Ireland vs Wales - Six Nations Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday, February 8
Venue: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick-off: 14:15 GMT
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Luke Pearce (England), Mike Fraser (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

WALES TEAM TO PLAY IRELAND (Saturday February 8 KO 14.15 ITV & S4C)

15. Leigh Halfpenny (86 Caps)
14. George North (92 Caps)
13. Nick Tompkins (1 Cap)
12. Hadleigh Parkes (26 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (22 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (80 Caps)
9. Tomos Williams (17 Caps)
1. Wyn Jones (23 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (74 Caps)
3. Dillon Lewis (23 Caps)
4. Jake Ball (43 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (135 Caps)
6. Aaron Wainwright (19 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (73 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (73 Caps)

Replacements:
16. Ryan Elias (10 Caps)
17. Rhys Carre (6 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (7 Caps)
19. Adam Beard (20 Caps)
20. Ross Moriarty (42 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (51 Caps)
22. Owen Williams (3 Caps)
23. Johnny McNicholl (1 Cap)​


Ireland (v Wales):
15. Jordan Larmour
14 Andrew Conway
13 Robbie Henshaw
12 Bundee Aki
11 Jacob Stockdale
10 Johnny Sexton (capt)
9 Conor Murray
1 Cian Healy
2 Rob Herring
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Iain Henderson
5 James Ryan
6 Peter O’Mahony
7 Josh van der Flier
8 CJ Stander

Replacements:
16 Ronan Kelleher
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Andrew Porter
19 Devin Toner
20 Max Deegan
21 John Cooney
22 Ross Byrne
23 Keith Earls

I would also say that as much as I rate Murray, I believe Cooney has to start against England. I think that his speed of distribution will trouble England.

eirebilly wrote:I would also say that as much as I rate Murray, I believe Cooney has to start against England. I think that his speed of distribution will trouble England.

Get away Billy, you'd prefer Marmion

I can't see Cooney getting a start at Twickenham. The Murray/Sexton axis has worked well thus far, very well on Saturday so with that partnership showing some signs of life again I can't see Farrell halting it's progress any time soon.

Soul Requiem wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:His hand doesn't leave the ball and it squirms sideways once the pressure between ground and ball is made. Try.

His hand not leaving the ball isn't relevant, if he's not holding the ball it has to be pressed down which it was not.

He clearly drops the ball, without the rose tinted specs you can clearly see the ball being dropped. If you view Stockdale's botched try effort against Leinster last season you can see where Stockdale loses control of the ball and although it's even less clear if he loses contact with the ball or not it would have taken the most short-sighted Ulster fan to argue that the try should have been awarded.

Parkes messed up but as has been already pointed out the blatant forward pass by AWJ for Wales' first try was missed so swings and roundabouts etc.

I thought that Murray and Sexton worked well but I think Cooney and Sexton will work better Pete. I also cant see Farrell not selecting Murray but I do feel that Cooney is the quicker player and I think that will cause England problems.


I would also get Best in the set up as a consultant for the driving maul as well. I think the current crop could benefit greatly from that as the maul has not looked good to me in either game so far.

I didn't think that Parks had the ball under control but for me, it was very close and could very well have been awarded. It was 50/50 for a try for me.

eirebilly wrote:I thought that Murray and Sexton worked well but I think Cooney and Sexton will work better Pete. I also cant see Farrell not selecting Murray but I do feel that Cooney is the quicker player and I think that will cause England problems.


I would also get Best in the set up as a consultant for the driving maul as well. I think the current crop could benefit greatly from that as the maul has not looked good to me in either game so far.

I agree he bring a decent bit more pace than Murray. Check Cooneys pass for the Conway try compared to a similar pass by Murray for the Larmour score in the first half. Murray's pass loops a bit and is slower, Cooney's is like a bullet and as accurate a pass from the base of a ruck as I've seen in an age. Cooney definitely brings plenty to the table but Murray's experience and cool head keeps his grip on the 9 shirt for now. Cooney will undoubtedly get a start and plenty of game time against Italy, who'll partner him at 10 though?

Funnily enough Pete, I feel Cooney and Byrne would make a great pairing at 9 and 10. I like Carberry but I feel Byrne just has that bit more.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:His hand doesn't leave the ball and it squirms sideways once the pressure between ground and ball is made. Try.

His hand not leaving the ball isn't relevant, if he's not holding the ball it has to be pressed down which it was not.

He clearly drops the ball, without the rose tinted specs you can clearly see the ball being dropped. If you view Stockdale's botched try effort against Leinster last season you can see where Stockdale loses control of the ball and although it's even less clear if he loses contact with the ball or not it would have taken the most short-sighted Ulster fan to argue that the try should have been awarded.

Parkes messed up but as has been already pointed out the blatant forward pass by AWJ for Wales' first try was missed so swings and roundabouts etc.

Just watched the extended highlights and the AWJ pass really doesn't look forward to me. I've watched it loads now. Ireland's last try looks a definitive forward pass though! If you look where Larmour is standing when he passes and where Conway is standing when he catches it seems a define forward pass, and the hands seem to be forward too. But hey ho! He probably would have scored with a flat pass anyway so I'm not too bothered

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/video/highlights-ireland-v-wales/

eirebilly wrote:Funnily enough Pete, I feel Cooney and Byrne would make a great pairing at 9 and 10. I like Carberry but I feel Byrne just has that bit more.

I prefer Byrne to Carberry myself.

Carberry and Cooney are too similar in that they sometimes go off the script to do their own thing. There's room for one player like that at half-back but not two.
We still need the Schmidtball formulaic approach as long as it's mixed with some of the head's up rugby that we've missed over the Schmidt era. Individual excellence can win games but the control needs to be there too should individuality fail to deliver.
I know what I mean anyway even if I can't put it into words

It's good that Murray is feeling some lurve again - from a coach that held off on any decision to replace him.  It's good that Murray seems to be responding to perhaps now different demands/requests coming to him from coaches or indeed players on the training ground.  We are being told the environment is more inclusive of player opinions.

All good.  But like Billy, I don't think it would be seen as a massive crime to tell Murray he's been good, he'll have other starts but in the interests of increasing the pool and giving quality time to alternatives, Cooney to be picked to start against England.

I actually have a feeling it might happen.  Farrell knows he's not learning as much as he could if he doesn't drop some more alternatives into the mix for the remaining games.  Starters, Finishers; they all play an essential role.  Let's try Murray as experienced finisher.

The Oracle wrote:

Just watched the extended highlights and the AWJ pass really doesn't look forward to me.  I've watched it loads now.  Ireland's last try looks a definitive forward pass though!  If you look where Larmour is standing when he passes and where Conway is standing when he catches it seems a define forward pass, and the hands seem to be forward too.  But hey ho!  He probably would have scored with a flat pass anyway so I'm not too bothered  

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/video/highlights-ireland-v-wales/

I'd put my hand up and suggest it looked forward, yes.  I was surprised nobody wanted to do a close relook, ...but then AWJ's could have done with a closer relook too.  No harm done if it was judged to be okay.

I'm finding so many of these moments in recent years - you look at them and your eyes just can't believe it wasn't forward but nobody else seems to raise an eyebrow.  I'm not a fan of 'flat pass'ology.  Too much scope for quick fire forward shunts.

For me both passes are probably forward, AWJ by more. Should Jones and Larmour not be tackled as they pass, no one would have questioned the legality as they would have looked backwards.

Parkes hand does lose contact with the ball just before it hits the ground. Tight but slow mo does show that.

LondonTiger wrote:For me both passes are probably forward, AWJ by more. Should Jones and Larmour not be tackled as they pass, no one would have questioned the legality as they would have looked backwards.

Parkes hand does lose contact with the ball just before it hits the ground. Tight but slow mo does show that.

Yeah great try but more than one forward pass. This is the sort of try that refs often let go though.

I have watched it on slo mo and I don't see it leave his hand. As anyone who has played rugby knows, when you carry in one hand like that, often your palm isn't holding it, but the crutch of the wrist is. It looks like the 'butt' of his hand, his fingers, and his wrist are in control of it while his palm perhaps comes away. There is then contact downwards as Parkes grounds it and the ball's movement suggests the pressure comes from that part of the hand, not the palm. I see one angle which suggests he's dropped it but then 3 or 4 angles that show him in possession of the ball at all times. I'm saying try.

But either way Wales spent far too long trying to score and didn't. Should probably have had a yellow card if Poite thought Stander was infringing on the 5m line, which I didn't think he was, but Ireland scored 3 tries from 2-3 phases in Wales' 22. Wales spent about 5-10 minutes and didn't score 1. That's the difference and it was poor Welsh defence all based on the idea of tiring out the opposition and running them ragged so you rack up tries late on. Not good enough. Club mentality. I look at Scotland under Townsend and see the same failings. Pivac must sort this out asap I'm afraid as he won't get the grace Gatland had when Wales came off the boil under his charge. Not yet anyway.

I didn't think Parkes scored that either, it looked like a knock-on to me. Ireland definitely didn't score from the lineout drive though, we see the ball placed on the ground well before the line and then everyone fall over it. Poite couldn't have seen the ball grounded beyond the tryline either, which he admitted before he remembered it was good old Ireland. He also asked if the pass from AWJ was forward, which it wasn't. He didn't even ask the question for Conway's try of course.

I called Parkes’ effort a non-try in real time. Very obvious it was a bounce in slow-mo. Not even close to it being up for argument. Not sure what is being seen there by a select few.

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn't think Parkes scored that either, it looked like a knock-on to me. Ireland definitely didn't score from the lineout drive though, we see the ball placed on the ground well before the line and then everyone fall over it. Poite couldn't have seen the ball grounded beyond the tryline either, which he admitted before he remembered it was good old Ireland. He also asked if the pass from AWJ was forward, which it wasn't. He didn't even ask the question for Conway's try of course.

Comedy gold

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn't think Parkes scored that either, it looked like a knock-on to me. Ireland definitely didn't score from the lineout drive though, we see the ball placed on the ground well before the line and then everyone fall over it. Poite couldn't have seen the ball grounded beyond the tryline either, which he admitted before he remembered it was good old Ireland. He also asked if the pass from AWJ was forward, which it wasn't. He didn't even ask the question for Conway's try of course.

For VDFs try the ball is clearly over the line when he gets up, this is what Poite sees, so confirms he has seen the grounding. The replay shows the ball initially grounded short of the line but Poite clearly explains to the TMO that as it is a maul and not a tackle situation, VDF is free to pick the ball up and place it over the line at the second attempt so the try stands.

I'm not 100% on that myself but I thought it should have been a penalty try if they hadn't given it.

Parkes try I would have give myself, there should be a bit more clarity with what constitutes grounding, in RL they give those. Stockdales was similar against Leinster last season, in real time it looks like a good try.

The plan still needs to be to play in such a dominant way that you take the referees decision out of the reckoning for the result.

To suggest that some referees will favour certain teams is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous it is clearly true even if some fans get it wrong like Barnes favouring Wales over Ireland when it was very much the other way around after 2012. But the point about taking the referee out of the equation is correct. The game was won and lost on Wales' toothless second half and awful game management particularly when exiting their 22 and in defence in the same area.

Ridiculous in the idea that a referee will consciously favour a team.

guestalt_physicality wrote:It's not ridiculous it is clearly true even if some fans get it wrong like Barnes favouring Wales over Ireland when it was very much the other way around after 2012. But the point about taking the referee out of the equation is correct. The game was won and lost on Wales' toothless second half and awful game management particularly when exiting their 22 and in defence in the same area.

It's like performance art.

Ireland's first game of Six Nations 2020 in two weeks time against England!

I'm really looking forward to it. First chance to see what Farrell can do as head coach.

SecretFly wrote:Ireland's first game of Six Nations 2020 in two weeks time against England!

I'm really looking forward to it.  First chance to see what Farrell can do as head coach.

Ah, TightHEAD has hacked into 'Fly's account! Or is it Cyril?

guestalt_physicality wrote:We lost to a better team.

Fixed.

chris_501 wrote:Ridiculous in the idea that a referee will consciously favour a team.

Oh yes fair enough that is ridiculous I don't think anyone apart from a few trolls suggests that. But some referees do favour both the home team and styles of rugby that's for sure.

profitius wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:We lost to a better team.

Fixed.

Not sure about that. Better on the day, at home. Results over the last 10 years show there's very little between the two countries and these teams have been tit for tat for the last few years picking up one grand slam a piece but the difference would be the world cup performances.

That result back in 2011 or even 2019 means sod all now.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

profitius wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:We lost to a better team.

Fixed.

Not sure about that. Better on the day, at home. Results over the last 10 years show there's very little between the two countries and these teams have been tit for tat for the last few years picking up one grand slam a piece but the difference would be the world cup performances.

or the 4 wins from the last 5 head to head games for Ireland?

I'm not sure why anyone Irish would be holding onto the world cup warm-ups against Wales. I already posted evidence for the French ref's incompetence for those, it was absolutely shocking. Of the last four 6N encounters between the two however, the home team has won convincingly on each occasion.

A win is a win Mikey, or 4 of them

Collapse2005 wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

profitius wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:We lost to a better team.

Fixed.

Not sure about that. Better on the day, at home. Results over the last 10 years show there's very little between the two countries and these teams have been tit for tat for the last few years picking up one grand slam a piece but the difference would be the world cup performances.

or the 4 wins from the last 5 head to head games for Ireland?

If you want to use warm up games as a test of where teams are then Ireland may as well not turn up at Twickenham. I'd prefer to use proper test matches personally. Same with disregarding Barbarians games. Same sort of standard.

Baa baa s arent capped games.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Baa baa s arent capped games.

Unless you want to get all sentimental and give a 100th cap to an old flanker who is about to retire.

Some sides have capped Barbarians games (Wales for one) but I get your point.

Having said that, RWC warmup games are probably the least ‘relevant’ in terms of international tete a tetes.

I think it's very fair to count capped games in relation to 3 on the bounce though. World rugby certainly do hence england not having the world record consecutive wins (top tier games).

Look, shoddy Ireland (in everyone's estimation at the time) beat Wales (one of the bookies favourites to do well) twice in those blasted much talked about warm up games before the WC.
Ireland and Wales didn't meet in the WC.  Comparisons of ability are worthless, other than to acknowledge that we both met New Zealand.  They scored seven tries against us and six against Wales.  We scored 14, Wales scored 17. Remembering this is still very much Ireland's meltdown, pathetic, godawful period.
Next meeting is a few months later, and the meaningful 6N game - and again, a not very impressive, workmanlike Ireland (an opinion shared by a few Welsh posters here) beats Wales (again one of the pre-tournament favourites and a side that still might take the title.).

Them's the facts.  The rest is opinions.  As I keep saying, if Ireland actually get any good, they'll be quite good indeed!

You’re only as good as your last game (against NZ). Just ask Taylorman.

Collapse2005 wrote:A win is a win Mikey, or 4 of them

Will Ireland be apologising to Wayne Barnes then?

Cyril wrote:You’re only as good as your last game (against NZ). Just ask Taylorman.

I'd prefer ask Genge. He seems to like that maxim.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:A win is a win Mikey, or 4 of them

Will Ireland be apologising to Wayne Barnes then?

Only if you hold our hand whilst apologising to Poite..... ?

SecretFly wrote:

Them's the facts.  The rest is opinions.  As I keep saying, if Ireland actually get any good, they'll be quite good indeed!

Ireland are good, Schmidtball isn't. Farrell needs to retire it and implement more of a Leinster type game, that's the way you beat the ABs and reach No.1 in the world. Ireland might be good playing Schmidtball now when the others are transitioning, but I do feel it will come unstuck sooner or later like it usually does. No disrespect to Ireland meant but I do feel they might be a little more settled than at least 3 of their opponents (Wales, France, Italy).

SecretFly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:A win is a win Mikey, or 4 of them

Will Ireland be apologising to Wayne Barnes then?

Only if you hold our hand whilst apologising to Poite..... ?

Forget it then.

mikey_dragon wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Them's the facts.  The rest is opinions.  As I keep saying, if Ireland actually get any good, they'll be quite good indeed!

Ireland are good, Schmidtball isn't. Farrell needs to retire it and implement more of a Leinster type game, that's the way you beat the ABs and reach No.1 in the world. Ireland might be good playing Schmidtball now when the others are transitioning, but I do feel it will come unstuck sooner or later like it usually does. No disrespect to Ireland meant but I do feel they might be a little more settled than at least 3 of their opponents (Wales, France, Italy).

Ireland are playing more expansive rugby. I didn't see Wales running it out much from their own 22.
Ireland had 11 clean breaks to Wales' 4.
Ireland's meters were 322 compared to Wales' 232.
George North hardly touched the ball while Ireland's back 3 made 175m compared to 90m for Wales' back 3.

Yeah you were being gifted possession by Poite, it's bound to way the stats in your favour. It's still Schmidtball.

Ireland beat The ABs twice under Schmidt and did reach world number 1 ranking Mikey.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah you were being gifted possession by Poite, it's bound to way the stats in your favour. It's still Schmidtball.

Always blaming the refs.

SecretFly wrote:Look, shoddy Ireland (in everyone's estimation at the time) beat Wales (one of the bookies favourites to do well) twice in those blasted much talked about warm up games before the WC.
Ireland and Wales didn't meet in the WC.  Comparisons of ability are worthless, other than to acknowledge that we both met New Zealand.  They scored seven tries against us and six against Wales.  We scored 14, Wales scored 17.  Remembering this is still very much Ireland's meltdown, pathetic, godawful period.
Next meeting is a few months later, and the meaningful 6N game - and again, a not very impressive, workmanlike Ireland (an opinion shared by a few Welsh posters here) beats Wales (again one of the pre-tournament favourites and a side that still might take the title.).

Them's the facts.  The rest is opinions.  As I keep saying, if Ireland actually get any good, they'll be quite good indeed!

Nah, sorry. Yer man Soul Requim says games/performances in 2019 are irrelevant.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland beat The ABs twice under Schmidt and did reach world number 1 ranking Mikey.

That Chicago game wasn’t Schmidtball. That was back then, I think it has had its day.