provided a test for him. Alcaraz may have won the French Open if not for getting cramp after he had won the second set to tie the match against Djokovic in the S-F.

SF: beats Medvedev: 6-3 6-3 6-3
QF: beats Rune: 7-6 6-4 6-4
4R: beats Berrettini: 3-6 6-3 6-3 6-3
....

RG 2023
SF: versus Djokovic: 3-6 7-5 [cramp: 1-6 1-6]
QF: Beats Tsitsipas: 6-2 6-1 7-6

by sirfredperry Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:48 am

It could be argued that both Wimbledon finalists had tough paths to the title match this year.

Djoko had to play Stan the Man early on then faced, in succession the 17th, 7th, 8th and 1st seeds.

Alcaraz last four matches were Berrettini, followed by the 6th,3rd and 2nd seeds.

If that wasn't enough for them to be considered to have earned their money the two engaged in a near-5hr spectacle.

by sirfredperry Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:24 am

I'm indebted to various newspapers for some interesting stats. Until yesterday no player born after 1987 had won Wimbledon, while the AO and the French still await a winner under the age of 36.

Also, the Big Three had scooped up 61 of the last 72 Slams (and I guess Murray and Stan the Man account for six of the others).

Meanwhile rain pushing the programme back to Sunday meant Britain Henry Searle's triumph in the Boys Singles yesterday had to compete with the Alcaraz heroics. Searle, apparently, banged down a 134mph serve at one point - besting Carlos at least in one department.

by sirfredperry Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:55 am

Interesting point made by Todd Woodbridge yesterday. He pointed out that Alcaraz had been close to defeat in his first match at Queen's last month.

W'bridge reckoned that had Carlos lost that match there would have been no way he would have won Wimbledon.

I thought all along that Djoko would win at SW19 again this year but that if anyone could beat him it would be Alcatraz. That's why I and many others no doubt was so pleased that both made it thru to the final.

Why did Alcatraz have a chance? His weapons for a start. There are plenty of them - a big serve, a huge forehand, lightening quick speed, variety, fitness, mental strength.

Looks like he can read the game well, too. In that third set he sensed that Djoko was making more UEs and that he could rally and still win the points without overforcing.

Djoko can console himself with the knowledge that he was involved and more than played his part in a fantastic match. Sometimes in tennis you can lose and be part of something utterly memorable. Think, merely, of McEnroe at the 1980 Wimbledon final, Federer at the 08 W'don final and the 09 Melbourne title match, Federer again - and heartbreakingly - at the 2019 Wimbledon final.

by Soul Requiem Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:53 am

Men's tennis desperately needed that result yesterday, it had been stagnant for quite a while with the new guard not stepping up. Thiem, Medvedev have won slams but the latter had an absolute shocker losing the Australian open final last year.

Alcaraz plays the game with youthful abandon which the crowd love and he actually smiles which makes a difference. Suspect he'll tighten up his game in the next couple of years but been a while since we've had someone that comfortable at the net.

by sirfredperry Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:56 am

Mention of Woodbridge leads me to suggest that Todd was a welcome addition to the BBC commentary team and also to suggest that Castle should be removed.

Without over-imposing himself, Woodbridge was refreshingly analytical and incisive. Also it got BBC away from the position where they bring to the mic someone whose first language is not English for the difficult task of getting in a few succinct words between rallies.

Feliciano Lopez, a lovely player and an engaging personality, should not be tried again IMHO. Tracey Austin, although quite astute, has a dreadful voice for broadcasting as does Sam Smith.

Overall, BBC coverage of Wimbledon and other sports, too, is over-matey and uncritical and tries far too hard to drag in viewers who don't like sport.

Unless it's Andy Murray in the final or England have got to a major soccer final you are NOT going to get people uninterested switching on.

by No name Bertie Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:01 pm

It seems to me that the Mens Tennis World finally has a worthy successor to the "Federer-Nadal-Djokovic" Era. The question will be are there any others that will arise to challenge Alcaraz.

by slashermcguirk Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:11 pm

From a Djokovic fan over many years, congrats to Alcaraz who deserved the win. I still can't believe Djokovic missed that routine backhand on set point in 2nd set tie break. Had he taken two set lead it was game over. Djokovic of his peak back around 2015 would never miss that. It feels like finally he is losing a yard of pace and it makes all the difference against a young fresh opponent over a 5 set match

Alcaraz is a great mover and could well dominate in the years ahead. You feel retirement will come in the next couple of years for Djokovic and Nadal. Better to stop when still playing a high level rather than drawing it out. I think Djokovic could still be a threat up to Australian open but from next year he will start to drift. If he was to hangup racket now, he can leave with so many records.

Alcaraz you feel will win a minimum of 10 slams but might push towards or past Sampras. If other next gen players don't keep up, he could win even more!

by No name Bertie Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:13 pm

sirfredperry wrote:.... Overall, BBC coverage of Wimbledon and other sports, too, is over-matey and uncritical and tries far too hard to drag in viewers ...

Interesting observation and probably applies beyond sports and to other organisations and groups too.

by No name Bertie Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:33 pm

Alcaraz: wins his first two grand slam finals.
Federer: wins his first seven grand slam finals - before losing to Nadal in the French Open.
Nadal: wins his first two grand slam finals - before losing to Federer at Wimbledon.
Djokovic: loses his first grand slam final to Federer at the US Open. Wins on his second attempt.
....

by slashermcguirk Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:10 pm

I think a lot comes down to who you face in 1st grand slam final. Djokovic as a teenager faced Federer in US open final in 2007. Funnily enough despite being straight sets, Djokovic had multiple set points in 1st and 2nd sets before losing 7-6 7-6 6-4. Federer even said that day he was unbelievably fortunate to come through in straight sets. Who would have thought in their remaining 4 slam final meetings, Federer would never beat him again.

Nadal faced Puerta in his 1st slam final and Alcaraz faced Ruud..I think its safe to say Djokovic had the toughest 1st slam final opponent.

I think Federers 1st slam final opponent was Philippousis but could be mistaken, might have been roddick or baghdatis. Would need to check

by Guest Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:19 pm

slashermcguirk wrote:I think a lot comes down to who you face in 1st grand slam final. Djokovic as a teenager faced Federer in US open final in 2007. Funnily enough despite being straight sets, Djokovic had multiple set points in 1st and 2nd sets before losing 7-6 7-6 6-4. Federer even said that day he was unbelievably fortunate to come through in straight sets. Who would have thought in their remaining 4 slam final meetings, Federer would never beat him again.

Nadal faced Puerta in his 1st slam final and Alcaraz faced Ruud..I think its safe to say Djokovic had the toughest 1st slam final opponent.

I think Federers 1st slam final opponent was Philippousis but could be mistaken, might have been roddick or baghdatis. Would need to check

I'd point out that whilst Nadal beat Puerta, he did beat Federer in the semifinal - granted it's not the final, but he beat the number 1 on route to the title.

by Guest Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:21 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Mention of Woodbridge leads me to suggest that Todd was a welcome addition to the BBC commentary team and also to suggest that Castle should be removed.

Without over-imposing himself, Woodbridge was refreshingly analytical and incisive. Also it got BBC away from the position where they bring to the mic someone whose first language is not English for the difficult task of getting in a few succinct words between rallies.

Feliciano Lopez, a lovely player and an engaging personality, should not be tried again IMHO. Tracey Austin, although quite astute, has a dreadful voice for broadcasting as does Sam Smith.

Overall, BBC coverage of Wimbledon and other sports, too, is over-matey and uncritical and tries far too hard to drag in viewers who don't like sport.

Unless it's Andy Murray in the final or England have got to a major soccer final you are NOT going to get people uninterested switching on.

Personally thought the commentary at times was awful. Andrew Castle jumping in to John McEnroe many times.
Sam Smith's bias towards Jabeur was embarrassing.

BBC should get better British pundits.

by **laverfan** Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:01 pm

slashermcguirk wrote:I think Federers 1st slam final opponent was Philippousis but could be mistaken, might have been roddick or baghdatis. Would need to check

Philippousis (Wimbledon 2003 Final), Roddick (Wimbledon 2004 Final, Wimbledon 2003 SF) and Baghdatis (AO 2006 Final).

by slashermcguirk Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:37 pm

Yes Nadal beating Fed in semis very impressive that 1st slam he won..I was looking at that US Open 2007 when Novak reached his first slam final. En route to final with Federer, Djokovic beat Ferrer, Del Potro, Moya, Monaco, Stepanek. All those lads were around top 10-20 in the world so that would have been a very tough draw to get to the final, especially when you consider Djokovic was a teenager at that time. He would go on to win his very next slam beating Federer in semis of oz 2008 and Tsonga in final. Bear in mind Tsonga destroyed Nadal in semis that week and he also knocked out Andy Murray in 1st round.

by slashermcguirk Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:40 pm

laverfan wrote:
slashermcguirk wrote:I think Federers 1st slam final opponent was Philippousis but could be mistaken, might have been roddick or baghdatis. Would need to check
Philippousis (Wimbledon 2003 Final), Roddick (Wimbledon 2004 Final, Wimbledon 2003 SF) and Baghdatis (AO 2006 Final).

I would say Roddick still has nitemares about Federer. He was such a nitemare match up for him, when Roddick won that US Open he must have thought he was maybe going to win 3 or 4 slams, Federer was his absolute nemesis. Roddick was pretty much gone by 2011/2012 when Djokovic and Murray were properly getting in their groove

by slashermcguirk Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:43 pm

Jeff Navarro wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:Mention of Woodbridge leads me to suggest that Todd was a welcome addition to the BBC commentary team and also to suggest that Castle should be removed.

Without over-imposing himself, Woodbridge was refreshingly analytical and incisive. Also it got BBC away from the position where they bring to the mic someone whose first language is not English for the difficult task of getting in a few succinct words between rallies.

Feliciano Lopez, a lovely player and an engaging personality, should not be tried again IMHO. Tracey Austin, although quite astute, has a dreadful voice for broadcasting as does Sam Smith.

Overall, BBC coverage of Wimbledon and other sports, too, is over-matey and uncritical and tries far too hard to drag in viewers who don't like sport.

Unless it's Andy Murray in the final or England have got to a major soccer final you are NOT going to get people uninterested switching on.

Personally thought the commentary at times was awful. Andrew Castle jumping in to John McEnroe many times.
Sam Smith's bias towards Jabeur was embarrassing.

BBC should get better British pundits.

Andrew Castle is unbearable on commentary. I love listening to McEnroe, great insights which is not surprising given how great a player he was. The sooner they get rid of Castle the better. Balding is painful too

by **laverfan** Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:55 pm

slashermcguirk wrote:
laverfan wrote:
slashermcguirk wrote:I think Federers 1st slam final opponent was Philippousis but could be mistaken, might have been roddick or baghdatis. Would need to check
Philippousis (Wimbledon 2003 Final), Roddick (Wimbledon 2004 Final, Wimbledon 2003 SF) and Baghdatis (AO 2006 Final).

I would say Roddick still has nitemares about Federer. He was such a nitemare match up for him, when Roddick won that US Open he must have thought he was maybe going to win 3 or 4 slams, Federer was his absolute nemesis. Roddick was pretty much gone by 2011/2012 when Djokovic and Murray were properly getting in their groove

by dummy_half Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:50 pm

At what point do we officially declare the era of the Big 3 / Big 4 over?

Federer limited by injury and now retired
Nadal limited by injury and officially retiring at the end of next season )I have my doubts he'll make it that far)
Murray half the player he was pre hip injury
Djokovic the only one still flying the flag for the oldies

First Wimbledon not won by one of the 4 listed above since 2002...Quite some stretch of dominance from a group of near-contemporaries.

by sirfredperry Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:51 am

As long as Djoko is around and winning, or almost winning, Slams then it's probably still too early to call a halt to the Big 3/4 era.

The USO has been the one Slam that the big boys have not dominated, at least not since 2008. So it would be a less of a surprise if someone other than Djoko wins it this year.

However, should Djoko not win the AO - a Slam he's pretty much taken over in recent years - then it could signal the beginning of the end of the Big Four.

Sometimes there is a swansong. Sampras managed one by winning the USO in 2002. Federer, who looked finished in 2016, managed THREE more Slams in 2017/18 and was a whisker away from another in 2019.

One indication that an era is over is if someone else becomes favourite for a big title. Some, even many perhaps, made Alcaraz favourite for the French this year. I thought Djoko was still the man to beat.

Given Alcaraz's relative inexperience on grass and Djoko's mastery of the Centre Court, Novak was clear favourite for this year's Wimbledon.

But I think most will look no further than Carlos for the title in New York this year.

by slashermcguirk Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:49 pm

Us open usually the most interesting slam simply as jts always the most unpredictable. Just takes a power hitter to have a big day and they can take out anyone. It's probably the easiest slam to hit through an opponent, also it comes as the end of a long slam season and often the top players are exhausted or even injured. Alcaraz the big favourite but upsets not unusual in New York

by Henman Bill Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:30 pm

dummy_half wrote:
First Wimbledon not won by one of the 4 listed above since 2002....

Amazing stat - 2003 to 2022 then, a 20 year period of dominance

The unpredictability of the US Open does give the opportunity to beat Nadal and Djokovic by hitting through them - although in recent years it hasn't been that fast.

I'm not sure if that applies to Alcaraz though - he seems to have the game to do well on fast or slow courts - he's not a slow rallier that you can beat by swinging big and getting lots of shots in.

I think he can do quite well on indoor courts too - we haven't seen much of him on indoor yet due to injury at end of last year.

by No name Bertie Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:46 pm

The Big Four / Three Era is all but over with the arrival of Alcaraz and him beating an aging 36 year old Djokovic in a Wimbledon Final. Djokovic will never again be favorite to beat the 16 year younger Alcaraz. It seemed highly likely that Alcaraz would have beaten Djokovic at Roland Garros this year if not getting cramp after leveling up on sets 3-6 7-5 in the semi final. It took a brilliant Zverev to beat Alcaraz in the QF of Roland Garros last year.

Whereas in 2021 Djokovic was beaten by Medvedev in US Open final - that was more due to the physical and mental condition of Djokovic than Medvedev. In Alcaraz however, we have someone who is just better than this elder version of Djokovic. Will Djokovic ever beat Alcaraz again in a grand slam? I think it is unlikely, although Djokovic of course has an experience advantage over Alcaraz.

ps: It seemed that the big four / three era would end by decrepitude and it more or less has: Federer 41 & retired; Nadal 37; Murray 36 + replacement hip; Djokovic 36. However at the decrepit tail end of this era has arisen someone who definitely has started out as the next potential generational great and someone who will likely keep me interested in tennis in the post big four/three era.

by Henman Bill Tue Jul 18, 2023 11:13 pm

I would not have Alcaraz strong favourite if they met at say the Australian Open

I would have that 50/50

I think we have to factor in that Novak didn't play his very best in the final and there were a few errors in there

Plus Alcaraz is a young kid who could end up with personal problems if his entourage don't keep him grounded, issues dealing with fame, and so on

On the other hand I don't think Alcaraz is at peak either yet

I might change my mind and agree with you if Alcaraz wins the next slam meeting, or if he just seems to be playing better

by Henman Bill Tue Jul 18, 2023 11:35 pm

One of the things that makes Federer, Nadal and Djokovic so great is that as they got older they never let any of their younger opponents build up massive winning streaks against them that couldn't be overturned

Until Federer, Nadal and Djokovic came along tennis peak was about 26 and 30-32 year olds who had been number 1 not long before would typically get trashed by the player who came in of the next generation who was 5-6 years younger. Whether more due to the big 3's greatness,or better modern physio/fitness/diet/medicine etc, they turned this historical trend around (it could also have been less dramatic changes to rackets during their career)

Borg lost to Mcenroe at Wimbledon and the US Open and gave up and retired
Connors lost many matches in a row to Lendl (Mcenroe did also)
Agassi won his first 3 matches against a young, no slam Roger Federer before losing 8 in a row

I think there are various other examples that I can't call to mind right now

Some players like Sampras, retired early perhaps partly to avoid this happening to them. I think it's pretty clear that 2004 Federer would have beaten Sampras on every surface (in 2004)

When Federer lost to Nadal at the Australian Open in 2009, history suggested that that was that, Nadal, who was already well in the lead by then, should give him the run around after that. But Roger won 6 out of their last 7 matches, including two slams.

He was also 6-2 down to Murray with lots of losses in the years he was dominating (2006-2009), before turning it around and eventually ending up 14-11 ahead

Nadal and Djokovic perhaps haven't had a true (much younger) great to contend with but they got well into their 30s without being completely dominated by anyone.

It would be quite understandable if the 36 year old Djokovic ended up struggling with the next great. In history a lot of players were struggling against the next great while still just in their 20s.

by sirfredperry Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:31 am

Although Djoko was not at his absolute best in the final he was close to it. The second set tiebreak, pivotal to the outcome of the match, saw him make uncharacteristic mistakes. Doubt whether Alcaraz would have come back from two sets down.

In the 4th set Djoko showed what a great champion he is/was. Seemingly down and out, he got more aggressive and got right back in the match when many would have crumbled.

As far as Alcaraz's head being turned by fame is concerned, I think, and certainly hope, that it won't happen. He seems a happy, smiling, straight-forward soul.

by prostaff85 Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:05 am

IF Djokovic would start losing to Alcaraz from now on (and possibly to other young players), will he really go on playing as if he were 26, or join Rafa into retirement?

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