World Rankings after the RWC!!!!

by majesticimperialman Sun 03 Nov 2019, 1:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

Men's Rankings

Updated: 02 November, 2019

2019

NOVEMBER

SUNDAY 3RD

I looked at the world Rankings, at it said SA 1 NZ 2 ENG 3RD.

I thought England would be 2nd, after they (England) Beat NZ

is THIS RIGHT OR DOES IT NEED UPDATING.?

dISCUSS.

FULL RANKINGS

[th]POSITION[/th][th]TEAMS[/th][th]POINTS[/th]


[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]1[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(2)	SOUTH AFRICA	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]94.19[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]2[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(3)	NEW ZEALAND	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]92.11[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]3[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(1)	ENGLAND	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]88.82[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]4[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(4)	WALES	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]85.02[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]5[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(5)	IRELAND	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]84.45[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]6[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(6)	AUSTRALIA	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]81.90[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]7[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(7)	FRANCE	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]80.88[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]8[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(8)	JAPAN	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]79.28[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]9[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(9)	SCOTLAND	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]79.23[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=13][b][size=10][b][size=13][b][size=10][b]10[/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size][/b][/size]	(10)	ARGENTINA	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10]78.31[/size][/size][/size][/size]	[size=13][size=10][size=13][size=10] [/size][/size][/size][/size]

VIEW FULL RANKINGS

by Cyril Wed 06 Nov 2019, 2:44 pm

Fair enough, Taylorman. I take it back. Miaow does tend to bring out the worst in everyone thumbsup

by tigertattie Wed 06 Nov 2019, 4:16 pm

Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

by Taylorman Wed 06 Nov 2019, 5:16 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Well they invented all three so you’d think they’d be good at them. None of the rugby world countries take all three as seriously as England do anyway. South Africa and Oz do with two and are average at football, the rest either don’t play cricket or Footballet enough to be contenders.

thanks for needlessly repeating this ...

Where have I repeated this before? Never, so get off my posts.

by Taylorman Wed 06 Nov 2019, 5:17 pm

tigertattie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

Yes that’s how most of those work. The Bledisloe is often over three tests though.
Sorry, just read it again so rather than remove will correct...if that’s the case then yes as bluestone says that’s a really good way of doing it.

We have the Ranfurly shield at national level which at one point was our main, and only trophy played for nationally.

There were some iconic matches in the 60s to 80s, when unbelievably Auckland defended it 63 times straight from 85-93, one record that will never be broken. 10 or 15 is considered a decent run. Other comps that involve sides more across the board have risen above its importance but it’s still there.

But internationally it would be an idea to have a higher profile instance of the same. The issues with it are that it’s possibly difficult to promote long term as it ‘could be anywhere’.

But it could ‘spike’ last minute sales if it were sold in a way that winning it carried weight, an AI match for example if played for a highly sought after trophy could add flavour to what is otherwise a series of one offs that don’t have anything on them other than bragging rights and rankings. Dollar matches.

by bluestonevedder Wed 06 Nov 2019, 5:21 pm

tigertattie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

i love the idea of the Raeburn shield. I wish it would be officially recognized

by Taylorman Thu 07 Nov 2019, 2:27 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

i love the idea of the Raeburn shield. I wish it would be officially recognized

btw...How come we didnt have this one then? We last beat SA? Does it not count certain matches?

Unless it went from SA, to us, without knowing that, to England then back to SA? Very Happy

by **Pal Joey** Thu 07 Nov 2019, 8:04 am

miaow wrote: Wales should have some non-entity cup for beating Australia in both 2018 and 2019.

You do. It's called the James Bevan Trophy. Since 2011 I think?

by **Afro** Thu 07 Nov 2019, 9:56 am

Taylorman wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

i love the idea of the Raeburn shield. I wish it would be officially recognized

btw...How come we didnt have this one then? We last beat SA? Does it not count certain matches?

Unless it went from SA, to us, without knowing that, to England then back to SA?

It's like a Lineal champion. I love the idea

It went from japan to SA. Japan "won" it from Ireland (WC game), Ireland won it from Wales in the Pre-WC warm up. Wales won it from England pre-WC, who won it from Wales the week before.

by **Afro** Thu 07 Nov 2019, 9:59 am

Best I could do formatting wise

-->

No.                              Holder*                     Gained                      Days held                 Matches

1                                   Scotland                    27 March 1871        315                              1

2                                   England                     05 February 18721855                            8

3                                   Scotland                    05 March 1877        1090                            5

4                                   England                     28 February 1880735                              5

5                                   Scotland                    04 March 1882        364                              3

6                                   England                     03 March 1883        1435                            10

7                                   Ireland                       05 February 188714                                1

8                                   Scotland                    19 February 1887350                              3

9                                   Wales                         04 February 188828                                1

10                                Ireland                       03 March 1888        7                                   1

11                                Scotland                    10 March 1888        721                              5

12                                England                     01 March 1890        371                              4

13                                Scotland                    07 March 1891        364                              3

14                                England                     05 March 1892        308                              1

15                                Wales                         07 January 1893     364                              3

16                                England                     06 January 1894     28                                1

17                                Ireland                       03 February 1894364                              3

18                                England                     02 February 189535                                1

19                                Scotland                    09 March 1895        322                              1

20                                Wales                         25 January 1896     49                                1

21                                Ireland                       14 March 1896        343                              2

22                                Scotland                    20 February 189721                                1

23                                England                     13 March 1897        329                              1

24                                Ireland                       05 February 189814                                1

25                                Scotland                    19 February 1898364                              2

26                                Ireland                       18 February 1899349                              2

27                                England                     03-Feb-00                337                              2

28                                Wales                         05-Jan-01                 35                                1

29                                Scotland                    09-Feb-01                357                              3

30                                Wales                         01-Feb-02                371                              3

31                                Scotland                    07-Feb-03                364                              3

32                                Wales                         06-Feb-04                35                                1

33                                Ireland                       12-Mar-04                364                              3

34                                Wales                         11-Mar-05                364                              4

35                                Ireland                       10-Mar-06                259                              1

36                                South Africa            24-Nov-06                5376                            8

37                                New Zealand          13-Aug-21                14                                1

38                                South Africa            27-Aug-21                2520                            3

39                                New Zealand          21-Jul-28                   28                                1

40                                South Africa            18-Aug-28                14                                1

41                                New Zealand          01-Sep-28                308                              1

42                                Australia                   06-Jul-29                   798                              3

43                                New Zealand          12-Sep-31                294                              1

44                                Australia                   02-Jul-32                   14                                1

45                                New Zealand          16-Jul-32                   756                              2

46                                Australia                   11-Aug-34                756                              2

47                                New Zealand          05-Sep-36                364                              3

48                                South Africa            04-Sep-37                5845                            12

49                                Australia                   05-Sep-53                14                                1

50                                South Africa            19-Sep-53                1029                            4

51                                New Zealand          14-Jul-56                   21                                1

52                                South Africa            04-Aug-56                14                                1

53                                New Zealand          18-Aug-56                749                              5

54                                Australia                   06-Sep-58                14                                1

55                                New Zealand          20-Sep-58                644                              1

56                                South Africa            25-Jun-60                 28                                1

57                                New Zealand          23-Jul-60                   35                                2

58                                South Africa            27-Aug-60                1078                            10

59                                Australia                   10-Aug-63                28                                2

60                                South Africa            07-Sep-63                322                              2

61                                France                       25-Jul-64                   217                              5

62                                England                     27-Feb-65                322                              2

63                                Wales                         15-Jan-66                 56                                2

64                                Ireland                       12-Mar-66                336                              2

65                                England                     11-Feb-67                14                                1

66                                France                       25-Feb-67                140                              4

67                                South Africa            15-Jul-67                   14                                2

68                                France                       29-Jul-67                   119                              2

69                                New Zealand          25-Nov-67                973                              9

70                                South Africa            25-Jul-70                   14                                1

71                                New Zealand          08-Aug-70                21                                1

72                                South Africa            29-Aug-70                644                              7

73                                England                     03-Jun-72                 217                              1

74                                New Zealand          06-Jan-73                 35                                2

75                                France                       10-Feb-73                14                                1

76                                England                     24-Feb-73                343                              4

77                                Scotland                    02-Feb-74                28                                1

78                                Ireland                       02-Mar-74                266                              1

79                                New Zealand          23-Nov-74                609                              3

80                                South Africa            24-Jul-76                   21                                1

81                                New Zealand          14-Aug-76                21                                1

82                                South Africa            04-Sep-76                1806                            5

83                                New Zealand          15-Aug-81                14                                1

84                                South Africa            29-Aug-81                14                                1

85                                New Zealand          12-Sep-81                350                              5

86                                Australia                   28-Aug-82                14                                1

87                                New Zealand          11-Sep-82                434                              3

88                                England                     19-Nov-83                77                                1

89                                Scotland                    04-Feb-84                98                                3

90                                Romania                   12-May-84               182                              1

91                                France                       10-Nov-84                224                              6

92                                Argentina                 22-Jun-85                 7                                   1

93                                France                       29-Jun-85                 203                              1

94                                Scotland                    18-Jan-86                 14                                1

95                                Wales                         01-Feb-86                28                                2

96                                France                       01-Mar-86                91                                3

97                                Argentina                 31-May-86               7                                   1

98                                France                       07-Jun-86                 14                                1

99                                Australia                   21-Jun-86                 63                                4

100                              New Zealand          23-Aug-86                14                                1

101                              Australia                   06-Sep-86                280                              6

102                              France                       13-Jun-87                 7                                   1

103                              New Zealand          20-Jun-87                 1155                            18

104                              Australia                   18-Aug-90                371                              4

105                              New Zealand          24-Aug-91                64                                5

106                              Australia                   27-Oct-91                 272                              6

107                              New Zealand          25-Jul-92                   490                              5

108                              England                     27-Nov-93                84                                2

109                              Ireland                       19-Feb-94                106                              2

110                              Australia                   05-Jun-94                 354                              8

111                              South Africa            25-May-95               415                              10

112                              Australia                   13-Jul-96                   14                                1

113                              New Zealand          27-Jul-96                   35                                4

114                              South Africa            31-Aug-96                322                              7

115                              New Zealand          19-Jul-97                   357                              10

116                              Australia                   11-Jul-98                   7                                   1

117                              South Africa            18-Jul-98                   140                              7

118                              England                     05-Dec-98                127                              4

119                              Wales                         11-Apr-99                 186                              8

120                              Samoa                       14-Oct-99                 6                                   1

121                              Scotland                    20-Oct-99                 4                                   1

122                              New Zealand          24-Oct-99                 7                                   1

123                              France                       31-Oct-99                 6                                   1

124                              Australia                   06-Nov-99                252                              4

125                              New Zealand          15-Jul-00                   21                                2

126                              Australia                   05-Aug-00                105                              4

127                              England                     18-Nov-00                336                              10

128                              Ireland                       20-Oct-01                 28                                2

129                              New Zealand          17-Nov-01                259                              9

130                              Australia                   03-Aug-02                14                                1

131                              South Africa            17-Aug-02                84                                1

132                              France                       09-Nov-02                98                                3

133                              England                     15-Feb-03                196                              8

134                              France                       30-Aug-03                7                                   1

135                              England                     06-Sep-03                182                              10

136                              Ireland                       06-Mar-04                98                                3

137                              South Africa            12-Jun-04                 42                                3

138                              New Zealand          24-Jul-04                   14                                1

139                              Australia                   07-Aug-04                14                                1

140                              South Africa            21-Aug-04                84                                2

141                              Ireland                       13-Nov-04                119                              6

142                              France                       12-Mar-05                105                              3

143                              South Africa            25-Jun-05                 14                                1

144                              Australia                   09-Jul-05                   14                                1

145                              South Africa            23-Jul-05                   35                                3

146                              New Zealand          27-Aug-05                371                              14

147                              South Africa            02-Sep-06                70                                2

148                              Ireland                       11-Nov-06                92                                3

149                              France                       11-Feb-07                28                                2

150                              England                     11-Mar-07                6                                   1

151                              Wales                         17-Mar-07                70                                1

152                              Australia                   26-May-07               21                                3

153                              South Africa            16-Jun-07                 7                                   1

154                              New Zealand          23-Jun-07                 7                                   1

155                              Australia                   30-Jun-07                 21                                2

156                              New Zealand          21-Jul-07                   77                                5

157                              France                       06-Oct-07                 7                                   1

158                              England                     13-Oct-07                 7                                   1

159                              South Africa            20-Oct-07                 259                              4

160                              New Zealand          05-Jul-08                   7                                   1

161                              South Africa            12-Jul-08                   7                                   1

162                              Australia                   19-Jul-08                   14                                2

163                              New Zealand          02-Aug-08                378                              8

164                              France                       13-Jun-09                 7                                   1

165                              New Zealand          20-Jun-09                 35                                3

166                              South Africa            25-Jul-09                   42                                4

167                              Australia                   05-Sep-09                14                                1

168                              New Zealand          19-Sep-09                406                              15

169                              Australia                   30-Oct-10                 14                                2

170                              England                     13-Nov-10                14                                2

171                              South Africa            27-Nov-10                219                              1

172                              Australia                   23-Jul-11                   14                                1

173                              New Zealand          06-Aug-11                14                                1

174                              South Africa            20-Aug-11                50                                5

175                              Australia                   09-Oct-11                 7                                   1

176                              New Zealand          16-Oct-11                 413                              15

177                              England                     01-Dec-12                105                              5

178                              Wales                         17-Mar-13                92                                2

179                              Japan                         15-Jun-13                 140                              3

180                              New Zealand          02-Nov-13                337                              12

181                              South Africa            04-Oct-14 35 1

182 Ireland 08-Nov -14 126 6

183 Wales   14-Mar-15 148 2

184 Ireland 08-Aug-15 21 2

185 Wales 29-Aug-15 42 5

186 Australia 10-Oct-15 21 3

187 New Zealand 31-Oct-15 371 11

188 Ireland 05-Nov-16 14 2

189 New Zealand    19-Nov-16 336    9

190 Australia 21-Oct-17 28    2

191 England 18-Nov-17 99 4

192 Scotland    24-Feb-18 14 1

193 Ireland    10-Mar-18 92 2

194 Australia 09-Jun-18 7 1

195 Ireland    16-Jun-18 161 6

196 England    02-Feb-19 21 2

197 Wales 23-Feb-19 169 3

198 England 11-Aug-19 7 1

199 Wales 17-Aug-19 15 1

200 Ireland 31-Aug-19 28 3

201 Japan 28-Sep-19 23 3

202 South Africa 20-Oct-19 - 2

by bluestonevedder Thu 07 Nov 2019, 10:01 am

Taylorman wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

i love the idea of the Raeburn shield. I wish it would be officially recognized

btw...How come we didnt have this one then? We last beat SA? Does it not count certain matches?

Unless it went from SA, to us, without knowing that, to England then back to SA?

So Ireland went into the WC as holders, after taking it off Wales during the warm up game. Japan then beat Ireland in the WC pool stage to take the trophy. SA then beat Japan in the quarter final so took it. They have not been beaten since! You can track it all here https://www.raeburnshield.com/previousholders

by protea438 Thu 07 Nov 2019, 10:57 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Current trophy holders in tier one that I know of...:

Boks: WCup, Rugby Championship
Wales: 6N, Triple Crown
NZ: Bledsiloe cup (v Oz), Dave Gallaher cup (v France), Hillary Shield (v England), Freedom cup (v SA)
Scotland: Calcutta cup (v England), 5 nations (forever holders since 1999), Hopetoun cup (v Oz)
England: Cooke cup (v Oz)

Ireland/ France/ Argie/ Oz/ Italy...

SA also hold the Raeburn Shield - This title is played for each time the current holder plays someone. For example if SA next play Oz and Oz win that game, the title passes to Oz who would in turn put it up against whoever they play next.

i love the idea of the Raeburn shield. I wish it would be officially recognized

btw...How come we didnt have this one then? We last beat SA? Does it not count certain matches?

Unless it went from SA, to us, without knowing that, to England then back to SA?

So Ireland went into the WC as holders, after taking it off Wales during the warm up game. Japan then beat Ireland in the WC pool stage to take the trophy. SA then beat Japan in the quarter final so took it. They have not been beaten since! You can track it all here https://www.raeburnshield.com/previousholders

Never heard of this one before, reminds me a bit of that 24/7 title in WWE Smile

by Guest Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:07 pm

Afro wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
It went from japan to SA. Japan "won" it from Ireland (WC game), Ireland won it from Wales in the Pre-WC warm up. Wales won it from England pre-WC, who won it from Wales the week before.

Who had held it since...beating SA in 2018? Who'd beaten NZ in the summer, who had held it...for a while?

Did the Lions ever hold it in 2017? Presumably not as they won and then drew the final 2 games - but that doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility come 2021.

Edit: Just seen the longlist, Wales didn't hold it for too long in the winning streak then.

Have to ask then - why did the Lions not claim it in the Summer of 2017? NZ held it from 2016 to Oct 2017? Yet the beat, lost, and then drew v the Lions in the middle of that...

I think there's been a mistake. It's not SA with the Shield, it's the Lions...no!?

by Guest Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:16 pm

Also, also...mental to see that Wales held it in 2007 then lost it...in May 2007!? I had to check as I thought it was too early for a warm up game.

Completely forgot (but remembered) Wales toured Australia in 2007. That's crazy. Months before the Rugby World Cup. Not long before the warm up games, either. They actually played well on tour as well, completely bottled a win at the death in one game.

If you need any better indication of how the game changed in the years between 2007-2010/11, it's the fact Wales went on a blydi summer tour to Australia - a team they'd play in their group - before a RWC...

by Guest Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:20 pm

Also, final point on Wales - we've lost the shield in some real stinkers over the years. Talk about boom and bust. Samoa in 1999, Japan in 2013...

by Soul Requiem Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:20 pm

miaow wrote:
Afro wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
It went from japan to SA. Japan "won" it from Ireland (WC game), Ireland won it from Wales in the Pre-WC warm up. Wales won it from England pre-WC, who won it from Wales the week before.

Who had held it since...beating SA in 2018? Who'd beaten NZ in the summer, who had held it...for a while?

Did the Lions ever hold it in 2017? Presumably not as they won and then drew the final 2 games - but that doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility come 2021.

Edit: Just seen the longlist, Wales didn't hold it for too long in the winning streak then.

Have to ask then - why did the Lions not claim it in the Summer of 2017? NZ held it from 2016 to Oct 2017? Yet the beat, lost, and then drew v the Lions in the middle of that...

I think there's been a mistake. It's not SA with the Shield, it's the Lions...no!?

I wouldn't have thought the Lions would be eligible for it since they only play every four years.

by Guest Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:44 pm

Maybe. But it would put some added jeopardy on that 3rd test if the shield did become a thing and, say, the tour was already wrapped up 2-0 by either team.

Though it's hardly a perfect barometer, what the shield does show is NZ's utter dominance this decade. They held it basically one year on, one year off, then on the first opportunity to reclaim it, won it back, and the cycle of holding it for another 12 months continued.

But that ended with the Lions tour - even if you don't award them the shield.

They haven't held the shield since during/just after failing to win the Lions tour. And ofc their results have stuttered since as well.

I really do think Gatland doesn't get nearly enough praise for pulling that off, nor was it looked at (by enough people...but not me...) as a barometer for where NZ were as a country, as a team, as a system etc. They really ought to have wrapped that tour up 3-0 if the 2011-2015 team had played it. Forget when SOB said, that's the kind of hubris that misunderstands what it takes to win the important games when it really counts - the kind of hubris that doesn't see a 20 point defeat coming in a RWC. Not saying either England or Ireland were guilty of that this year, but they have been in the past, and there were obvious echoes of the same again - too many assumptions. That Lions tour was probably Gatland's greatest achievement. No way should they have been competitive in those tests.

by **Afro** Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:12 pm

You can't include a side that only plays every 4 years and also only ever plays 3 other sides.

One thing with Wales is that once they "win" the Raeburn Shield, they aren't very good at keeping it.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:42 pm

protea438 wrote:

Never heard of this one before, reminds me a bit of that 24/7 title in WWE

Brilliant

by SecretFly Thu 07 Nov 2019, 10:50 pm

Hmmm..... there were a good few times there where we took it off South Africa. No pressure so on our next encounter Whistle

....... provided they still have it.

by Pie Sun 10 Nov 2019, 5:16 am

Oh Scotland all that fuss and you cant even get out of the kiddie pool.

by SecretFly Sun 10 Nov 2019, 12:53 pm

Anyway, come next 6N, highest ranking up for grabs is third?

Oh how the mighty have fallen. Sad

by Taylorman Sun 10 Nov 2019, 5:51 pm

Post World Cup blues?

by Taylorman Sun 10 Nov 2019, 6:07 pm

miaow wrote:Maybe. But it would put some added jeopardy on that 3rd test if the shield did become a thing and, say, the tour was already wrapped up 2-0 by either team.

Though it's hardly a perfect barometer, what the shield does show is NZ's utter dominance this decade. They held it basically one year on, one year off, then on the first opportunity to reclaim it, won it back, and the cycle of holding it for another 12 months continued.

But that ended with the Lions tour - even if you don't award them the shield.

They haven't held the shield since during/just after failing to win the Lions tour. And ofc their results have stuttered since as well.

I really do think Gatland doesn't get nearly enough praise for pulling that off, nor was it looked at (by enough people...but not me...) as a barometer for where NZ were as a country, as a team, as a system etc. They really ought to have wrapped that tour up 3-0 if the 2011-2015 team had played it. Forget when SOB said, that's the kind of hubris that misunderstands what it takes to win the important games when it really counts - the kind of hubris that doesn't see a 20 point defeat coming in a RWC. Not saying either England or Ireland were guilty of that this year, but they have been in the past, and there were obvious echoes of the same again - too many assumptions. That Lions tour was probably Gatland's greatest achievement. No way should they have been competitive in those tests.

Gats had the selection from four countries, two have since became number one ranked, the other, and much stronger side, went to two, and was favourite when the World Cup final rolled up. All three were considered possible World Cup ranked. All three went on ten plus winning runs since 2016. Two won series in Oz.

NZ shed several of some of its greatest players after 2015 and still hadn’t fully replaced players when the Lions rolled up.

Gats should have won that series easily, with the best of three serious contenders for the top spot. Instead they got done in the first, which after the fact had Warburton in tears, all but returning home after the first due to the pressure of expectation. Then they somehow managed to draw the series off the back of sixty minutes of a key carded player.

And you think Gats should have been given more credit? For drawing with that level of selection available?

Amazing, what else do you need to win here?

Can’t wait till Wales tours next year. Following the World Cup NZ usually let the next sides know they haven’t lost it, so Scotland and Wales (two)one with a poor coach, the other with a new coach.

Mind you, we’ll have a new coach as well, but I’m guessing by then there will be a lot of new energy across the board.

by Guest Sun 10 Nov 2019, 7:07 pm

England aren't 'much stronger' than Wales and Ireland. Only in the minds of 'we judge teams by how they play against NZ'.

That stupid mindset cost Hansen his legacy. He thought Ireland were the strongest team. Got it wrong. So did you. Suppose you can throw a "we" over that one, if it's any consolation...

by Old Man Sun 10 Nov 2019, 7:46 pm

From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

by Taylorman Sun 10 Nov 2019, 7:46 pm

England are MUCH stronger. Always have been. We never thought Ireland were stronger. There were three in this from the start, and thats how they finished. Not everyones order but top three nonetheless. The rest were distant efforts.

Ireland were average at best in the 6N, terrible in the warmups and worse again in the Tournament proper. Once again they cracked on the big occasion.

Once again Miaow strikes out with his analysis. Once again Ireland exited quarters, once again Wales exited semis.

And you think hansen got it wrong. Eddie puts him to shame. He spent two years focussing on 'the wrong side' ha ha. Hansen didnt focus on anyone. THAT was his downfall. But how would you ever know that?

Anyway, bring your little team down n next year, and good luck. thumbsup

Heres the current state of Wales in NZ:

Played 10, lost 10
Points for 95, against 405 at 40-10
9 tries to 56 at 1:6

Last effort, 46-6, 6 tries to none in 2016.

Enjoy thumbsup

by Guest Sun 10 Nov 2019, 7:50 pm

Yeah I'm not reading that comment either, just like I didn't read past the first stupid point you made on the last one. Sorry to disappoint. I'm actually here to discuss rugby and not bicker. You did your best to pollute this forum during the RWC. Please go and speak to someone.

by Taylorman Sun 10 Nov 2019, 7:50 pm

Old Man wrote:From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

Understandable, we certainly dont, how can we with 31 straight wins? Mostly by huge margins. England win about every 8-10 years, this time it was 7. Last time it was 9, 10 before that, so it is reducing. For SA theyve had a lot of unnecessary losses in the last few years, adjusting for their disruptions, Super rugby, the quota etc...think that'll happen less now.

by Collapse2005 Sun 10 Nov 2019, 9:59 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Old Man wrote:From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

Understandable, we certainly dont, how can we with 31 straight wins? Mostly by huge margins. England win about every 8-10 years, this time it was 7. Last time it was 9, 10 before that, so it is reducing. For SA theyve had a lot of unnecessary losses in the last few years, adjusting for their disruptions, Super rugby, the quota etc...think that'll happen less now.

In fairness though you only play England every 2 to 3 years.

by Taylorman Sun 10 Nov 2019, 10:28 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Old Man wrote:From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

Understandable, we certainly dont, how can we with 31 straight wins? Mostly by huge margins. England win about every 8-10 years, this time it was 7. Last time it was 9, 10 before that, so it is reducing. For SA theyve had a lot of unnecessary losses in the last few years, adjusting for their disruptions, Super rugby, the quota etc...think that'll happen less now.

In fairness though you only play England every 2 to 3 years.

9 times since 2010 is more than every 2-3 years. Weve payed England 24 in the 24 years of pro rugby, its just the last four years thats been a huge anomaly, playing at least once every other year, or more.

by Collapse2005 Mon 11 Nov 2019, 7:53 am

Fair enough

by protea438 Mon 11 Nov 2019, 11:50 am

Taylorman wrote:South Africa and Oz do with two and are average at football, the rest either don’t play cricket or Footballet enough to be contenders.

Calling South Africa average at football is a huge compliment Very Happy

by tigertattie Mon 11 Nov 2019, 12:14 pm

Afro wrote:You can't include a side that only plays every 4 years and also only ever plays 3 other sides.

One thing with Wales is that once they "win" the Raeburn Shield, they aren't very good at keeping it.

Correctamundo.

The Lions dont count as they are an invitational side. The Barbarians also dont count either. Remember the Baa Baas are a club so not an international side.

Besides, if the lions never lost a game to the SANZAR sides then the shield would never be able to change hands to the other nations of the world.

by Taylorman Mon 11 Nov 2019, 4:22 pm

Ha ha, luckily there’s never been a problem with that then. Simple really, it’s a national thing. It’s like saying why don’t the Lions play in the 6N, or RC, non sensical.

by SecretFly Mon 11 Nov 2019, 9:28 pm

It's laughable. I mean first the Lions have to win a bloody World Cup (atrocious record there, having never even qualified to play in it) before they even consider getting their hands on the mighty Raeburn Shield.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 12 Nov 2019, 9:24 am

Old Man wrote:From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

And yet England’s win percentage is twice that of Wales against SA Headscratch

by SecretFly Tue 12 Nov 2019, 9:39 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Old Man wrote:From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

And yet England’s win percentage is twice that of Wales against SA

I guess the logic is that it is mostly tougher to win a game than to lose one?

by Old Man Tue 12 Nov 2019, 9:50 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Old Man wrote:From a South African perspective we find Wales tougher than England

And yet England’s win percentage is twice that of Wales against SA

Look at the last RWC cycle.

SA vs Wales 1-4
SA vs England 3-3

by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:16 am

3 in wales and 1 in usa for the welsh games. None in south africa.
Point taken though england should have taken the series in south africa. Kicking was really poor those first 2 tests at altitude.

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