Brexit

First topic message reminder :

"man that negotiated the Australia deal with the EU" - Who is this man? I only ask because Australia don't have a deal with the EU; they are, however, in the process of negotiating one.

P&O ferries suspends all services as it plans on sacking 800 workers to replace them with cheap foreign labour.

So much for Brexit stopping this from happening. Seems like leaving the EU and losing regulations protecting workers rights wasnt a great idea after all.

I'm sure there'll be a half-hearted attempt to boycott P&O which'll be forgotten as soon as they drop their prices for a week.

Samo wrote:P&O ferries suspends all services as it plans on sacking 800 workers to replace them with cheap foreign labour.

So much for Brexit stopping this from happening. Seems like leaving the EU and losing regulations protecting workers rights wasnt a great idea after all.

What regulations protecting workers' rights have been lost since leaving the EU, and how do these apply to the scenario described?

I believe any such regulations derived from EU law e.g. the Working Time Directive were retained after leaving; in most areas, of course, UK law already went further than EU law. But I'm sure you have some examples to correct me on this point.

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:P&O ferries suspends all services as it plans on sacking 800 workers to replace them with cheap foreign labour.

So much for Brexit stopping this from happening. Seems like leaving the EU and losing regulations protecting workers rights wasnt a great idea after all.

What regulations protecting workers' rights have been lost since leaving the EU, and how do these apply to the scenario described?

I believe any such regulations derived from EU law e.g. the Working Time Directive were retained after leaving; in most areas, of course, UK law already went further than EU law. But I'm sure you have some examples to correct me on this point.

There hasn't been the loss of any regulations protecting workers' rights, but that's not the real issue here.  Instead, this is an example of how yet another one of the claims put forward by the leave campaign was not accurate.  Brexit was supposed to deliver a high-skilled, high-wage economy in which British workers were no longer going to be undercut by the mass hiring of low paid agency workers (whether from the EU or otherwise - although Farage and co were obsessed with the idea of Eastern European fruit pickers).

superflyweight wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:P&O ferries suspends all services as it plans on sacking 800 workers to replace them with cheap foreign labour.

So much for Brexit stopping this from happening. Seems like leaving the EU and losing regulations protecting workers rights wasnt a great idea after all.

What regulations protecting workers' rights have been lost since leaving the EU, and how do these apply to the scenario described?

I believe any such regulations derived from EU law e.g. the Working Time Directive were retained after leaving; in most areas, of course, UK law already went further than EU law. But I'm sure you have some examples to correct me on this point.

There hasn't been the loss of any regulations protecting workers' rights, but that's not the real issue here.  Instead, this is an example of how yet another one of the claims put forward by the leave campaign was not accurate.  Brexit was supposed to deliver a high-skilled, high-wage economy in which British workers were no longer going to be undercut by the mass hiring of low paid agency workers (whether from the EU or otherwise - although Farage and co were obsessed with the idea of Eastern European fruit pickers).

Also worth pointing out none of the French workers lost their jobs, although I'm sure thats just a coincidence.

Another coincidence is P&O citing "post Brexit cross-channel red tape" as a factor in the business downturn. Again, I'm sure thats just a coincidence.

superflyweight wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:P&O ferries suspends all services as it plans on sacking 800 workers to replace them with cheap foreign labour.

So much for Brexit stopping this from happening. Seems like leaving the EU and losing regulations protecting workers rights wasnt a great idea after all.

What regulations protecting workers' rights have been lost since leaving the EU, and how do these apply to the scenario described?

I believe any such regulations derived from EU law e.g. the Working Time Directive were retained after leaving; in most areas, of course, UK law already went further than EU law. But I'm sure you have some examples to correct me on this point.

There hasn't been the loss of any regulations protecting workers' rights, but that's not the real issue here.  Instead, this is an example of how yet another one of the claims put forward by the leave campaign was not accurate.  Brexit was supposed to deliver a high-skilled, high-wage economy in which British workers were no longer going to be undercut by the mass hiring of low paid agency workers (whether from the EU or otherwise - although Farage and co were obsessed with the idea of Eastern European fruit pickers).

Valid points but Duty's post in response to the highlighted.

Soul Requiem wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:P&O ferries suspends all services as it plans on sacking 800 workers to replace them with cheap foreign labour.

So much for Brexit stopping this from happening. Seems like leaving the EU and losing regulations protecting workers rights wasnt a great idea after all.

What regulations protecting workers' rights have been lost since leaving the EU, and how do these apply to the scenario described?

I believe any such regulations derived from EU law e.g. the Working Time Directive were retained after leaving; in most areas, of course, UK law already went further than EU law. But I'm sure you have some examples to correct me on this point.

There hasn't been the loss of any regulations protecting workers' rights, but that's not the real issue here.  Instead, this is an example of how yet another one of the claims put forward by the leave campaign was not accurate.  Brexit was supposed to deliver a high-skilled, high-wage economy in which British workers were no longer going to be undercut by the mass hiring of low paid agency workers (whether from the EU or otherwise - although Farage and co were obsessed with the idea of Eastern European fruit pickers).

Valid points but Duty's post in response to the highlighted.

I know, but I think focussing on that issue is a bit of a red herring. This could have happened whether we left or not, but one of the supposed benefits of leaving was that this wouldn't happen.

superflyweight wrote:

I know, but I think focussing on that issue is a bit of a red herring.  This could have happened whether we left or not, but one of the supposed benefits of leaving was that this wouldn't happen.  

It is and it isn't. With regards to P&O staff it couldn't matter less, they've been screwed and that cannot be brushed under the carpet. On the other hand though misinformation of any kind needs to be challenged.

Soul Requiem wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

I know, but I think focussing on that issue is a bit of a red herring.  This could have happened whether we left or not, but one of the supposed benefits of leaving was that this wouldn't happen.  

It is and it isn't. With regards to P&O staff it couldn't matter less, they've been screwed and that cannot be brushed under the carpet. On the other hand though misinformation of any kind needs to be challenged.

This amount of irony is head-exploding.

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

I know, but I think focussing on that issue is a bit of a red herring.  This could have happened whether we left or not, but one of the supposed benefits of leaving was that this wouldn't happen.  

It is and it isn't. With regards to P&O staff it couldn't matter less, they've been screwed and that cannot be brushed under the carpet. On the other hand though misinformation of any kind needs to be challenged.

This amount of irony is head-exploding.

I don't always agree with Soul, but I don't know of him continually posting lies and misinformation, as Samo frequently does. Am I misguided on this?

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

I know, but I think focussing on that issue is a bit of a red herring.  This could have happened whether we left or not, but one of the supposed benefits of leaving was that this wouldn't happen.  

It is and it isn't. With regards to P&O staff it couldn't matter less, they've been screwed and that cannot be brushed under the carpet. On the other hand though misinformation of any kind needs to be challenged.

This amount of irony is head-exploding.

I don't always agree with Soul, but I don't know of him continually posting lies and misinformation, as Samo frequently does. Am I misguided on this?

It's the irony of a die-hard Brexiter complaining about misinformation. The passage of Brexit was based on lies and misinformation. Surely even you can admit that.

Of course I'm not saying that people should post misinformation, but people in glass houses etc.

Am I a die hard brexiteer? Or are you just generalising that all Brexit voters are the same?

Rees-Mogg saying that enforcing the governments own deal - in relation to incoming border checks on goods from the EU - would be an act of self harm.

Anyone willing to admit they were conned yet?

Bloody French, how dare them impose checks on people travelling from Dover, causing queues of up to 4 hours. Didnt they get the memo that was just supposed to be “Project Fear”?

How dare a sovereign nation control their borders whilst full EU members.

I was waiting for you to blame French understaffing on Brexit.

There werent any understaffing problems before we left. Funny that.

Its incredible to see people try and blame an EU country for treating a 3rd country who chose to be a 3rd country as a 3rd country.

Bloody French. They should be doing more to accompdate us. Who won the bloody war anyway?

A comment of no substance whatsoever... Again.

Instead of trotting out the same nonsense, try looking into the actual reasons for the delays. Assuming Brexit is to blame for everything doesn't wash any more.

Samo wrote:There werent any understaffing problems before we left. Funny that.

Eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36877177

2016 - The Port of Dover authority said the French border control booths in Dover were "seriously understaffed" on Friday night, when problems began.

Long queues at Dover happen every year, Brexit or no Brexit. Almost as though the common factor to it isn't Brexit.

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:There werent any understaffing problems before we left. Funny that.

Eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36877177

2016 - The Port of Dover authority said the French border control booths in Dover were "seriously understaffed" on Friday night, when problems began.

Long queues at Dover happen every year, Brexit or no Brexit. Almost as though the common factor to it isn't Brexit.

And if you believe that, ladies and gentlemen, you'll believe anything.

Faces are red, passports are blue. You, over there. Back in the queue.

I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

So understaffing in other words.

That would be a yes, then.

Great input again, it's as if these problems haven't always existed. If I shout Brexit loud enough it must be true.

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:There werent any understaffing problems before we left. Funny that.

Eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36877177

2016 - The Port of Dover authority said the French border control booths in Dover were "seriously understaffed" on Friday night, when problems began.

Long queues at Dover happen every year, Brexit or no Brexit. Almost as though the common factor to it isn't Brexit.

And if you believe that, ladies and gentlemen, you'll believe anything.

Faces are red, passports are blue. You, over there. Back in the queue.

Yes, because this has been happening since (at least) the 1980s. If this were a new problem, you might be able to blame Brexit.

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

All passports were checked going into France from the UK pre-Brexit, as the UK was never in Schengen.

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

All passports were checked going into France from the UK pre-Brexit, as the UK was never in Schengen.

Having made the crossing a few times before, this is just rubbish. Either that, or you class a quick wave as a check. All passports now have to be stamped. A huge difference.

Fewer half-truths, please.

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

All passports were checked going into France from the UK pre-Brexit, as the UK was never in Schengen.

Having made the crossing a few times before, this is just rubbish. Either that, or you class a quick wave as a check. All passports now have to be stamped. A huge difference.

Fewer half-truths, please.

You didn't mention stamps in your original post, which will soon be phased out in any case.

It doesn't negate the central point that long queues at Dover have been happening for decades, so it isn't related to Brexit.

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

All passports were checked going into France from the UK pre-Brexit, as the UK was never in Schengen.

Having made the crossing a few times before, this is just rubbish. Either that, or you class a quick wave as a check. All passports now have to be stamped. A huge difference.

Fewer half-truths, please.

You didn't mention stamps in your original post, which will soon be phased out in any case.

It doesn't negate the central point that long queues at Dover have been happening for decades, so it isn't related to Brexit.

You knew exactly what you were doing, equating checks now to checks then, knowing full well that the checks now are much more thorough and take much longer.

Absolutely textbook Brexit, that.

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I've lived in Kent my entire life and have routinely been affected by traffic on the M25 for over 25 years now. This happens all the time and whilst Brexit is a convenient excuse for many it isn't the reason for the delays. It's the beginning of the summer holidays so the understaffing of the border on the French side creates issues.

So the checking of all passports, as opposed to the checking of barely any passports, has no effect at all? Are you really that blinkered?

All passports were checked going into France from the UK pre-Brexit, as the UK was never in Schengen.

Having made the crossing a few times before, this is just rubbish. Either that, or you class a quick wave as a check. All passports now have to be stamped. A huge difference.

Fewer half-truths, please.

You didn't mention stamps in your original post, which will soon be phased out in any case.

It doesn't negate the central point that long queues at Dover have been happening for decades, so it isn't related to Brexit.

You knew exactly what you were doing, equating checks now to checks then, knowing full well that the checks now are much more thorough and take much longer.

Absolutely textbook Brexit, that.

No, I wasn't equating, you just made a claim that 'barely any passports' were checked pre-Brexit, which is demonstrably false.

Without having scrutinised the figures , I'd have thought it is reasonable to suggest that (a) there have often been delays in busy periods ; and (b) that added complications caused by Brexit have made them a bit worse ?

Hard to see how things would have been streamlined...

Its worth noting that the port of Dover asked for £33m of investment after Brexit because they knew this was coming, but were only given 0.1% of that.

Its also worth noting that this isnt even the final implementation. Once the EU requires biometric checks for 3rd countries this can get much worse.

But yeah, keep blaming the French. Imagine being able to control your borders, do they not know people have summer holidays to go on?

alfie wrote:Without having scrutinised the figures , I'd have thought it is reasonable to suggest that (a) there have often been delays in busy periods ; and (b) that added complications caused by Brexit have made them a bit worse ?

Hard to see how things would have been streamlined...

This is it. It's not a good enough defence to say, 'ah, this or that problem isn't caused solely by Brexit'. That's not the point. The point is that Brexit was meant to ease problems, not add to them.

So have we taken back control or not? Because either we have and this is our fault, or its Frances fault and we havent.

We have and it’s obviously France’s fault for not treating us as an exception. Borders are for those yucky foreigners, not us mighty, plucky Brits

Samo wrote:So have we taken back control or not? Because either we have and this is our fault, or its Frances fault and we havent.

Do explain because this post makes no sense.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Samo wrote:So have we taken back control or not? Because either we have and this is our fault, or its Frances fault and we havent.

Do explain because this post makes no sense.

Allow me to spoon-feed you. If this indeed is the fault of the French then we have not, as promised, taken back control. If we have taken back control then we can, and probably already should already have, fixed the problems in Dover. If we haven't taken back control, then only the French can fix the problems.

Liz Truss is saying that this is all the fault of the French, which the usual Brexit teat-suckers are of course believing. That means that we clearly haven't taken back control.

Make sense?

Please can you use your mod powers to add Brexit teat sucker to Soul’s profile as a badge? It’s most appropriate

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Samo wrote:So have we taken back control or not? Because either we have and this is our fault, or its Frances fault and we havent.

Do explain because this post makes no sense.

Allow me to spoon-feed you. If this indeed is the fault of the French then we have not, as promised, taken back control. If we have taken back control then we can, and probably already should already have, fixed the problems in Dover. If we haven't taken back control, then only the French can fix the problems.

Liz Truss is saying that this is all the fault of the French, which the usual Brexit teat-suckers are of course believing. That means that we clearly haven't taken back control.

Make sense?

You'll have to spoon feed me in more simple terms as that makes no sense at all. Issues with border control on the French side has nothing to do with the UK 'taking back control'.

Maybe 'taking back control' means more than I thought. Maybe we're taking back control of France and reviving the spirit of Henry V.

Taking back control didnt mean a Frak thing, and thats the problem. Didnt stop millions buying in to it regardless.