England vs West Indies - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!

[James100]

I believe Holder said that Gabriel wasn't fully recovered from injury at the toss this morning. Still, Cummins would have been the one to miss out and he's the only one going under 3 an over.

[LionsV2]

Class act this pair, says a lot that they cover for the fact we're lacking three top order batsmen.

[msp83]

Cook and Root should get themselves out or retire and give the rest of the lineup a chance to have a bit of a knock. Else, Stokes and co will never get a chance against this lot, even they too deserve some free and easy test runs afterall!

[msp83]

Anderson and Broad playing this game for the pink ball experience is important from an England point of view. Else, just can't see the need for them to take to the park for the rest of the series. TRJ, Woakes and Stokes with Ali for company would be plenty and some more for this joke of a team that the West Indies have put on the park. On a good day, can expect Brathwaite and Chase to get some runs and even play an innings or 2 of substance. Holder might turn out to be a better contributer with the bat rather than with the ball though fr some strange and stupid reasons he's playing as one of 4 bowlers. Rest should be as easy as they ever would get for England.

[msp83]

Will Root go pass Lara's record? Great opportunity for him!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good day for the lads who are #catchinSachin

[msp83]

Good day for the lads who are #catchinSachin

Unless they themselves mess it up, it will be an absolutely outstanding day for them.

[msp83]

England should have invited the Zimbabwe team instead. In terms of quality, they wouldn't have been much better though better they sure are, at least they would have wanted to play some test cricket!

[msp83]

Root is slowing down!! Crack on and get to that double ton before the close, anything to make this a touch interesting. The damn ball isn't even doing much in the dark!

[Duty281]

Fine start from England. The new ball wreaks havoc, so for England to only lose two is decent enough.

Now power on. Centuries for these two...

Yes, centuries for these two. Love Cook to bits.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Root is slowing down!! Crack on and get to that double ton before the close, anything to make this a touch interesting. The damn ball isn't even doing much in the dark!

Probably because it isn't dark

[msp83]

The 2nd new ball and the possible change in weather the only hope for the West Indies today.
We have had one-sided test matches always, and this is not even a day's play yet. But the sad thing is that the West Indies just don't seem up for it at all. Class players like Root and Cook have to basically battle against themselves, to keep going when there is no challenge as such. The England top order problems made sure they didn't have an easy start with 2 down for less than 50 yet again, but ones they saw the first session through, there was no stopping them one bit.
After the terribly one-sided Sri Lanka-India series, and the proposed overdose of the same garbage later this year itself, this is just too hard to take. In Lanka, with the likes of Kusal Mendis, Lakshan Sandakan and Niroshan Dikwela, there is some hope, but for the West Indies, no one is bothered, the administrators or the players. They play test cricket just to keep the funds coming, nothing else!

[msp83]

It was a good innings from Root, he had slowed down just a touch, perhaps getting ready for the new ball. Perhaps he overestimated the West Indies bowling and then at that moment, Roach produced the 2nd good ball of the day for the West Indies. He's been lucky that both of them got him wickets too!

[msp83]

Holder is a complete joke! Just when they got Root, just when Dawid Malan, fighting for his place and inexperienced at this level comes to the crease, he presence him with the massive challenge of the greatest offspinner ever to have walked the planet, Krigg Brathwaite!!!

[compelling and rich]

been out all day\night, just caught the score.

great batting by root and cook?
pink ball not doing anything?
or just a really poor west indies attack?

or all of above?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

been out all day\night, just caught the score.

great batting by root and cook?
pink ball not doing anything?
or just a really poor west indies attack?

or all of above?

Pink ball has swung tbf - Root/Cook batted well and everyone bar Roach has bowled poorly

[Gooseberry]

Root needs to convert more 136's to 137's

[VTR]

We won't know if this is a good score until both sides have batted!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good day for the lads who are #catchinSachin

I'd be ok with letting Cook bat five days in aid of this #catchinSachin

[guildfordbat]

Saw very little after the opening session but would seem to have been a masterful display of concentration from Cook. Not easy to maintain concentration throughout a whole day and fully cut out mistakes when the bowling is regularly over the shop.

[dummy_half]

Saw very little after the opening session but would seem to have been a masterful display of concentration from Cook. Not easy to maintain concentration throughout a whole day and fully cut out mistakes when the bowling is regularly over the shop.

An innings Boycott would have been proud of - 150 in the day and barely an aggressive stroke played, just clipped off his legs or cut from short and wide.

Really I can only think of Graeme Smith of recent batsmen who could match Cook for powers of concentration. Others may be more flamboyant, but very few more effective.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Strpng batting by Cook and Root - and good to see Malan getting a start. WIndies sounded very disappointing (even allowing for lowish expectations). TMS commentators moaning most of the day about bowlers offering too many gift wrapped boundary scoring opportunities for the batsman to release any pressure that might be building.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Some thoughts from me, having watched nearly the whole day (and tuned into the last hour or so on TMS). Root and Cook were superb, in their usual fairly contrasting styles. Cook just feasted on the numerous (more on that later) tasty morsels offeres up by the West Indies attack. Root was not quite at his fluent best, but still played beautifully and more expansively than Cook. Some lovely drives, but again was offered up more than enough bad balls to dispatch. His wicket came as a complete surprise TBH, but while he'd have liked to go on and make a big one I doubt he'd be too upset.

Malan had a slice of luck with a dropped catch, but benefitted from some odd captaincy and apparently looked increasingly fluent by the close of play. Here's hoping he can go on tomorrow and make a decent score.

Stoneman got a very good ball, and will be hoping he doesn't have too many more of those with his name on them in this series. Can't really make a judgement on that one innings. Wesley played a pretty ordinary shot, though the sequence of balls (two outswingers followed by one which went straight on) was decent, probably more by accident TBH.

As for WI, they were poor. Roach bowled OK, but still far too many loose deliveries fo me. At least he found something in the air and off the pitch at times. Joseph was awful, no control and seemed well down on pace from when I saw him a few months back. Cummins started pretty well, and in general went OK, though seemed to struggle as the day wore on. Chase was awful. I think there's a bit in the pitch for spinners, and a couple gripped, but he really struggled to find a consistent line and length, and was duly picked off. Holder, for his pace, bowled far too many bad balls, and his tactic of going around the wicket to Cook was baffling.

Their fielding was shocking. Dropped the only chance that came their way and numerous misfields, countless fumbles, etc. Just as bad was the lack of energy. Even when England lost two early wickets they looked flat, and Holding highlighted how often they simply weren't even throwing the ball in. Thought Holder's captaincy was OK-ish for most of the day - you can only do so much when your bowlers are spraying it everywhere - though would have liked to see some more specific plans when it flattened out (they never had a man catching on the drive for instance). His decisions around the second new ball were fairly baffling though, including bowling Brathwaite and Chase for the final two overs (Malan must have been overjoyed), though in the 6 overs of seam WI weren't exactlly threatening, so perhaps it didn't make much difference.

Sorry if that comes across as overly critical, and take nothing away from Root and Cook, but after a decent performance in a hard fought series in the UAE, and some promising warm-ups, it was disappointing to see WI revert to type.

[Duty281]

Good day for England; been a touch disappointed by the Caribbean side. Great chance for Cook to fetch himself a treble ton if he re-settles in the first hour of the morning afternoon.

[Gooseberry]

We won't know if this is a good score until both sides have batted!

Do you honestly see Windies making 400 on any surface?

Theres been a fair bit of swing and its not slow, England have no excuse for not making life difficult for them. The fact is the bowling has been wild and inconsistent. Good balls have troubled the batsmen, especially early on. Youd expect ANderson Broad and TRJ to be far more accurate and get the same if not more form the ball and pitch.

And frankly 348-3 is a good score in any conditions against any attack. Its a fabulous position to be in going into day 2. The could well be declaring for 600+ at tea (supper?).

[guildfordbat]

Goose - you of all people should have spotted the p*ss taking element of VTR's post!

MfC - critical? Yes but deservedly so, an excellent report. Thanks.

[Gooseberry]

Goose - you of all people should have spotted  the p*ss taking element of VTR's post!

MfC - critical? Yes but deservedly so, an excellent report. Thanks.

Haha fair enough! Yes for once the cliche is so clearly not applicable.

I would say in all this though that despite it being a fab position for England its only really confirmed the fears we had. The disparity between Cook/Root and the rest of the England "batsmen" is huge. Malan may still be in but hes rode his luck to be there and struggled to score. Stoneman yes too early to judge but its frankly more of the same. Westley is now 6 innings into his career and has passed 30 once.

Its not ideal.

[VTR]

Yes, that was of course a tongue in cheek comment. The Windies were actually worse than expected, and expectations were at an all-time low to start with. Most Division 2 county sides would bowl better than that

[guildfordbat]

Goose - I fully agree it's not ideal although perhaps we need to be more grateful for the presence of Cook and Root. Without them, there would be little disparity amongst England's batsmen!

Atherton (of the Sky regulars, I like him the most) emphasised yesterday that it's unrealistic to expect all eleven in any Test team to be of the same top class and particularly at the same time.

That's not meant to make light of the issue but it's probably a fairly natural part of a team's transformation from one generation to the next.

Similar concerns may in time relate to England's seam attack. Anderson and Broad will be gone one day (sorry, Alfie, but it will happen eventually!). Although there are a fair few contenders around to replace them, we cannot say with certainty that they will successfully do so, let alone immediately.

[dummy_half]

Stoneman was unlucky in getting one of the few really good balls of the day, so it's obviously much too early to draw any conclusions there.

I am starting to have concerns over Westley - he looked organised on debut, but has been out to batting mistakes rather than great bowling a few times already. Yesterday got too far across in trying to play a fairly straight ball through mid wicket, although I understand the bowler did a pretty good job setting it up with a couple of away swingers first.

Malan has a chance now to play an innings that will establish himself for a few more games - no pressure from the scoreboard and a bowling attack that has been rather ground down yesterday should allow him to play quite naturally after the first half hour or so.

As for Cook, well just more of the same please. Still a long way to go to be #catchinsachin, and he'll rarely face such friendly bowling.

Windies a big disappointment - some really odd selections coming back to bite them. Hopefully Shannon Gabriel will be fit for the next match and they pick a specialist spinner (Bishoo). Also as a young team surely they should be flying around in the field to try and create some pressure, but it's been quite lacklustre.

Too early to pass judgement on day/night cricket, although I note comments from the TMS commentators that it was sometimes impossible to pick up the ball crossing the outfield during the evening session (dusk rather than dark and purely flood-lit). The ball and playing conditions didn't seem though to make much difference on what was a nice evening. Be interesting to see how it plays on a cooler and cloudy evening...

[Gooseberry]

Goose - I fully agree it's not ideal although perhaps we need to be more grateful for the presence of Cook and Root. Without them, there would be little disparity amongst England's batsmen!

Atherton (of the Sky regulars, I like him the most) emphasised yesterday that it's unrealistic to expect all eleven in any Test team to be of the same top class and particularly at the same time.

That's not meant to make light of the issue but it's probably a fairly natural part of a team's transformation from one generation to the next.

Similar concerns may in time relate to England's seam attack. Anderson and Broad will be gone one day (sorry, Alfie, but it will happen eventually!). Although there are a fair few contenders around to replace them, we cannot say with certainty that they will successfully do so immediately.

Yes I completely agree with that but ... there needs to be pl;ayers at least worth a spot if ithey are going to go from being decent to good.
They get away with it at home where sides either dont turn up or cant handle anderson/broad in favourable conditions.

Its frustrating too.. they have the backbone of an extremely good side...and are blessed to have Bairstow, Moeen and Stokes to cover for the issues up the order.

The problems will really hit when peopel start to retire..its entirely possible that Cook wont have a partner let a lone a replacement by the time he retires. Anderson and Broad too...theres been a lot of promising seamers but theyve tended to fade and dissapear...the hopes for Wood seem to have vanished. Woakes has yet to really establish himself. TRJ is no spring chicken.  In two years time we could be missing 3 of those "first pick" players, and not hav ethe get out of jail free card to play.

You look back now at some of the guys who managed to average in the low 30s playing in the top 3 and wonder if they were jettisoned too soon. Its gone from " not as good" to "utter rubbish" as England churn through every batsman whos made a century in Div 2. (Exageratted to highlight the point)


You can only pick whats available, but when you drop that every 6 months then either you made the wrong selection time and again ( in which case why is Bayliss still employed?) or the player youre replacing with is likely even less good. An over simplification of course ... and theres only really Hales that screams to me as a horrid mistake but we dont seem any closer to the solution after god knows how many years of trying.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I have to say alll the comments I've seen from people on twitter who were there (and who I follow) said it was a great experience under lights - although that may have been the alcohol talking!

[dummy_half]

...

Atherton (of the Sky regulars, I like him the most) emphasised yesterday that it's unrealistic to expect all eleven in any Test team to be of the same top class and particularly at the same time.

That's not meant to make light of the issue but it's probably a fairly natural part of a team's transformation from one generation to the next.

...

David Campese said of top (RWC winning) rugby teams that they needed 5 world class players, 5 very good ones and 5 good ones. The equivalent for cricket would be something like 4, 4 and 3. At present, England have 4 world class or recently world class players in Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson, 4 very good ones in Stokes, Bairstow, Ali and Woakes (with CW and LJB getting close to world class) and 3 who still have much to prove. Unfortunately the 3 with much to prove are all specialist batsmen, so we are somewhat unbalanced at the moment. Good thing someone from the all rounders is contributing regularly with the bat.

[alfie]

Hi guildford and goose

My take on the issues of unsatisfactory batsmen : the problem for England over the last three years arises from the loss of one too many established players at once. After Strauss departed there was - apparently - time to find a new opener while the middle order remained solid : but as we all know a succession of players have been picked and discarded - with none yet managing to nail down a permanent spot. This , I think , is a little surprising : you'd think someone would prove to have what it takes by now . Is it poor initial selection ; lack of patience leading to players being discarded too quickly - or that somehow the art of opening the batting has been lost in England ? Have too many counties employed Kolpaks and imports to head their orders ? I can't believe there isn't a competent English opener out there somewhere ...I do suspect the selectors have been a bit to blame here ; though we can have a right old argument about exactly where they've gone wrong ! Do think the importance of limited overs cricket has contributed in assisting the rise of the aggressive opener (Roy , Hales , etc) and these may perhaps have held back the development of more "classical " openers ?

But aside from all that : even with the opening issue giving problems , the situation was quite manageable until Trott , Pietersen and Bell all left - one way or another - within a pretty short time . It simply meant there were too many holes in the boat at once ... When you have just one spot to fill you can afford to carry a promising player for quite a long time ( as , arguably , Bell himself was carried initially ) while the rest of the order thrives around him : not so when there are three spots to fill.
Do we trace this back to the management being too hasty in dispensing with Kevin Pietersen ? (Touchy subject . I know But whatever the rights and wrongs of the matter , I am fairly sure they believed at the time that Ian Bell would continue rather longer than he did ; and probably also assumed that another middle order player would be installed within a year or two. They might have been right if not for the sad case of Taylor - who looked to me at least to have fine prospects had his health issues not cut his career short ; we will never really know , alas.
Moeen also - while proving a capable all rounder - has not quite ever convinced as a top five bat ; which is why they tend to bump YJB up when they want to pick an extra bowler (and that's another can of worms I don't want to open !)
Whatever : result is they still haven't filled any of these spots ; so plugging the gaps is now urgent . The bad thing then is no one is getting long enough to prove themselves ...

More to follow later ...have to go now.

[KP_fan]

by the look of scorecard on D1
this will be a one sided and boring series
like the recently concluded India-Lanka series.

[sirfredperry]

I'm certainly not feeling sorry for the Windies. It should be remembered that England went 16 years (1974 to 1990) without winning a SINGLE TEST against WI.
   However, it would be nice to have a hard-fought, close Test. None so far in this English summer have fitted that description.

[dummy_half]

Alfie

Add to your comment that a bit of luck also plays its part. Hameed made a very promising start in India but then got his injury and has struggled to come back to form over this summer. I didn't realise until a couple of weeks ago that he actually still has some metalwork in his hand. In the long run, I suspect he will establish himself at the top of the order, but probably just in time for Cook to retire...

Taylor is obviously another case of bad luck.

I don't think the KP controversy really made that much difference as he's hardly been able to string two matches together for the last 3 years, and 5 day Test cricket is much more physically demanding than T20...

It seems at the moment the gap between CC and Test cricket is particularly wide, with guys in good first class form struggling with the step up (Lyth when he was picked, Ballance earlier this summer). A good point also about the perceived importance of 50 and 20 over cricket to the counties to the detriment of 4 day matches, and how this promotes aggressive stroke players at the expense of more technically correct batsmen.

I'm really not sure what the answer is, although I think giving the Test players more freedom to play in County matches would help - surely giving the up and coming batsmen the opportunity to face Anderson and Broad in county matches would be a good test.

[VTR]

I haven't been following social media over the last day or so, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some calls out there for Lyth to be recalled to the Test team after his 161 in a T20 last night!

[dummy_half]

I haven't been following social media over the last day or so, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some calls out there for Lyth to be recalled to the Test team after his 161 in a T20 last night!

To open the batting with Hales, Roy to come in at 3

[alfie]

Hi Dummy_half

Yes the Hameed injury was an unfortunate one . I do think he will be back - as you say , the injury issues have surely contributed to his loss of form. Don't want to hex him ; but if I am any judge of a cricketer he is far and away the best equipped of any of the openers England have tried since Strauss left and will play a lot of Test Matches - hopefully some at least soon enough to be in partnership with Cook !
Further to my thoughts on the middle order : I don't know how many ineligible batsmen are currently in the county scene ; but with 18 counties if each had just three bats for consideration then (even allowing for the too old and already in ) there are a very healthy number to choose from...and it isn't as if they have to find a new KP or a second Root : with the latter in place along with Cook and the excellent all rounders , all that is needed is two reasonably solid players who can be relied upon to score fairly regular fifties with the odd larger contribution , and generally offer sufficient support to the big guns that the team isn't constantly losing four wickets for next to nothing... Collingwood type records rather than Thorpe , say ?
In fact , fixing one of the spots - preferably three - would probably enable the search for the perfect five to proceed with a little less urgency ...and a little less pressure on the newcomers to fire immediately...

Mind you I won't complain if an obvious star arrives and announces himself from the off in the manner of Cook , Root and previous such players like KP and Strauss !

Then all we have to do is start worrying about the bowling...

[guildfordbat]

...

I'm really not sure what the answer is, although I think giving the Test players more freedom to play in County matches would help - surely giving the up and coming batsmen the opportunity to face Anderson and Broad in county matches would be a good test.

Dummy - agreed. It would also improve attendances for CC matches. You highlight one of the flip sides of central contracts.

[Gooseberry]

Fort me the standard of CC and pitches is certainly part of the problem. Getting the better bowlers in more woudl help a bit ...but maybe not realistic in the wider picture of limiting their workloads and having them in the games the counties want them for (profitable T20s) 
We see guys averaging way over 50 in the CC step up and be unable to cope with test cricket.
Somethings not right there.
I dont think numbers/foriegners is a big contributer. With the limits and funding restrictions in place theres not an excessive number of non EQ players on the circuit, and most of theose that are there are pretty decent. The retired/past it ex england players are arguably a bigger problem.
But even then theres no shortage of England qualified openers getting regular games .... certainly plenty enough that theres always 2 ort 3 names in the hat when they change the team every 6 months. Im more concerned about the quality of the first 4 or 5 choices than I am about whether theres 15 others playing.

Are the perfomance and Lions squads doing enough to help bridge the gap? It doenst look like it. Drive up standards in CC with a magic wand and invest more in the performance programme. Also look at the culture around the senior team and how new players are integrated and mentored (or not)

[dummy_half]

Alfie

Good point that what we need is middle order batsmen capable of averaging say 37 rather than 55 - the likes of Nasser Hussein or Gatting were made England captains with that sort of record, so it's not essential to find superstars for every spot as long as we have a couple of truly high class players in the line-up.

Bowling is currently OK (at least away from Asia), even allowing for the questions over Ali's viability as first choice spinner, but Anderson and Broad are clearly getting towards the end of their careers. Top class replacements are not obvious or at least proven as yet...

[alfie]

Well there is a lot of movement there for the bowlers this morning...but Roach seems more devoted to testing the edge of the cut strip and the forbearance of the umpire than threatening the batsman's defence...

[guildfordbat]

Well there is a lot of movement there for the bowlers this morning...but Roach seems more devoted to testing the edge of the cut strip and the forbearance of the umpire than threatening the batsman's defence...

Alifie - this afternoon. Afternoon.

[dummy_half]

Morning?

[VTR]

Re Nasser averaging 37 - in the 90's England team a guy who could average that was the superstar!

[dummy_half]

Re Nasser averaging 37 - in the 90's England team a guy who could average that was the superstar!

Fair point

[Gooseberry]

Runs flowing nicely for Cook and Malans still dug in. This games really going in one dirrection since those early wickets

[alfie]

Well there is a lot of movement there for the bowlers this morning...but Roach seems more devoted to testing the edge of the cut strip and the forbearance of the umpire than threatening the batsman's defence...

Alifie - this afternoon. Afternoon.

Or nighttime , from my viewpoint

Does get confusing...

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