The Top 3 Elite in World Rugby

For those of us not in denial, you'll know by now that the top 3 ranked teams in the world are:

1. New Zealand
2. Ireland
3. Wales

A bit of a shake-up on the traditional pecking order, but good to see none-the-less. We have a clear and accurate view of the top ranked teams in world rugby, especially the top 3. There is no doubting NZ and Ireland, and Wales should have silenced the doubters upon completing their clean sweep. Wales have also engaged in a lot of squad rotation since the summer and remained unbeaten, including wins over SH powerhouses SA and Aus, so quite a remarkable achievement. Our last two losses were away from home against Ireland and England, but with playing them at home in the next 6N we should hopefully turn them over, thus maintaining our status as a Top 3 Elite and possibly moving up depending on other results. NZ potentially still a bridge too far for the current team, but we won't know until we know.

Previously I thought the Top 3 Elite could be threatened, but SA have shown they are not capable of breaking in. I think England have the potential to move in. England should have a better 6N this time around but at this point I do expect them to lose some of their away matches; they will be playing two of the Top 3 Elite away from home and my predictions are usually accurate. Behind the fourth ranked team we have the rest;

4. England

5. SA
6. Australia
7. Scotland
8. Fiji
9. France
10. Argentina

England clearly stronger than those ranked below them, with SA not far off. Whilst England can threaten the Top 3 Elite, the others cannot. The teams ranked 5-10 are all capable of turning each other over, with the score line being pretty close as has been the case recently. With France looking like they're about to implode again and Argentina still being crap, I expect England to top that world cup pool. I believe the Top 3 Elite will each top their pools respectively, with Scotland second to Ireland, and SA second to NZ. Fiji also looking like a potential banana skin in Pool D so I hope that isn't a midweek outing for Wales.

We won't know if the status quo is under a real threat from England until the 6N, but until then here we have a clear and accurate view of the top 3 ranked teams in World Rugby.

Wales are 1 point ahead of England and the lower ranked teams about the same margin again. But they’re over 4 or 5 points behind NZ and Ireland in the top tier.

Probably more accurate to say there’s a top two, followed by England & Wales in the next chunk.

Followed by SA, Scotland and Aus.

The Pac. Island teams are dropping out because the northern sides are far more structured across the side more these days. Pac. Island teams can no longer rely on their flair, pace and individual skill levels to compete in the top 10 anymore, particularly given they don't compete at either Super or Rugby championship level. They're mostly all strictly NH club players these days. Some are in Super, but most of those generally go north in the end- why play club in NZ if youre not going to be an AB? Some are in Mitre 10, but most in England and France, where their clubs don't give a T*&ss about their test playing aspirations.

Taylorman wrote:The Pac. Island teams are dropping out because the northern sides are far more structured across the side more these days. Pac. Island teams can no longer rely on their flair, pace and individual skill levels to compete in the top 10 anymore, particularly given they don't compete at either Super or Rugby championship level. They're mostly all strictly NH club players these days. Some are in Super, but most of those generally go north in the end- why play club in NZ if youre not going to be an AB? Some are in Mitre 10, but most in England and France, where their clubs don't give a T*&ss about their test playing aspirations.

Did you see the France v Fiji game, Tman?  Great result for the Fijians. Most of the PI players are in France in Top 14 and lower division PRO D2.

Yes, very surprising too. Those will come along every once in a while, more likely in World cups when all their players really want to represent their country most of all.

I guess that's one thing that's always going to be one thing for NH sides to watch out for. At world cup time there's potential for all SH sides to get boosted by overseas players, some to the extent the side is very different. NH sides I don't think get the same boost, but if they do, the players are next door anyway.

Taylorman wrote:Yes, very surprising too. Those will come along every once in a while, more likely in World cups when all their players really want to represent their country most of all.

I guess that's one thing that's always going to be one thing for NH sides to watch out for. At world cup time there's potential for all SH sides to get boosted by overseas players, some to the extent the side is very different. NH sides I don't think get the same boost, but if they do, the players are next door anyway.

It would nearly make sense for Fiji, Samoa & Tonga to prepare in France pre-RWC.

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Yes, very surprising too. Those will come along every once in a while, more likely in World cups when all their players really want to represent their country most of all.

I guess that's one thing that's always going to be one thing for NH sides to watch out for. At world cup time there's potential for all SH sides to get boosted by overseas players, some to the extent the side is very different. NH sides I don't think get the same boost, but if they do, the players are next door anyway.

It would nearly make sense for Fiji, Samoa & Tonga to prepare in France pre-RWC.  

In scattered club teams that dont even care that theyre in it? Why is that sense?

Taylorman wrote:The Pac. Island teams are dropping out because the northern sides are far more structured across the side more these days. Pac. Island teams can no longer rely on their flair, pace and individual skill levels to compete in the top 10 anymore, particularly given they don't compete at either Super or Rugby championship level. They're mostly all strictly NH club players these days. Some are in Super, but most of those generally go north in the end- why play club in NZ if youre not going to be an AB? Some are in Mitre 10, but most in England and France, where their clubs don't give a T*&ss about their test playing aspirations.

That's how Fiji recently beat France though. Even the disallowed tries were things of beauty. France first up for Wales is not a game I'm looking forward to as both will just be trying to bludgeon each other. We can't just keep building a lead and then allowing the team all the possession and territory, it's going to backfire, and it's going to potentially see us out of the Top 3 Elite.

As for Fiji, well yeah it would be good to see them progress again just not at our expense this time around... I recognized a few of the names on display, all of them good players for French teams. Tonga on the other hand, I don't think they have all their players playing at the top flight, which is why they weren't conditioned well enough to compete for the full 80.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Taylorman wrote:The Pac. Island teams are dropping out because the northern sides are far more structured across the side more these days. Pac. Island teams can no longer rely on their flair, pace and individual skill levels to compete in the top 10 anymore, particularly given they don't compete at either Super or Rugby championship level. They're mostly all strictly NH club players these days. Some are in Super, but most of those generally go north in the end- why play club in NZ if youre not going to be an AB? Some are in Mitre 10, but most in England and France, where their clubs don't give a T*&ss about their test playing aspirations.

That's how Fiji recently beat France though. Even the disallowed tries were things of beauty. France first up for Wales is not a game I'm looking forward to as both will just be trying to bludgeon each other. We can't just keep building a lead and then allowing the team all the possession and territory, it's going to backfire, and it's going to potentially see us out of the Top 3 Elite.

As for Fiji, well yeah it would be good to see them progress again just not at our expense this time around... I recognized a few of the names on display, all of them good players for French teams. Tonga on the other hand, I don't think they have all their players playing at the top flight, which is why they weren't conditioned well enough to compete for the full 80.

Thats how all the Island teams win, or used to. Very rare these days. I think Tonga have players in Japan, some are in the japanese side itself.

Pot Hale wrote:Wales are 1 point ahead of England and the lower ranked teams about the same margin again. But they’re over 4 or 5 points behind NZ and Ireland in the top tier.

Probably more accurate to say there’s a top two, followed by England & Wales in the next chunk.

Followed by SA, Scotland and Aus.

This is hilarious

There is indeed a top two and its followed by number 3 ffs

Poor wum,pie.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Poor wum,pie.

Doubt it was meant to be a wum.

He probably thought Poth was English, rather than Irish and ranking England above Wales by placing them first.

As it is though based on rankings points the gap is so large there is indeed an Elite 2 followed by the rest, of whom Wales are best.

I meant the whole thread lt.

France were quite bad last Saturday but it was good to see what Fiji could do after being 3 weeks together and having played a game or two before. They were good and disciplined in defense (except against rolling mauls) and had parity at scrum. So overall some improvement on the « basics » while keeping their usual strengths. If they can keep on improving at that rate and have a good WC preparation then they will surprise a team or two in Japan.

If I had to put my money on the line now, I'd have to bet on the current top 4 all making the semi-finals, which would represent some turnaround in 4 years.

I'd say the one most likely to crash the party would be Australia, who could do so by beating either Wales or England.

South Africa and Scotland would have to beat either Ireland or New Zealand to make it, which is a more daunting prospect at this moment in time.

6 Nations should be interesting. From an England perspective I'm hoping for 3 home wins and 1 away win (either would do). If we manage that we could be on for a Championship if bonus points fell in our favour. This is more of a stretch target than a prediction though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I meant the whole thread lt.

Why is the whole thread a WUM ?

I guess he's bored? I don't know his reasons.

A pretty tasteless thread really.

I think its great, and great for the 6N for the sides to have 2 chances to knock off one of the "elite" in world rugby in the tournament

Given how "elite" these sides are, I'm sure there will be no whining at all if either happen to lose a game. No sir, no moral victories or baaarracking the referee etc

While Wales are 3rd and rightly so is the gap between England and Wales. An injury hit England put up a good show v SA and NZ

From a AI point of view people views have gone

Up
Ireland, England, Wales

Unchanged
Argentina, South Africa, Fiji, Italy

Down
France, New Zealand, Australia, Scotland

Fiji got tanked by Scotland which would be poor in their point of view.
Scotland losing to SA and Wales
Aus wining in Italy the only plus though made hard work
NZ did stamp any authority on their two big games and left with more doubters.
France lost to Fiji and SA (manner of loss more than losing)

Is this article for real lol.

I'm amazed England are 4th seeing as we are rebuilding and experimenting with players and combinations, yet the teams ahead are fully established and as good as they will get in some cases!

But hey different people celebrate different things , but as a Fan that has won the world cup and been ranked No1 in the world I will never celebrate anything less than that.

It's slightly trollish, because Artful Dodger had already started a perfectly decent thread to have just this kind of discussion:

https://www.606v2.com/t68208-2018-international-season-state-of-the-nations-top-10

Still it's not the first time we've had more than one thread on the same topic.

I don't mind anyone higlighting Wales as number three in the rankings. Sure, other people's results can help but you can't get ahead of them if you don't win your own games, and Wales have been doing that.

This year's Six Nations has a number of subplots, one of which is that England have never lost to Wales [belated edit: under Jones]. At the same time, Wales have a slightly better record against Ireland over the same period, managing a draw in Dublin, when we've lost, and winning at home, while we've lost at Twickenham.

While I wouldn't want to put a number on it, it's quite possible that England would have a better chance than Wales of beating New Zealand, while Wales would have a better chance than us against Ireland. If Ireland have a claim to being the best team in the world (albeit not in the rankings), then that's not a bad position to be in.

Rugby Fan wrote:This year's Six Nations has a number of subplots, one of which is that England have never lost to Wales. 

I assume you missed out "under Eddie Jones"

Rugby Fan wrote:This year's Six Nations has a number of subplots, one of which is that England have never lost to Wales.

I think you might have missed a bit off the end of that sentence.

LordDowlais wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:This year's Six Nations has a number of subplots, one of which is that England have never lost to Wales.

I think you might have missed a bit off the end of that sentence.

Ha! clearly I was projecting my deepest wish but... yes, we can only claim to be unbeaten under the mad Australian.

BamBam wrote:I think its great, and great for the 6N for the sides to have 2 chances to knock off one of the "elite" in world rugby in the tournament

Given how "elite" these sides are, I'm sure there will be no whining at all if either happen to lose a game. No sir, no moral victories or baaarracking the referee etc

Can’t see much whining, until Wales win, then everyone else will whine? No barracking of the ref? Jeez have you been under a rock, that’s all that goes on in Wales match threads - from ‘neutrals’ night I add.

BamBam in further response to your comment, specially the first part, I couldn’t agree more. Given how elitist England’s elite playing squad is, I’m surprised they aren’t currently dining with the top 3 elite. Personally, what I would like to see is NZ get bumped out and have you guys dining with us the way it should be, us home nations ruling as the Top 3 Elite in World Rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Poor wum,pie.

How on earth was that a wum?

TightHEAD wrote:Is this article for real lol.

I'm amazed England are 4th seeing as we are rebuilding and experimenting with players and combinations, yet the teams ahead are fully established and as good as they will get in some cases!

But hey different people celebrate different things  ,  but as a Fan that has won the world cup and been ranked No1 in the world I will never celebrate anything less than that.

This

Clueless

Wales have been experimenting like mad for the last 12 months; prior to that Gats hardly capped anyone. This year he appears to have capped everyone but his mother's, tennis partner's dog.

And whenever I see SA play there's a new cap....not sure about NZ but they are always introducing the next best Islander to their team

mikey_dragon wrote:Top 3 Elite

Is this the official title for the top 3 teams now? The constant use of caps suggests so, but I've never seen or heard the top 3 teams referred to in this way before.

I think it depends on where Wales are in the rankings. It has been known to stretch down to the Top 12 Elite

I thought that was the French league?

BamBam wrote:I think it depends on where Wales are in the rankings. It has been known to stretch down to the Top 12 Elite

Do you expect England will be 12th then? I guess it’s possivle.

Entirely possible, but I certainly wouldn't expect it

Me neither. I outlined my expectations for England with regards to the Top 3 Elite in the OP.

mikey_dragon.

I would hold off with saying that Wales are an Elite side. A good side YES. Elite side NO.

I refer back  to 2003, when Englang won the RUGBY WORLD CUP. the only NH side to win the rugby world cup. It was being banded about at the time that England should ditch the 6ns and play in the super rugby against NEW Zealand, Australia and South Africa.

but after 2003 alott of English players retired from the (International rugby) altogether, and England took a dip in form and lost some of there spark.

This is the first time i can remember Wales have won all 4 autum inernationals. so too say there are an Elite team is in my opinion wrong. They are a good team yes i will agree with that but an Elite team. No, sorry i cannot agree with that.

There's only one side in the world that deserves the elite tag, though it wouldn't be beyond the realms of fairness to put Ireland up there as well after that awesome display against the Top 1 Elite side
But you crack on Mikey, nothing wrong with being proud of your team's achievement and I'm sure it brought a smile to many on here

In the RWC you only get one chance, how many games against the BIG three have Wales and Ireland won at the RWC.

Also I have my doubts two of the Elite 3 could win away from home vs the ‘mighty 6’

Hoonercat wrote:There's only one side in the world that deserves the elite tag, though it wouldn't be beyond the realms of fairness to put Ireland up there as well after that awesome display against the Top 1 Elite side
But you crack on Mikey, nothing wrong with being proud of your team's achievement and I'm sure it brought a smile to many on here

As you can see, there’s a still a number of ‘England fans’ lost in a time warp (2003 I think). Not sure why that has relevance now, or how it will in 2019? I feel they need a reminder of who the official Top 3 Elite actually is.
I’m sure it did too, whilst I’m also sure it brought a frown to many England fans faces too. That’s a shame, as I thought we were brothers.

Just wondering how many of the same people who derided the world rankings when England were no.2 now think the rankings are totally accurate.

lostinwales wrote:Just wondering how many of the same people who derided the world rankings when England were no.2 now think the rankings are totally accurate.

It’s mostly England fans who are now claiming they’re inaccurate. I don’t remember anyone questioning England’s status during that unbeaten run.

I applaud you mickey, 30 odd replies to an obvious wum. I do get and appreciate Welsh banter because on the whole you can take it. Fair play

Indeed. I'm quite disappointed that no one picked up on "baaarracking"

Apologies pie. Read this as your thread hence the wum comment.

Taylorman wrote:The Pac. Island teams are dropping out because the northern sides are far more structured across the side more these days. Pac. Island teams can no longer rely on their flair, pace and individual skill levels to compete in the top 10 anymore, particularly given they don't compete at either Super or Rugby championship level. They're mostly all strictly NH club players these days. Some are in Super, but most of those generally go north in the end- why play club in NZ if youre not going to be an AB? Some are in Mitre 10, but most in England and France, where their clubs don't give a T*&ss about their test playing aspirations.

For Samoa they are just simply in transition. Their golden generation (2011-2016) has nearly all retired and they haven't replaced them, they are struggling to beat tier 2 and tier 3 nations let alone the top ranked sides, they'll be back though. Fiji is defying the odds despite having a coach who is way out of his dept.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Just wondering how many of the same people who derided the world rankings when England were no.2 now think the rankings are totally accurate.

It’s mostly England fans who are now claiming they’re inaccurate. I don’t remember anyone questioning England’s status during that unbeaten run.

They are inaccurate, how are England 4th we have been terrible prior to this autumn.

Anyone else think the top 3 Elite sounds like a brand of cheap condoms?

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else think the top 3 Elite sounds like a brand of cheap condoms?

When did it become elite? Hasnt someone always been in those three positions since 2003?

Taylorman wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else think the top 3 Elite sounds like a brand of cheap condoms?

When did it become elite? Hasnt someone always been in those three positions since 2003?

You've got to remember tman that this is a very new feeling for any Welshman. They've never been higher and like a fat weedy kid who reached the podium because the other boys are sick this is a proud moment. Let them have their moment. This is a banter thread isn't it?

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else think the top 3 Elite sounds like a brand of cheap condoms?

Cheap condoms just sound about the right price for such a brief life. Can't be throwing gold leaf ones into the Thames now, can we?