LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

flyhalffactory wrote: a week before that, SA were lucky to get to the WC final because an injury ravaged Wales took them to the wire.

The ANC was used used by everyone except for England as a development campaign especially Gregors Autumn picks, where Pivac's Wales was a totally different animal in the ANC 2020 as opposed to the 6Ns 2021 as was England ANC 2020 v 6Ns 2021 (almost the same squad).

Wales: Halfpenny; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Biggar, G Davies; Wyn Jones, Owens, Francis, Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty

Doesn't look injury ravaged for the game Vs South Africa, missing Falatau and Liam Williams.

Now come the ANC Wales did have some injuries then. I wouldn't say everyone used it as a development cup though. France were forced to by their clubs.

Personally I couldn't care less what nationality the players are. I'm English, I support England and the first name on the team sheet for me would be Hamish Watson. On current form the second would be Robbie Henshaw. I'd rather win then send out an English XV because that doesn't represent the Lions nor would it be the best team.

Having said that I'm not massively inspired by that coaching selection, Townsend as attack coach could be interesting. I suppose a few coaches higher up the list made themselves unavailable though I'm disappointed Razor's offer to be an assistant wasn't taken up. Super Rugby's best coach would have given a different perspective.

The Oracle wrote:

123456789. wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

123456789. wrote:The Times are reporting that Tandy and McBryde have got the call up. So led by an ex-Welsh coach, with two Welshmen in the rest of the backroom team. One based in Ireland and one in Scotland. With a Scottish backs coach. One would bet on a squad that would reflect the Six Nations. A predominance of Welsh players, the champions; with a smattering of Scots and Irish with a few English extras.

Something tells me you’re not too happy about this rumour!

I'm perfectly happy with it if that's the break up of the tour party. Wales won the Six Nations.

It was the way you deliberately singled out the nationality of the coaches.  Seemed to be implying something. Apologies if I’ve read too much into it

Have to say though, Wales might have won the 6 nations but not with any of these coaches (well, ok Neil Jenkins was there).  Not saying they should have taken any.  We need full representation from all nations, or as much as possible given availability.  

Apologies that wasn't what I meant but I should have been clearer. I was just mentioning the national allegiances of the coaches involved - more to highlight the lack of English representation. It is an interesting dynamic in terms of how the Lions function commercially, England makes up the bulk of the collective Lions population and economy. The Lions could afford to drop a certain percentage of the Scottish rugby public over the years. England might not be so straightforward. I might be reading too much into it. I certainly don't expect a small number of English tourists per se. I would not be remotely surprised if only a handful of English players tour, and then Eddie Jones gets them back into shape and they win a Grand Slam with lots of Eddie Jones comments along the way.

Nine of the twenty-two that started the first test in 2005 were involved in the World Cup final two years before. Along with four other English players. This was despite England not really being at the races in 2005. The Lions were trounced.

It seems fairly obvious to me that England have very, very good rugby players. There is a reason that they have won the things that they have won. However they were pretty poor throughout the Six Nations. Farrell, on his last five games, should not be a Lions tourist. This season is the only time in the last nine years that has been the case. With zero first class games between now and the Lions tour are they likely to reach the standard to beat South Africa away from home? I would say no. They were basically trounced in the Ireland game despite having four tier one games to get up to speed.

It's a bloody shame - largely caused by Covid and Saracens' scandal so not remotely the players fault. It means that some very good players who could have been in the mix to start for the Lions now probably should not because the form just is not there. I saw nothing in Billy Vunipola's (one of my favourite players over the last few years) trundles that warranted his continued selection for England over Simmonds or Dombrandt, let alone over Faletau for the Lions. That's a pain because Vunipola and Faletau have been two of the best number 8s in the world since 2015 and it would have been good to see them push each other or even play together.

Eddie Jones made a sensible choice in the grand scheme of things for England, keeping a fairly settled team together despite obvious problems with match fitness, that may well prove beneficial for England in the long run. The Saracens contingent made a fairly noble decision to stick with club that developed (and remunerated them handsomely) through their travails. That does mean that England were off the speed because their players were too. As the Lions is a one off, not a development tour, it makes sense that the squad reflects that.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote: a week before that, SA were lucky to get to the WC final because an injury ravaged Wales took them to the wire.

The ANC was used used by everyone except for England as a development campaign especially Gregors Autumn picks, where Pivac's Wales was a totally different animal in the ANC 2020 as opposed to the 6Ns 2021 as was England ANC 2020 v 6Ns 2021 (almost the same squad).

Wales: Halfpenny; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Biggar, G Davies; Wyn Jones, Owens, Francis, Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty

Doesn't look injury ravaged for the game Vs South Africa, missing Falatau and Liam Williams.

Now come the ANC Wales did have some injuries then. I wouldn't say everyone used it as a development cup though. France were forced to by their clubs.

Personally I couldn't care less what nationality the players are. I'm English, I support England and the first name on the team sheet for me would be Hamish Watson. On current form the second would be Robbie Henshaw. I'd rather win then send out an English XV because that doesn't represent the Lions nor would it be the best team.

Having said that I'm not massively inspired by that coaching selection, Townsend as attack coach could be interesting. I suppose a few coaches higher up the list made themselves unavailable though I'm disappointed Razor's offer to be an assistant wasn't taken up. Super Rugby's best coach would have given a different perspective.

Agree might not look injury ravaged and I thought that, but I can remember my Welsh colleagues reeling off Navidi, Faletau, Williams, Cory Hill were out and back home, Foxy Davies & AWJ were basically walking wounded (both were out for the best part of 12 months after the match), Biggar was carrying an injury, prop Francis (shoulder) & North (hamstring) forced off, Patchell & Shingler came on and played through initial knocks during the game (both still out injured).

I think that whether forced by politics (France) or injury (Wales) I still think both nations new coaches insinuated that the ANC would be used for developing strategy and player development, I know we brought in about 4 new players including Keeble and DvdM and 5-6 players we hadn't used in 2020

Like you, I am a Lions fan during the tour. I'm Scottish but if only Hogg starts then so be it, I wouldn't be cheesed off if Curry, Tipuric or Stander started before Watson (be disappointed but not cheesed off)

Cheers compardre

themoondude wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

themoondude wrote:Yes my opinion. What's yours?

If only a few 'extra' English players are going to tour, it might be a good idea to make a list from the group of players who have won three six nations titles, one autumn nations cup, and reached a world cup final in the last 5 years. Who will be the 'extras' and who will be staying at home so lots of Scottish, Welsh, and Irish players can play instead?

Why talk about 5 years ago? or even 4,3,2 years ago......I mean there has been at least one Lions tour done and dusted in that time!

Why talk about 5 years ago? Because it shows the achievements and abilities of players available to the Lions.

Can you provide a small list of English players who will be the 'extras' on this Lions tour and who will be touring ahead of them? It might help to really think about how likely it is that the Lions will be dominated by the Welsh with only a handful of English players as their tackle bag holders.

I don't know what you mean by 'extras'. But for me if 90% were English by right then I would be behind them 100% of the way

Is it too early to start naming our 1st 15 ?

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Biltong, I was going to ask if you thought Coetzee and du Plessis (both returning home) would be in contention, but I guess you know as much as we do. Esterhuizen is a huge centre but surely won't take the jersey from de Allende, and is he capped?

I assume you are talking about Bismarck?

Coetzee could well be, Bismarck no chance, we have younger hookers in form, Malcolm Marx and Bongi Mbonambi are the incumbents, then you still have Akker v d Merwe in great form.

Jacques du Plessis (lock / back-row), from Montpellier. Has to be in contention, quality player. Bismarck is too old...

Didn't quite recall the shoulder charge from Farrell, I think I remember now that you mention it

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Biltong, I was going to ask if you thought Coetzee and du Plessis (both returning home) would be in contention, but I guess you know as much as we do. Esterhuizen is a huge centre but surely won't take the jersey from de Allende, and is he capped?

I assume you are talking about Bismarck?

Coetzee could well be, Bismarck no chance, we have younger hookers in form, Malcolm Marx and Bongi Mbonambi are the incumbents, then you still have Akker v d Merwe in great form.

Jacques du Plessis (lock / back-row), from Montpellier. Has to be in contention, quality player. Bismarck is too old...

Didn't quite recall the shoulder charge from Farrell, I think I remember now that you mention it

Don’f know about Jacques, haven’t heard anything , but just read Etzebeth will be out for many weeks, so you never know

flyhalffactory wrote:

themoondude wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

themoondude wrote:Yes my opinion. What's yours?

If only a few 'extra' English players are going to tour, it might be a good idea to make a list from the group of players who have won three six nations titles, one autumn nations cup, and reached a world cup final in the last 5 years. Who will be the 'extras' and who will be staying at home so lots of Scottish, Welsh, and Irish players can play instead?

Why talk about 5 years ago? or even 4,3,2 years ago......I mean there has been at least one Lions tour done and dusted in that time!

Why talk about 5 years ago? Because it shows the achievements and abilities of players available to the Lions.

Can you provide a small list of English players who will be the 'extras' on this Lions tour and who will be touring ahead of them? It might help to really think about how likely it is that the Lions will be dominated by the Welsh with only a handful of English players as their tackle bag holders.

I don't know what you mean by 'extras'. But for me if 90% were English by right then I would be behind them 100% of the way

This is where 'extras' came from. I thought you were supporting the idea that England would only have a 'few extras'.

123456789. wrote:One would bet on a squad that would reflect the Six Nations. A predominance of Welsh players, the champions; with a smattering of Scots and Irish with a few English extras.

Unfortunately not everyone gets behind the Lions 100% which is why there have been problems for years. Too many people use it as a convenient way to point score between the home nations. The media know this and exploit it as much as they dare. They've had to rein it in because of Gatland's winning record but given half the chance they would stoke up a debate about ending the Lions. Nationalism generates emotions which can be exploited by media discussions and sport is no different to politics in this regard. I've noticed a trend of rugby 'fans' not really being fans of rugby. I think they must come to the game from watching social media and don't understand what rugby is all about. The Lions is rugby at its best. The people who travel around the world supporting the Lions aren't the ones adding fuel to the fire started by journalists but they're a loud minority who would rather see others fail than be part of something successful.

If anyone puts money on more Scottish players on tour than English as per the suggestion they've thrown their money away. They'd be better donating it to charity.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Not surprised with that coaching line up.

Gatland ball is so last decade.

themoondude wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

themoondude wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

themoondude wrote:Yes my opinion. What's yours?

If only a few 'extra' English players are going to tour, it might be a good idea to make a list from the group of players who have won three six nations titles, one autumn nations cup, and reached a world cup final in the last 5 years. Who will be the 'extras' and who will be staying at home so lots of Scottish, Welsh, and Irish players can play instead?

Why talk about 5 years ago? or even 4,3,2 years ago......I mean there has been at least one Lions tour done and dusted in that time!

Why talk about 5 years ago? Because it shows the achievements and abilities of players available to the Lions.

Can you provide a small list of English players who will be the 'extras' on this Lions tour and who will be touring ahead of them? It might help to really think about how likely it is that the Lions will be dominated by the Welsh with only a handful of English players as their tackle bag holders.

I don't know what you mean by 'extras'. But for me if 90% were English by right then I would be behind them 100% of the way

This is where 'extras' came from. I thought you were supporting the idea that England would only have a 'few extras'.

123456789. wrote:One would bet on a squad that would reflect the Six Nations. A predominance of Welsh players, the champions; with a smattering of Scots and Irish with a few English extras.  

Unfortunately not everyone gets behind the Lions 100% which is why there have been problems for years. Too many people use it as a convenient way to point score between the home nations. The media know this and exploit it as much as they dare. They've had to rein it in because of Gatland's winning record but given half the chance they would stoke up a debate about ending the Lions. Nationalism generates emotions which can be exploited by media discussions and sport is no different to politics in this regard. I've noticed a trend of rugby 'fans' not really being fans of rugby. I think they must come to the game from watching social media and don't understand what rugby is all about. The Lions is rugby at its best. The people who travel around the world supporting the Lions aren't the ones adding fuel to the fire started by journalists but they're a loud minority who would rather see others fail than be part of something successful.

If anyone puts money on more Scottish players on tour than English as per the suggestion they've thrown their money away. They'd be better donating it to charity.

Well said. To your last point, I really don't care who is selected as long as they are the right players who can play together and win. As opposed to simply an all-star team.

I enjoy the Lions tours thoroughly. I do admit one aspect of the Lions from which I derive a great and frankly perverse enjoyment is seeing the hyper-nationalists completely marginalised and almost put back under the muddy rock from whence they sprang. Most of them are not really Rugby fans, I have to believe.

British and Irish Lions 2021: English may miss out but more Scots on trip hints Gatland - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56731932



Sounds as if there will be 2 distinct bubbles for the players as well from this. Gatland following Woodward lead. Doubt those bubbles will be as strict as Englands during the 6Ns, no one else seemed to follow that players couldn't mingle outside of training.

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Biltong, I was going to ask if you thought Coetzee and du Plessis (both returning home) would be in contention, but I guess you know as much as we do. Esterhuizen is a huge centre but surely won't take the jersey from de Allende, and is he capped?

I assume you are talking about Bismarck?

Coetzee could well be, Bismarck no chance, we have younger hookers in form, Malcolm Marx and Bongi Mbonambi are the incumbents, then you still have Akker v d Merwe in great form.

Jacques du Plessis (lock / back-row), from Montpellier. Has to be in contention, quality player. Bismarck is too old...

Didn't quite recall the shoulder charge from Farrell, I think I remember now that you mention it

Don’f know about Jacques, haven’t heard anything , but just read Etzebeth will be out for many weeks, so you never know

He seems a like-for-like with Pieter-Steph du Toit. The lock forward depth you guys have is nuts.

Not sure my factual post about lock forwards captaining the Lions against South Africa should have been deleted

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Biltong, I was going to ask if you thought Coetzee and du Plessis (both returning home) would be in contention, but I guess you know as much as we do. Esterhuizen is a huge centre but surely won't take the jersey from de Allende, and is he capped?

I assume you are talking about Bismarck?

Coetzee could well be, Bismarck no chance, we have younger hookers in form, Malcolm Marx and Bongi Mbonambi are the incumbents, then you still have Akker v d Merwe in great form.

Jacques du Plessis (lock / back-row), from Montpellier. Has to be in contention, quality player. Bismarck is too old...

Didn't quite recall the shoulder charge from Farrell, I think I remember now that you mention it

Don’f know about Jacques, haven’t heard anything , but just read Etzebeth will be out for many weeks, so you never know

He seems a like-for-like with Pieter-Steph du Toit. The lock forward depth you guys have is nuts.

Yeah, we are fortunate i that regard, I think he is a better offloader than PSDT, especially due to his ability to remain up in the contact situation

Oh. I too have been censored, doesn't say why though? Assuming its to do with the togetherness of the Lions meaning we can't point out what has happened in the past or even what Gatland has said in a linked article? Can we please remove any mention of the rubbish English 6 nations too please?

Gregor Townsend - "There was a core group that most of us agreed on – maybe 50-60 per cent of players"

Lions initial squad meeting. Sounds like they all put in who they thought and seemed to agree on over half the squad. 40% still up for grabs, he says.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/we-discussed-57-players-the-door-is-never-closed-and-it-is-going-to-be-interesting-where-the-lions-are-with-selection-townsend/?fbclid=IwAR20ttHstt-h6g6NyBm3MJYF0dmarBdQx6wXiOeveNn0xGrTbCm2ztHCsX0

Not sure if this comment will remain as previous ones on Gatland's comments didn't, but it sounds like the doors open for Underhill from the comments on injury. I am worried by the talk of Jones as captain, unless he's tour captain as there are a fair few better locks and his captaincy is being overegged.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure if this comment will remain as previous ones on Gatland's comments didn't, but it sounds like the doors open for Underhill from the comments on injury. I am worried by the talk of Jones as captain, unless he's tour captain as there are a fair few better locks and his captaincy is being overegged.

You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, and I would imagine you’d want to be able to voice your opinion without criticism or rebuke. But then so are the Lions selectors, but will they be afforded the same freedoms???

I'm not bothered about people disagreeing with me whatsoever Oracle, its a discussion forum. There are some here who do want to be able to say anything and expect people to remain quiet if they don't agree, i'm not one of them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not bothered about people disagreeing with me whatsoever Oracle, its a discussion forum. There are some here who do want to be able to say anything and expect people to remain quiet if they don't agree, i'm not one of them.

You don’t want AWJ as captain, and that’s your right and freedom to express that opinion.  I’m not going to argue with you because it is an opinion and you are not mentioning or stating facts, so there is nothing to argue over.  My question is whether you will accept the opinion of the Lions selectors, experienced coaches in their own right, if they decide amongst themselves to choose AWJ as captain?  After all I’m guessing they are far more knowledgeable and experienced in elite rugby than you are (complete guess!).  So if it was to happen do you accept their decision, or do you moan about it all tour?  Genuine question.

“I’ve got to be conscious of the fact that we still don’t know what the situation is with PRL,” said Gatland. “We understand about the Premiership final, but we hope to be together for a couple of weeks of preparation leading into the warm-up game against Japan. If some of those players are not available for that preparation time then when we are doing our final selection, with the amount of competition, unfortunately some of those players may miss out.

“What we are asking for is, can they be released a little bit earlier, when they’ve finished their club campaign? I’m just hoping we can get some resolution and common sense will prevail, so we don’t have to go through the squad and start looking at 50-50 calls on players and thinking, ‘Well, he’s based in England so unfortunately he’s not going to be available to us’.

“We are looking at going to Jersey for a two-week camp so the last thing I’d want is for players to miss out on the tour because of [being unavailable for] that.”

Quotes from the Guardian. Trying to second guess form it's likely that Exeter and Bristol will make the final, pretty even though in the top 4 or 5 though this season. Potentially the players who could be ruled out are:

Bristol - Sheedy, Sinckler, Earl, Malins
Exeter - Hogg, Slade, Cowan-Dickie, Francis, Hill, Simmonds
Sale - Curry
Harlequins - MArler, Smith, Dombrandt, Care
Northampton - Bigger

I can't seriously see him leaving some of those players behind.

I also don't view AWJ as the Lions Captain. His form is quite simply not good enough. I also don't expect Gatland to make him the Lions Captain - he's not the romantic type given his previous in 2013 with O'Driscoll. Jones will certainly tour as his input will be invaluable, but as a player there are certainly better locks available.

Gatland wants to win, and will want the best players, not the best based on past glories. Farrell will be lucky to tour, as will Daly. Personally I don't think either are worthy of a place on the plane. Both Vunipolas are vulnerable too, especially given the recent comments about good players not being certain to go on tour.

If Gatland does elect AWJ as captain, then of course I will support the decisions because it's the Lions. But I don't reckon he will.

I

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not bothered about people disagreeing with me whatsoever Oracle, its a discussion forum. There are some here who do want to be able to say anything and expect people to remain quiet if they don't agree, i'm not one of them.

You don’t want AWJ as captain, and that’s your right and freedom to express that opinion.  I’m not going to argue with you because it is an opinion and you are not mentioning or stating facts, so there is nothing to argue over.  My question is whether you will accept the opinion of the Lions selectors, experienced coaches in their own right, if they decide amongst themselves to choose AWJ as captain?  After all I’m guessing they are far more knowledgeable and experienced in elite rugby than you are (complete guess!).  So if it was to happen do you accept their decision, or do you moan about it all tour?  Genuine question.

Well again, it's a discussion forum so if there's something I don't agree with I'll probably raise it. If Jones makes the team and underperforms (or as you say I perceive he underperforms) I'm going to say it. As an example I think Eddie Jones is a terrific coach, so does that mean that I'll sit and keep quiet about things I disagree with? No it doesn't.

.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not bothered about people disagreeing with me whatsoever Oracle, its a discussion forum. There are some here who do want to be able to say anything and expect people to remain quiet if they don't agree, i'm not one of them.

You don’t want AWJ as captain, and that’s your right and freedom to express that opinion.  I’m not going to argue with you because it is an opinion and you are not mentioning or stating facts, so there is nothing to argue over.  My question is whether you will accept the opinion of the Lions selectors, experienced coaches in their own right, if they decide amongst themselves to choose AWJ as captain?  After all I’m guessing they are far more knowledgeable and experienced in elite rugby than you are (complete guess!).  So if it was to happen do you accept their decision, or do you moan about it all tour?  Genuine question.

Well again, it's a discussion forum so if there's something I don't agree with I'll probably raise it. If Jones makes the team and underperforms (or as you say I perceive he underperforms) I'm going to say it. As an example I think Eddie Jones is a terrific coach, so does that mean that I'll sit and keep quiet about things I disagree with? No it doesn't.

Well it’s gonna be a damn miserable tour (again) if we all moan all day about players who we don’t agree with being selected.

Mr Bounce wrote:I also don't view AWJ as the Lions Captain. His form is quite simply not good enough. I also don't expect Gatland to make him the Lions Captain - he's not the romantic type given his previous in 2013 with O'Driscoll. Jones will certainly tour as his input will be invaluable, but as a player there are certainly better locks available.

Gatland wants to win, and will want the best players, not the best based on past glories. Farrell will be lucky to tour, as will Daly. Personally I don't think either are worthy of a place on the plane. Both Vunipolas are vulnerable too, especially given the recent comments about good players not being certain to go on tour.

If Gatland does elect AWJ as captain, then of course I will support the decisions because it's the Lions. But I don't reckon he will.

I

I disagree that his form is not good enough.  Where did you get that from?  He was one of our best players in the 6N and we won it!  He was top B&I lock for tackles made.  No other lock came close.  He was 3rd in the B&I for tackles made behind his countrymen Tipuric and Navidi, and 4th overall when you add in Olivon from France.  He had 2 missed tackles, yet some of his Lions competition such as Itoje and Henderson missed 5 and 7 respectively. He as top lock for dominant tackles in the B&I teams.  No other lock comes close.  Didn’t concede as many turnovers as a number of his lock competitors.  Nowhere near the penalties conceded of Beirne and Itoje. Made more yards than Itoje and Jonny Gray, and only 5 less than Henderson, etc, etc. I know people will stay stats show what you want.  But to say he was not in form is crazy!

Shall I expect to never again see you write any criticism of a selection or tactic again then Oracle?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shall I expect to never again see you write any criticism of a selection or tactic again then Oracle?

I will if you will.

Don’t think I’ve ever criticised a selection. I’ve defended plenty, but not criticised those chosen.

The Oracle wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I also don't view AWJ as the Lions Captain. His form is quite simply not good enough. I also don't expect Gatland to make him the Lions Captain - he's not the romantic type given his previous in 2013 with O'Driscoll. Jones will certainly tour as his input will be invaluable, but as a player there are certainly better locks available.

Gatland wants to win, and will want the best players, not the best based on past glories. Farrell will be lucky to tour, as will Daly. Personally I don't think either are worthy of a place on the plane. Both Vunipolas are vulnerable too, especially given the recent comments about good players not being certain to go on tour.

If Gatland does elect AWJ as captain, then of course I will support the decisions because it's the Lions. But I don't reckon he will.

I

I disagree that his form is not good enough.  Where did you get that from?  He was one of our best players in the 6N and we won it!  He was top B&I lock for tackles made.  No other lock came close.  He was 3rd in the B&I for tackles made behind his countrymen Tipuric and Navidi, and 4th overall when you add in Olivon from France.  He had 2 missed tackles, yet some of his Lions competition such as Itoje and Henderson missed 5 and 7 respectively. He as top lock for dominant tackles in the B&I teams.  No other lock comes close.  Didn’t concede as many turnovers as a number of his lock competitors.  Nowhere near the penalties conceded of Beirne and Itoje. Made more yards than Itoje and Jonny Gray, and only 5 less than Henderson, etc, etc. I know people will stay stats show what you want.  But to say he was not in form is crazy!

Well, do not expect many people to like what you have posted here Oracle, but you cannot deny the stats you have put up here. I was not aware of those stats, yet it will not stop people disagreeing.

For me AWJ is a must for the captain of the Lions, I cannot think of anyone else who could do it better.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shall I expect to never again see you write any criticism of a selection or tactic again then Oracle?

I will if you will.  

Don’t think I’ve ever criticised a selection. I’ve defended plenty, but not criticised those chosen.

I will continue to criticise players performances when I think they've played poorly, criticise selections that I don't agree with and criticise tactics I think are wrong. Just wondering if you'd stay quiet as the coaches for Wales and Lions are professionals etc. People can always feel free to voice their disagreement.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I also don't view AWJ as the Lions Captain. His form is quite simply not good enough. I also don't expect Gatland to make him the Lions Captain - he's not the romantic type given his previous in 2013 with O'Driscoll. Jones will certainly tour as his input will be invaluable, but as a player there are certainly better locks available.

Gatland wants to win, and will want the best players, not the best based on past glories. Farrell will be lucky to tour, as will Daly. Personally I don't think either are worthy of a place on the plane. Both Vunipolas are vulnerable too, especially given the recent comments about good players not being certain to go on tour.

If Gatland does elect AWJ as captain, then of course I will support the decisions because it's the Lions. But I don't reckon he will.

I

I disagree that his form is not good enough.  Where did you get that from?  He was one of our best players in the 6N and we won it!  He was top B&I lock for tackles made.  No other lock came close.  He was 3rd in the B&I for tackles made behind his countrymen Tipuric and Navidi, and 4th overall when you add in Olivon from France.  He had 2 missed tackles, yet some of his Lions competition such as Itoje and Henderson missed 5 and 7 respectively. He as top lock for dominant tackles in the B&I teams.  No other lock comes close.  Didn’t concede as many turnovers as a number of his lock competitors.  Nowhere near the penalties conceded of Beirne and Itoje. Made more yards than Itoje and Jonny Gray, and only 5 less than Henderson, etc, etc. I know people will stay stats show what you want.  But to say he was not in form is crazy!

Well, do not expect many people to like what you have posted here Oracle, but you cannot deny the stats you have put up here. I was not aware of those stats, yet it will not stop people disagreeing.

For me AWJ is a must for the captain of the Lions, I cannot think of anyone else who could do it better.

Why is he a must for captain?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is he a must for captain?

Because he is the best candidate. Unless you can suggest a better one ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is he a must for captain?

Because he is the best candidate. Unless you can suggest a better one ?

I would start with my preferred team and work from there, Jones wouldn't start for me so in that respect theres 15 guys I would prefer. Why is he a must for captain for you?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is he a must for captain?

Because he is the best candidate. Unless you can suggest a better one ?

I would start with my preferred team and work from there, Jones wouldn't start for me so in that respect theres 15 guys I would prefer. Why is he a must for captain for you?

Why are you asking me the same question again. I have said he is the best candidate for the job.

Also, you look at the stats that Oracle has put up, and no other 2nd row gets close to him.

What 15 captains would you put ahead of him ? Should be interesting.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shall I expect to never again see you write any criticism of a selection or tactic again then Oracle?

I will if you will.  

Don’t think I’ve ever criticised a selection. I’ve defended plenty, but not criticised those chosen.

I will continue to criticise players performances when I think they've played poorly, criticise selections that I don't agree with and criticise tactics I think are wrong. Just wondering if you'd stay quiet as the coaches for Wales and Lions are professionals etc. People can always feel free to voice their disagreement.

I will criticise individual performances. Never said I wouldn’t. I won’t criticise selections as I believe the Lions coaches are better qualified than me to make that call, and they have more ‘inside info’.

Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

I like Itoje. He’s an in your face menace. But that went against him this 6N. He needs to be a bit more subtle as he’s become a penalty machine. And in a tight tournament that could be the difference between winning and losing. He seems to spend more time messing with people than playing rugby. Just needs to balance it a bit better, for me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

So you would pick players who have either never been a captain, or an international captain, or get on the wrong side of the ref whilst being a captain, over a player whose stats surpassed every other player in the same position in the 6N, and is a 6N winning captain, with years of experience at being a captain, who was the last Lions captain, and has achieved a hell of a lot more at international level than any other captain from GB and Ireland ?

OK, fair enough.

Thank God you are not in charge.

Same with tactics too Oracle.

Sorry LD you'd changed your questions while I was writing my response. My point on 15 better was based on the fact that Jones is probably sat in the stands for me so clearly it needs to be those starters. For point of ref you've had some of those in my previous but here you go, there's a list of caveats on that ie how things go in the x number of matches to go before that first test.

Marler LCD Furling
Itoje Ryan
Ritchie Curry
Faletau/Vunipola
Williams Farrell
May Henshaw probably North Watson
Hogg

Forgot about Higgs credentials actually, he'd put his hand up im sure.

The Oracle wrote:I like Itoje. He’s an in your face menace. But that went against him this 6N. He needs to be a bit more subtle as he’s become a penalty machine. And in a tight tournament that could be the difference between winning and losing. He seems to spend more time messing with people than playing rugby. Just needs to balance it a bit better, for me.

Yes, I agree, he is a massive talent, but he needs to focus on the rugby, and forget the nonsense. A starter with AWJ for me, although unless he starts behaving could be replaced by one of the Irish second rowers, but not because they have more talent, but because the Boks will not wind them up as much.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

So you would pick players who have either never been a captain, or an international captain, or get on the wrong side of the ref whilst being a captain, over a player whose stats surpassed every other player in the same position in the 6N, and is a 6N winning captain, with years of experience at being a captain, who was the last Lions captain, and has achieved a hell of a lot more at international level than any other captain from GB and Ireland ?

OK, fair enough.

Thank God you are not in charge.

I don't see the need to weaken the team by picking a captain before hand. Especially one who when he had the chance to shine and lead from the front against France, he visibly shrank, allowed his teams mates to play loosely and lose discipline. and also give away the pen leading to France's winner by flopping off his feet. That last point I think had more to do with exhaustion as much as anything, another point that I want my captain to remain on the pitch and not be too knackered to make good decisiosns.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same with tactics too Oracle.

Sorry LD you'd changed your questions while I was writing my response. My point on 15 better was based on the fact that Jones is probably sat in the stands for me so clearly it needs to be those starters. For point of ref you've had some of those in my previous but here you go, there's a list of caveats on that ie how things go in the x number of matches to go before that first test.

Marler LCD Furling
Itoje Ryan
Ritchie Curry
Faletau/Vunipola
Williams Farrell
May Henshaw probably North Watson
Hogg

Forgot about Higgs credentials actually, he'd put his hand up im sure.

I dont think LCD will be picked ahead of Ken Owens. AWJ will be in the team, as will Hamish Watson. I think you might be a little disappointed as an English fan if you think the players you have picked will start.

As an England fan I doubt any of them are going to be playing for us in the summer, it'll be more a development squad akin to the Saxon's I'd imagine LD.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

So you would pick players who have either never been a captain, or an international captain, or get on the wrong side of the ref whilst being a captain, over a player whose stats surpassed every other player in the same position in the 6N, and is a 6N winning captain, with years of experience at being a captain, who was the last Lions captain, and has achieved a hell of a lot more at international level than any other captain from GB and Ireland ?

OK, fair enough.

Thank God you are not in charge.

I don't see the need to weaken the team by picking a captain before hand. Especially one who when he had the chance to shine and lead from the front against France, he visibly shrank, allowed his teams mates to play loosely and lose discipline. and also give away the pen leading to France's winner by flopping off his feet. That last point I think had more to do with exhaustion as much as anything, another point that I want my captain to remain on the pitch and not be too knackered to make good decisiosns.

I am sure Cory Hill gave that penalty away.

I think AWJ will be Tour Captain, much like Warburton was last tour. It doesn't mean he will start or feature in the Tests, but that is what I think Gatland will do. It was also noteworthy how Gatland used AWJ last tour, in the Tests.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

So you would pick players who have either never been a captain, or an international captain, or get on the wrong side of the ref whilst being a captain, over a player whose stats surpassed every other player in the same position in the 6N, and is a 6N winning captain, with years of experience at being a captain, who was the last Lions captain, and has achieved a hell of a lot more at international level than any other captain from GB and Ireland ?

OK, fair enough.

Thank God you are not in charge.

I don't see the need to weaken the team by picking a captain before hand. Especially one who when he had the chance to shine and lead from the front against France, he visibly shrank, allowed his teams mates to play loosely and lose discipline. and also give away the pen leading to France's winner by flopping off his feet. That last point I think had more to do with exhaustion as much as anything, another point that I want my captain to remain on the pitch and not be too knackered to make good decisiosns.

OK, lets hear it from you then, who would you have as captain ? Let's have a name.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

So you would pick players who have either never been a captain, or an international captain, or get on the wrong side of the ref whilst being a captain, over a player whose stats surpassed every other player in the same position in the 6N, and is a 6N winning captain, with years of experience at being a captain, who was the last Lions captain, and has achieved a hell of a lot more at international level than any other captain from GB and Ireland ?

OK, fair enough.

Thank God you are not in charge.

I don't see the need to weaken the team by picking a captain before hand. Especially one who when he had the chance to shine and lead from the front against France, he visibly shrank, allowed his teams mates to play loosely and lose discipline. and also give away the pen leading to France's winner by flopping off his feet. That last point I think had more to do with exhaustion as much as anything, another point that I want my captain to remain on the pitch and not be too knackered to make good decisiosns.

OK, lets hear it from you then, who would you have as captain ? Let's have a name.

You have already quoted me in the response. 'Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.'

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same with tactics too Oracle.

Sorry LD you'd changed your questions while I was writing my response. My point on 15 better was based on the fact that Jones is probably sat in the stands for me so clearly it needs to be those starters. For point of ref you've had some of those in my previous but here you go, there's a list of caveats on that ie how things go in the x number of matches to go before that first test.

Marler LCD Furling
Itoje Ryan
Ritchie Curry
Faletau/Vunipola
Williams Farrell
May Henshaw probably North Watson
Hogg

Forgot about Higgs credentials actually, he'd put his hand up im sure.

I dont think LCD will be picked ahead of Ken Owens. AWJ will be in the team, as will Hamish Watson. I think you might be a little disappointed as an English fan if you think the players you have picked will start.

Watson may well be in the team but that simply means Curry playing at 6 instead of 7, his peak performances surpass those of anyone else available. Marler if he makes himself available starts as does LCD who is the best set piece hooker available, have him alongside a competent loosehead at scrum time and he's a big step up on Owens in that regard.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You have already quoted me in the response. 'Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent.

But not captains.

No 7&1/2 wrote: I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row,Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice.

Again, not captains.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to.

A captain who cannot get on with the officials, and gets riled up too often.

So you would go with all those potential captains and a captain who is not very good at being one, and is not a guaranteed starter, over a seasoned international captain who was statistically head and shoulders above all other locks in the 6N, who has captained the Lions in the past, and has won multiple 6N as a captian.

Fair play to you.