Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

First topic message reminder :

This is a farce, I know I will get ripped apart for this, but it is becoming a joke, what I have just seen in this first half between Leinster and Cardiff is a joke. How is Isa Nacewa still on the field, then going down like he has just been shot to milk a pen on half time. FFS

Also, do not get me started with the scrum, the young Cardiff boy Kieron Assirati is doing a number on Cain Healy yet the ref is letting Cain Healy get away with murder.

2017, Pro14, nothing changes.

Anyway, onto the second half.

Oh, just to edit, I forgot to mention Kearnys shoulder tackle when Cardiff were breaking through that was left unpunished by both Brace and Fitzgibbon. Whate a joke.

Well someone answered it but apparently that answer doesnt suit you

Subtle change in question ld well done.

marty2086 wrote:Generally because they'll support Leinster and be biased towards them but as I said some people don't understand the difference between bias and a conflict of interest

Not in our league ? Surely ? You have been telling me that this type of thing does not go on.

Good gosh, those IRFU members must all be tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

Thank you martyn, you have just done it, debate over.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Generally because they'll support Leinster and be biased towards them but as I said some people don't understand the difference between bias and a conflict of interest

Not in our league ? Surely ? You have been telling me that this type of thing does not go on.

Good gosh, those IRFU members must all be tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

Thank you martyn, you have just done it, debate over.

Done what exactly?

As stated theres a difference between bias and conflict of interest, you're claiming a conflict, this is because of a bias

LordDowlais wrote:Anyone, anyone on here care to amuse me, and answer the question.

Why don't Leinster referees, ref Leinster in the Pro14 ?

They have.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Generally because they'll support Leinster and be biased towards them but as I said some people don't understand the difference between bias and a conflict of interest

Not in our league ? Surely ? You have been telling me that this type of thing does not go on.

Good gosh, those IRFU members must all be tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

Thank you martyn, you have just done it, debate over.

Done what exactly?

As stated theres a difference between bias and conflict of interest, you're claiming a conflict, this is because of a bias

And by the way, its more the avoidance of perception they are trying to avoid than actual bias

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Generally because they'll support Leinster and be biased towards them but as I said some people don't understand the difference between bias and a conflict of interest

Not in our league ? Surely ? You have been telling me that this type of thing does not go on.

Good gosh, those IRFU members must all be tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

Thank you martyn, you have just done it, debate over.

Didn't you ask Marty to debate like an adult?

I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

Anyway, I bid you all, Good Night.

And be safe out there.

And if you cannot be safe, be careful.

Don't you mean hear?

Its hardly nit picking when bias can exist in any form of life, like creating conspiracy theories as to why a team lost a game even though they and you say the better team won

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, I bid you all, Good Night.

And be safe out there.

And if you cannot be safe, be careful.

Bedtime already?

Hmmm.

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

Yet ld himself disagrees that the irfu have excluded Leinster refs from reffing Leinster because of where they are from. Or he's actually acknowledged his own change of mind refreshingly.

Id say there was no bias at all - but the use of non neutral officials makes it easy to see bias if you want to and leaves the league open to accusations of bias

Jesus LD will you give it a rest. We all know your opinion on this very well but the forum's continuously being hijacked by this meaningless subject and it's been done to death. Nothing's going to change while there are so few refs of any quality.

TJ wrote:Id say there was no bias at all - but the use of non neutral officials makes it easy to see bias if you want to and leaves the league open to accusations of bias

I'd have to agree TJ and the Pro 14 are trying to get neutral refs for the games, but they need the Unions with less referees producing more than the countries with more resourses, so it won't be easy.

There hasn't been a forum I've seen where after a team loses a game a certain section of the fans don't blame the ref. It happens every game. Your team lose and a section of the fans will blame the ref. Not having neutral refs makes it easier. Even if there are neutral refs it will not stop the fans blaming the ref, but it will remove a bias argument. I also don't think the Welsh are worse than anyone else for this, its just that Welsh teams lose more often so you notice it more, Scottish and Irish teams lost 27 games last season whereas Welsh teams lost 41, giving Welsh fans 1.5 times more chances to blame the ref. Overall I think its about the same % in each country will blame the ref after every loss.

For fans blaming ref, I think we all agree that Owns did a fine job with the final but some comments from:
http://www.the42.ie/munster-scarlets-report-pro12-final-3412385-May2017/

"Did anyone else hear the touch judge tell owens number 16 offside for last try and he did nothing. Not that it made a difference but poor from a world class referee."
"he didnt bother reffing the scrum either , look at the Beirne try before half time , kilcoyne destroyed their prop who stood up , no call , the 3rd try was a foreard pass , he is a celebrity not a ref"
"3 big beatings at the Aviva , scarlets stopped stander , managed to neutralize the maul , owens didnt ref the scrum , game over"

No comments of bias though, having Neutral refs will not stop fans blaming the ref for losses, it will only stop them blaming bias on the decisions they don't agree with.

The only difference having neutral refs would have made to this discussion is that instead of blaming bias for the ref decision to issue a yellow instead of a red, there would be complaints about the referee standards in the Pro 14.

Referees are aspiring to better things just like the players are. The ultimate aim for all these refs is to one day ref at the top level such as world cup finals and the 6 nations. So why in the name of god would a ref, from lets say Munster destroy his aspirations just to give Leinster the upper hand in a pro14 game?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Referees are aspiring to better things just like the players are. The ultimate aim for all these refs is to one day ref at the top level such as world cup finals and the 6 nations. So why in the name of god would a ref, from lets say Munster destroy his aspirations just to give Leinster the upper hand in a pro14 game?

Apparently because the IRFU pay the refs and some of the players they'll be biased because.....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

Why does it matter who the employer is?

it wasn't legitimate MD - they guy touched the line. simple as.

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

Why does it matter who the employer is?

Because the employer can decide whether the referee gets more opportunities. It's the same conflict of interest as boxing promoters picking the referees.

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

Why does it matter who the employer is?

Rory said LDs evidence is weak, so I provided a case with stronger evidence.

Well, they certainly haven't been doing a good job in recent years. I'm surprised they haven't been dealt with by the IRFU mafia.

TJ wrote:it wasn't legitimate MD - they guy touched the line.  simple as.

Do you not think it is more likely that the TMO was an agent of the SRU?

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

Why does it matter who the employer is?

Because the employer can decide whether the referee gets more opportunities. It's the same conflict of interest as boxing promoters picking the referees.

Except in boxing the promoters interest is in their fighter, the unions also have a stake in the Pro14 so it would be against their interests to damage the league

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

Why does it matter who the employer is?

Rory said LDs evidence is weak, so I provided a case with stronger evidence.

No you didn't.

marty2086 wrote:Except in boxing the promoters interest is in their fighter, the unions also have a stake in the Pro14 so it would be against their interests to damage the league

But it doesn't even have to be conscious. They get a specific impression of the referees based on media reports in their country, fan responses etc.

Not to mention its the league who appoints refs not the individual unions

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I just wanted to here it from him.

But he just's want's to nit pick.

So do we all agree then ? There could be bias in our league, the IRFU seem to think so.

The language you are using is important here, and I would say that you are being clever if I thought you were capable of it. How could anyone disagree that there "could" be bias, in any sporting league? Or by any referee, nation etc. But if you want to make a convincing case that there is bias in the league, you have to provide half decent evidence. Your evidence is weak, to say the least.

A more convincing case would be the SRU employee disallowing a legitimate try against an SRU team after the ref awarded it.

Why does it matter who the employer is?

Rory said LDs evidence is weak, so I provided a case with stronger evidence.

No you didn't.

Yes I did.

Haven’t read through this whole thread, so apologies if this has been suggested already, but I think there would be real merit in bringing the costs/recruitment/training/ performance management etc under the control of the Pro14 at a central level, with each union paying an equal share of the costs incurred.

That way the employer of the refs would be a totally neutral organisation, the refs would get the same training which would hopefully remove any inconsistencies in terms of how or what each union trains their referees.  They could also work with the like of the BT prem or the super 6 semi pro league the SRU are setting up (or similar league structures in the other nations), to train up refs with further experience being gained through that route.

That in theory would remove any accusations of bias, as they are not employed by any nation so would in theory have no allegiance, beyond their own nationality, but given this is a club game and not a country this hopefully shouldn’t be an issue as they are not benefiting their country merely a team that forms part of the league they work for.  It would also hopefully reduce  any inconsistency in interpretation of the laws as they will receive the same training from the pro14 overall.

For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

EWT Spoons wrote:Haven’t read through this whole thread

Go on have a skim through it, you will be enlightened.

EWT Spoons wrote:That way the employer of the refs would be a totally neutral organisation, the refs would get the same training which would hopefully remove any inconsistencies in terms of how or what each union trains their referees. They could also work with the like of the BT prem or the super 6 semi pro league the SRU are setting up (or similar league structures in the other nations), to train up refs with further experience being gained through that route.

Exactly, and that is what I was saying earlier on in this thread.

EWT Spoons wrote:That in theory would remove any accusations of bias, as they are not employed by any nation so would in theory have no allegiance, beyond their own nationality, but given this is a club game and not a country this hopefully shouldn’t be an issue as they are not benefiting their country merely a team that forms part of the league they work for. It would also hopefully reduce any inconsistency in interpretation of the laws as they will receive the same training from the pro14 overall.

Again, well said.

EWT Spoons wrote:For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

Ah, but there is bias, marty himself has even admitted to it.

Yet you disagree that there is bias in relation to an irish ref reffing an irish team for example.

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

Ah, but there is bias, marty himself has even admitted to it.
 

Except I was wrong in my wording since you can only be bias through an overt act

EWT Spoons wrote:Haven’t read through this whole thread, so apologies if this has been suggested already, but I think there would be real merit in bringing the costs/recruitment/training/ performance management etc under the control of the Pro14 at a central level, with each union paying an equal share of the costs incurred.

That way the employer of the refs would be a totally neutral organisation, the refs would get the same training which would hopefully remove any inconsistencies in terms of how or what each union trains their referees.  They could also work with the like of the BT prem or the super 6 semi pro league the SRU are setting up (or similar league structures in the other nations), to train up refs with further experience being gained through that route.

That in theory would remove any accusations of bias, as they are not employed by any nation so would in theory have no allegiance, beyond their own nationality, but given this is a club game and not a country this hopefully shouldn’t be an issue as they are not benefiting their country merely a team that forms part of the league they work for.  It would also hopefully reduce  any inconsistency in interpretation of the laws as they will receive the same training from the pro14 overall.

For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

The problem is that the refs come up through the individual systems run by the unions, how can Pro14 be apart of something they have no stake in?

WR also require the refs to belong to a union so if you put the refs under the Pro14 banner they may miss out on Test rugby

The only place I hear the moaning about who pays the refs is on here, nationality I hear constantly elsewhere and most of it is based on perception rather than reality when Irish teams up until about a year ago were losing about 60% of games reffed by IRFU referees, despite almost dominating the league.

I also heard complaints on the terrace about Neil Patterson an SRU ref, taking charge of Ulster because he is originally from NI.

You rarely if ever here this directed at players do you who have grown up supporting wasps say and go on to play for bath etc.

It might be oversimplifying it, but…

Let the unions bring through the refs to get to the point where they are eligible for pro14 level games.  At that point they are moved to the pro14 central ref control, they go through further training to make sure they are consistent etc  If they are good enough then then stay with pro14, if they’re not they can stay with their union for domestic leagues etc, or try again to be eligible for pro14 down the line (which I assume is sort of the process now anyway).

That ensures that they are no longer union controlled when they are refereeing pro14 games.

The WR requirement is slightly more of an issue, but I’m sure there is a way round that.  Such as for international purposes they are aligned to their union but for the league their employers are Pro14.

I’m not saying my suggestion is perfect, I just think having the league employing the refs makes sense.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You rarely if ever here this directed at players do you who have grown up supporting wasps say and go on to play for bath etc.

The only time I can remember is Ben Botica in the Challenge Cup Final when he kicked the ball back to Montpellier when the clock was red and Quins were trailing

As an Ulster fan I hate seeing Lacey or Clancy reffing Ulster against any team, just feels like their interpretation never matches Ulsters approach

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

Ah, but there is bias, marty himself has even admitted to it.
 

Except I was wrong in my wording since you can only be bias through an overt act

FFS are you two still going on...

You have beaten my kids record for bickering... You may even be on track to beat my wifes record for nagging..

Its time to kiss and make up now ....

EWT Spoons wrote:It might be oversimplifying it, but…

Let the unions bring through the coaches to get to the point where they are eligible for pro14 level games.  At that point they are moved to the pro14 central ref control, they go through further training to make sure they are consistent etc  If they are good enough then then stay with pro14, if they’re not they can stay with their union for domestic leagues etc, or try again to be eligible for pro14 down the line (which I assume is sort of the process now anyway).

That ensures that they are no longer union controlled when they are refereeing pro14 games.

The WR requirement is slightly more of an issue, but I’m sure there is a way round that.  Such as for international purposes they are aligned to their union but for the league their employers are Pro14.

I’m not saying my suggestion is perfect, I just think having the league employing the refs makes sense.

Again, well said. I could not agree with this more.

Good luck getting marty to agree with you though.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

Ah, but there is bias, marty himself has even admitted to it.
 

Except I was wrong in my wording since you can only be bias through an overt act

No one can be bias. Just like no one can be fear.

They can be biased or afraid though.

People can also be a pair of t0ssers.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:For the record I’m not accusing any ref of bias etc, but this thread clearly proves that some believe that to be the case

Ah, but there is bias, marty himself has even admitted to it.
 

Except I was wrong in my wording since you can only be bias through an overt act

No one can be bias. Just like no one can be fear.

They can be biased or afraid though.

People can also be a pair of t0ssers.

You can't say they are biased though without an act though, there can be the perception they may be

I would have put you under the singular for being a t0$$er but if you qualify as a pair fair play for owning up

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people write 'I may be bias'. No one can be bias itself. Not even Scarlets fans.

Wow. You remember something i wrote weeks ago but not the pages and pages of shyte that marto and the lord have written since? Good man!

St John The Enforcer wrote:You remember something i wrote weeks ago but not the pages and pages of shyte that marto and the lord have written since?

So much shyte that you felt the urge to not only read all of it, but to comment on it as well.

The few bits I read were enough to convince me that it was probably all the same

St John The Enforcer wrote:Wow. You remember something i wrote weeks ago but not the pages and pages of shyte that marto and the lord have written since? Good man!

I only remember when someone posts something trying to make us look like idiots only to look like an complete idiot themselves. It was pure gold.

Happy to help kepe you amused bud.

St John The Enforcer wrote:The few bits I read were enough to convince me that it was probably all the same

So how do you know it was ALL shyte.

Yet you felt so compelled to type your shyte on here to tell us.