2023 Season Thread

[Lowlandbrit]

First topic message reminder :

Mark Cavendish has ended up at Astana, Peter Sagan has said this will be his last season.

[dummy_half]

The tech features you cite go back many years though...

I'm old - my first decent road bike had non-indexed gearing. Even the bikes the likes of Lemond or Hinault rode only had 12 gears (which would typically be something like 54-42 front, 12-24 rear) certainly a lot more gaps in the gearing than with the modern 20 or 22 gears, compact chainrings and oversized rear sprockets)

[formerly known as Sam]

Every year those rear derailleurs do get bigger as well. Jumbo even used those gravel options at the Tour. No way 1x would have been an option for a top tour contending team a few years back. Aqua Blue tried (were forced to use) 1x back in 2018 and it was a disaster.

More gears and a bigger spread definitely plays towards those who can be relentless as opposed to those who are more explosive.

Aero bikes being increasingly lightweight means these guys are going faster than ever as well.

[Azabache]

I recall that the front small ring back in those days was typically a 39?

Anyway, I agree with all the examples given but these are incremental and I'm not sure can explain some of the performances we've seen. As far as I'm aware, the UCI minimum weight is still 6.8KG.

Higher cadences (e.g. Froome) may be a factor-given mental toughness and supreme fitness. Being a dour, stubborn Dane probably helps as well!

[formerly known as Sam]

The weight limit is still 6.8kg but if you look back only a few years the difference in frame design is startling. There's so much more aero profiling now on bikes that are still really light. At the speeds those guys ride that's saving a lot of watts.

I suspect if they dropped the weight limit we might see more conventional bike shapes suddenly reappear to take advantage of the reduced weight. The Specialized Aethos is it? Ridiculously lightweight frame but not raced as the Tarmac is light enough but more aero.

[Lowlandbrit]

Van der Poel takes the rainbow jersey despite falling (and the race being held up by protesters cementing themselves to the road). Van Aert and Pogacar complete the podium.

[Azabache]

Terrific race. Good to see Pogacar compete (and get on the podium) after his efforts at the Tour, unlike the absent Humourless Automaton.

[dummy_half]

Van der Poel takes the rainbow jersey despite falling (and the race being held up by protesters cementing themselves to the road). Van Aert and Pogacar complete the podium.

Not a bad podium I suppose (was it the same podium at Gent -Wevelghem this year?) - wonder if Pogacar fancies trying a bit of cyclo-cross this winter to see if they can replicate the results on the dirt.

[dummy_half]

And we now have the slightly absurd situation where a guy who only races mountain bike XC for fun when his road racing commitments allow, is both the Olympic and World Champion. Think it's fair to say that Pidcock is the best mountain biker int he world at the moment. Imagine if he took it seriously...

I think I've now watched TP in 4 mountain ike races - he's won all of them.

[Soul Requiem]

And we now have the slightly absurd situation where a guy who only races mountain bike XC for fun when his road racing commitments allow, is both the Olympic and World Champion. Think it's fair to say that Pidcock is the best mountain biker int he world at the moment. Imagine if he took it seriously...

I think I've now watched TP in 4 mountain ike races - he's won all of them.

He had major issues with the bike too so had to nurse around the final few laps, still won at a canter.

[Lowlandbrit]

Vuelta starts next week. Roglic and Vingegaard looking to make it a Jumbo-Visma GT clean sweep, Evenepoel returns to defend his title after all, and with Ineos taking Thomas and Bernal there's certainly plenty of star power!

[Azabache]

I dread the potential boredom!

Let's hope some Latins (Spanish or Italian) can scupper the Humourless Automaton; maybe a carefully hatched plot near the end like has happened over the years....

[mountain man]

Boredom?

I love watching Jumbo Visma and think Vingegaard is a brilliant rider, he may not be the "personality" of a Pogacar but that doesn't win races.
With Remco back it's not going to be all one way traffic. Can't see Thomas winning, he'll be hoping for a podium at best I'd say.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That Jumbo Visma squad is absolutely ludicrous - Roglic, Vingegaard, Kuss, Kelderman, Tratnik, Gesink, Valter and Van Baarle.
Kuss and Kelderman could easily top 10 in GC if they went for it themselves, before you even get to Roglic/Vingegaard. They're going to dominate this surely

[Soul Requiem]

Boredom?

I love watching Jumbo Visma and think Vingegaard is a brilliant rider, he may not be the "personality" of a Pogacar but that doesn't win races.
With Remco back it's not going to be all one way traffic. Can't see Thomas winning, he'll be hoping for a podium at best I'd say.

I'm with Aza here, I find both Vingegaard and Roglic dull to watch, yes they win but it's very much through a low risk team driven effort. Winning is the name of the game but it's not the be all and end all for spectators.

[Azabache]

Unfortunately Valverde and Nibali have retired, but let's hope there are some enterprising riders in the race prepared to take some risks, create some spirit, and have an affinity for the great traditions of this Grand Tour.

The Spanish spectators deserve more than what is being predicted here (clean sweeps, domination....!).

I personally have some hopes for an upset at some point; this race in particular has history in this respect.

[mountain man]

There are far too many variables during a 3 week GT to say anything is certain.

Given the nature of course, very mountainous with only a few sprint stages it'll be all about GC.

Yes on paper Jumbo Visma have strongest team but a lot can change during one stage let alone 21 of them.

[Azabache]

Yep-well, we can but hope that it's clean and no nasty accidents befall the leading contenders-well, anyone for that matter.

Highlights are on Quest-good news for those of us that only have Freeview and refuse to pay for any more channels.

I still have hopes for Bernal-forlorn I expect!

[dummy_half]

JV's team is very strong on paper, but I think they've all done at least one previous GT this year, so there's the possibility of fatigue. Also the Vuelta is traditionally probably the GT with the most steep mountain climbs and fewest ITT kms, so historically favours absolute climbers.

Yes, if I was to bet it would be on a JV rider to win, but there are always a few imponderables, especially with Roglic (who has been known to crash out of races quite frequently).

Don't see Bernal being a threat- his TdF and subsequent form has been around the level of the second mountain domestique, so useful from a team perspective but not one to expect any results.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It's going to be interesting to see how some of the young talent goes - lot of highly touted youngsters like Poole, Onley, Gregoire, Martinez, Uijtdebroeks alongside of course the main guys like Remco and Ayuso

[Lowlandbrit]

First blood to Evenepoel in Andorra (literally, after colliding with someone after the finish line), although he also took a useful amount of time in the opening TTT.
Uijtdebroeks and Martinez (and Ayuso) doing well so far.

[mountain man]

Been away for a few days so only caught up with highlights last night.
Good win for Evenepoel although why he didn't brake after line and heading into that barriered area is a bit odd. Apparently it was a soigneur from another team not just some random spectator.

He's blaming her and others but to be honest he also bears some responsibility as he was going way too quick.

[Lowlandbrit]

After the ITT (won by Ganna) things are looking interestingly poised:
1: Kuss
2: Soler 26"
3: Evenepoel 1'09"
4: Roglic 1'36"
5: Martinez 2'02"
6: Almeida 2'16"
7: Vingegaard 2'22"
8: Ayuso 2'25"
9: Mas 2'50"
10: Vlasov 3'14"
Carthy top Brit in 13th (4'56")

[Azabache]

The next 3 days are key-will the TJV automaton be frustrated?

(On the rest day I started to catch up on the Tour of Britain-they were up there too-like a rash! At least Van Aert seems a bit more relaxed and has learnt to smile.)

[formerly known as Sam]

Evenepoel looking ill and suffering early is not good for the race. The speed looks brutal on the second climb so it won't get any easier for him.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That Jumbo Visma squad is absolutely ludicrous - Roglic, Vingegaard, Kuss, Kelderman, Tratnik, Gesink, Valter and Van Baarle.
Kuss and Kelderman could easily top 10 in GC if they went for it themselves, before you even get to Roglic/Vingegaard. They're going to dominate this surely

As anticipated, the Jumbo squad is just far too powerful - barring any crashes, they're going to have the full podium of their riders, and we're set for quite a dull third week unfortunately.

[formerly known as Sam]

It's an almost vulgar display of power today. Very much the 1,2,3 looks on.

Competition is only for the other jerseys.

[Azabache]

One has to accept what we are seeing but, frankly, is this good for the sport?

I hope there is a professional, impartial investigative journalist out there-like David Walsh of the LA uncovering-who doesn't succumb to the uncritical, almost hysterical hero worshipping that one witnessed today by the Quest channel team.

And later, on the ITV4 Tour of Britain highlights prog., even the usually sound David Millar was bordering on the embarrassing with his adulation of TJV.

I never thought that I would look forward to a final week of a Grand Tour with boredom and cynicism....

[formerly known as Sam]

It will be interesting to see the team dynamics in the final week. Will the team tell them to make it a procession or allow the to race. Will they force Kuss to allow one of the big guns to go up the road? If there's team infighting then someone from a way down could sneak back into contention.

[Azabache]

And-hey presto-we get an incredible, awesome ride by Remco to rival Froome's famous turnaround on Stage 19 of the 2018 Giro.

But unfortunately too late it would seem to stop You Know Who...

[formerly known as Sam]

First signs of discontent amongst the Jumbo ranks. All three want to win but for the team the best thing might be for them to form up around Kuss. The other two will need him to be a domestique next year, at the end of which his contract is up. If either Jonas or Roglic damage the relationship with him and don't work as a team now he might be less inclined to help them through their rough patches next year or turn down the inevitable advances from the other big spenders who would happily offer him a bigger role at grand tours.

[Azabache]

A good analysis on the Quest highlights prog. later. Sean Kelly was particularly scathing about the two winners' seemingly absence of etiquette, nay decency.

Well, it's only more evidence of what I was alluding to during the Tour: they might be the No. 1 team and are winning/will win, everything for a while but they are not "nice"-several of the riders and the management-but they don't care and are cold-hearted-witness the unconvincing post-stage interview with Jonas.

(There's no guarantee, though, that Sepp will thrive in another team-he may need this "challenging" atmosphere!)

David Millar recently on the Tour of Britain coverage said that they are only successfully following the Team Sky/Ineos model-true, but I will always have fond memories of them-even of US Postal/Discovery! I just can't warm to TJV.

Earlier posts debated Jonas's constitution...obviously a major factor must be genetic but I wonder about how much he seems to be draining himself-he ended yesterday's stage pale, knackered, almost as if his body was going to consume him-a remarkable talent-let's hope he doesn't ruin himself prematurely.

[mountain man]

Quest though is simply diabolical coverage.

Commentators useless, Sean "yes well" Kelly inane comments. Orla auditioning for Love Island host.

Give me ITV4 every day with Boulting, Millar and Imlach. Daniel Friebe excellent on the interviews.

As to Vuelta, Kuss deserves win and Roglic and Vingegaard ensuring it. Might be team orders but Sepp does so much for them in Tour etc.

As for Jonas, I mentioned that during Tour. He looks at times unhealthily pale and gaunt etc. Think it's just the way he is.

[Azabache]

I wouldn't go that strong! I assume that it's hastily put together from the day's earlier live coverage. Well, that's all I can access for free so grateful for anything. Agree re. ITV4 but any programme with Millar has an advantage-IMHO he's sublime.

Tomorrow appears to be the last stage for any upsets-we can but hope (without wishing for any accidents of course)...

[Lowlandbrit]

It's been an open secret that Ineos want Evenepoel badly, to the point that it's been suggested they might buy Lefevere's team to get his contract. The new wrinkle is that apparently that story lead to Jumbo-Visma and Soudal Quick-Step discussing a merger. Sound like an awful idea on a number of levels, but there does seem to be some smoke...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It's been an open secret that Ineos want Evenepoel badly, to the point that it's been suggested they might buy Lefevere's team to get his contract. The new wrinkle is that apparently that story lead to Jumbo-Visma and Soudal Quick-Step discussing a merger. Sound like an awful idea on a number of levels, but there does seem to be some smoke...

What a shame for the sport that would be if such a merger went through.

[Azabache]

We just need the Americans, Saudis, Qataris etc. to ruin the sport as we know it; fortunately-so far-it hasn't the really big bucks/mass interest pull like Soccer to attract their poisonous influence....

[dummy_half]

We just need the Americans, Saudis, Qataris etc. to ruin the sport as we know it; fortunately-so far-it hasn't the really big bucks/mass interest pull like Soccer to attract their poisonous influence....

UAE and Bahrain are both big teams, but obviously operate in the same budgetary stratosphere as the other major teams.

How would team mergeres play out with the Pro Tour licenses? I understood that the license holders were the team management, so buying Lefevre's team would presumably buy out his license as well?

[Lowlandbrit]

One thing we do know for sure is TJV's answer to the 'how to keep everyone happy' question: Roglic is being allowed to leave. Ineos early favourites in the battle of the teams with deep pockets but no realistic GC contender.

[Lowlandbrit]

Cavendish is unretiring again. Hope this doesn't end up getting sad.

[Azabache]

Well, there are quite a few examples of older ones than he soldiering on but he seems too accident prone and I hope it doesn't end in tears.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Seems like they're getting the band back together - Ballerini and Morkov joining Astana too for his leadout

[Azabache]

At the end of the day-and, sorry, this has been debated before-IF he achieves what seems to be his obsession (and that of many followers) he still won't be the greatest TdF rider of all time.

[Lowlandbrit]

TJV news summary: merger is off, Roglic is going to BORA.

[formerly known as Sam]

TJV news summary: merger is off, Roglic is going to BORA.

Potentially a big blow for Ineos. They are now in a position where four other teams have better leaders for the tdf than they do.

Glad the merger is off.

[dummy_half]

At the end of the day-and, sorry, this has been debated before-IF he achieves what seems to be his obsession (and that of many followers) he still won't be the greatest TdF rider of all time.

I don't think anyone (other than certain hype-merchant commentators) would make the claim that Cav was the Greatest TdF rider - can't even really claim him as the most successful, as Merckx's stage wins were accompanied by 5 x overall GC wins, and at least one each of the points and KoM classifications. However, getting in the record books for the most stage wins would still be an amazing achievement.

It's difficult to know quite where to rate Cav's career - won an awful lot of GT stages, a World Championship on the road and three on the track, a Monument plus a handful of semi-classics, stages and occasionally overalls in lesser stage races. Obviously a hugely successful career, but within quite a narrow niche - was never a contender in he cobbled classics or anything with more than a gentle rise in the road. To suggest he was top 20 all time is probably a bit generous even though there is only Merckx ahead of him for professional race wins.

[formerly known as Sam]

Cav is one of the great sprinters. Points jersey winner in all three grand tours on top of an envious win rate on the track and on the road. Eddy Mercx was a different animal and probably the greatest all round cyclist.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

At the end of the day-and, sorry, this has been debated before-IF he achieves what seems to be his obsession (and that of many followers) he still won't be the greatest TdF rider of all time.

I don't think anyone (other than certain hype-merchant commentators) would make the claim that Cav was the Greatest TdF rider - can't even really claim him as the most successful, as Merckx's stage wins were accompanied by 5 x overall GC wins, and at least one each of the points and KoM classifications. However, getting in the record books for the most stage wins would still be an amazing achievement.

It's difficult to know quite where to rate Cav's career - won an awful lot of GT stages, a World Championship on the road and three on the track,  a Monument plus a handful of semi-classics, stages and occasionally overalls in lesser stage races. Obviously a hugely successful career, but within quite a narrow niche - was never a contender in he cobbled classics or anything with more than a gentle rise in the road. To suggest he was top 20 all time is probably a bit generous even though there is only Merckx ahead of him for professional race wins.

Is he not at worst in the conversation for greatest sprinter ever, if not the greatest sprinter ever?
As Sam says, points jersey won in all three grand tours, a world champion, an MSR win plus the TdF stage wins surely equates to more or at least what other sprinters have achieved?

[dummy_half]

At the end of the day-and, sorry, this has been debated before-IF he achieves what seems to be his obsession (and that of many followers) he still won't be the greatest TdF rider of all time.

I don't think anyone (other than certain hype-merchant commentators) would make the claim that Cav was the Greatest TdF rider - can't even really claim him as the most successful, as Merckx's stage wins were accompanied by 5 x overall GC wins, and at least one each of the points and KoM classifications. However, getting in the record books for the most stage wins would still be an amazing achievement.

It's difficult to know quite where to rate Cav's career - won an awful lot of GT stages, a World Championship on the road and three on the track,  a Monument plus a handful of semi-classics, stages and occasionally overalls in lesser stage races. Obviously a hugely successful career, but within quite a narrow niche - was never a contender in he cobbled classics or anything with more than a gentle rise in the road. To suggest he was top 20 all time is probably a bit generous even though there is only Merckx ahead of him for professional race wins.

Is he not at worst in the conversation for greatest sprinter ever, if not the greatest sprinter ever?
As Sam says, points jersey won in all three grand tours, a world champion, an MSR win plus the TdF stage wins surely equates to more or at least what other sprinters have achieved?

Greatest pure sprinter is a given - he distanced Cipollini and a few others many years ago. Of course worth noting that pure sprinters have only been around since the 70s - prior to that, everyone was more an all-rounder even if some were more noted for a fast finish as opposed to others speed endurance.

The question is more how you weight sprint wins of an otherwise limited rider against either sprint + Classics wins or against Grand Tour successes, and because it is rather an 'apples to oranges' comparison, it isn't easy.

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