Who has raised their stock, or dropped a stinker

First topic message reminder :

Following all the debates about the series and with the final matches completed, who do you think has raised their stock in terms of how they played, and who have done some reputation damage.

For me

The big raises are
JD
Webb
Henderson
Lawes
Teo
Sean O'Brien
Seymour (top try scorer)


The big drops
Farrell
Cole
Sexton
AWJ
The geographical 6 (but not their fault)

And for people asking why Itoje is not in the lists above, he gets a special mention as being so over hyped that it does not matter how he plays, it will be regarded as godlike. So he get the award
Excellent player, played some good stuff, but not quite as good as people say, lets not cream our pants too much, please he had a fine tour award.


I am sure there are a lot more you can add and discuss

Get a room boys.

LordDowlais wrote:Get a room boys.

Can Gwlad come too?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Re Leinster and Ireland feel free to point out anything I have said that isnt true.

Almost everything you post about Ireland losing and it always being the refs fault (approx 50% of your posting).

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Are you ok Cyril? Do you want to talk about it?

No chip, but happy to talk about it

I would have thought the chip is on your side with Ireland and Leinster not the powers they used to be (though still able to get the odd result when their blood is up).

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The day Farrell scores 28 points including 2 tries in a Heineken cup final and plays 10 in a Lions tour you might be able to claim he has surpassed Sexton until then Farrell is just another limited 10 hiding behind a big pack.

Farrell started at 10 for the 1st test - were you not paying attention as your hero wasnt on the pitch?

And so what about the 2011 cup final - Northamption shot their bolt in the first half. Like Ireland did v New Zealand in 2013. All Sexton can do is play well against England or English teams in Dublin. Other than that he is more hit and miss than a one-eyed tennis player.

Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The day Farrell scores 28 points including 2 tries in a Heineken cup final and plays 10 in a Lions tour you might be able to claim he has surpassed Sexton until then Farrell is just another limited 10 hiding behind a big pack.

Farrell started at 10 for the 1st test - were you not paying attention as your hero wasnt on the pitch?

And so what about the 2011 cup final - Northamption shot their bolt in the first half. Like Ireland did v New Zealand in 2013. All Sexton can do is play well against England or English teams in Dublin. Other than that he is more hit and miss than a one-eyed tennis player.

Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

So has Farrell. Already. At 25.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Re Leinster and Ireland feel free to point out anything I have said that isnt true.

Almost everything you post about Ireland losing and it always being the refs fault (approx 50% of your posting).

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Are you ok Cyril? Do you want to talk about it?

No chip, but happy to talk about it

I would have thought the chip is on your side with Ireland and Leinster not the powers they used to be (though still able to get the odd result when their blood is up).

Ireland came 2nd in the 6 nations and Leinster got to the semis in the champions cup. I dont think they are far off where they need to be.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The day Farrell scores 28 points including 2 tries in a Heineken cup final and plays 10 in a Lions tour you might be able to claim he has surpassed Sexton until then Farrell is just another limited 10 hiding behind a big pack.

Farrell started at 10 for the 1st test - were you not paying attention as your hero wasnt on the pitch?

And so what about the 2011 cup final - Northamption shot their bolt in the first half. Like Ireland did v New Zealand in 2013. All Sexton can do is play well against England or English teams in Dublin. Other than that he is more hit and miss than a one-eyed tennis player.

Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

So has Farrell. Already. At 25.

....as a centre

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The day Farrell scores 28 points including 2 tries in a Heineken cup final and plays 10 in a Lions tour you might be able to claim he has surpassed Sexton until then Farrell is just another limited 10 hiding behind a big pack.

Farrell started at 10 for the 1st test - were you not paying attention as your hero wasnt on the pitch?

And so what about the 2011 cup final - Northamption shot their bolt in the first half. Like Ireland did v New Zealand in 2013. All Sexton can do is play well against England or English teams in Dublin. Other than that he is more hit and miss than a one-eyed tennis player.

Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

So has Farrell. Already. At 25.

....as a centre

As both 10 and centre.

There seems to be a lot of envy over Sexton on here. His best years are behind him so cheer up, Farrell/Ford have plenty of time to improve and become really good players.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Re Leinster and Ireland feel free to point out anything I have said that isnt true.

Almost everything you post about Ireland losing and it always being the refs fault (approx 50% of your posting).

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Are you ok Cyril? Do you want to talk about it?

No chip, but happy to talk about it

I would have thought the chip is on your side with Ireland and Leinster not the powers they used to be (though still able to get the odd result when their blood is up).

Ireland came 2nd in the 6 nations and Leinster got to the semis in the champions cup. I dont think they are far off where they need to be.

Joint 4th in the 6 Nations.

To be honest in terms of silverware Sexton and Farrell Jr aren't far off each other.


The main difference is that Sexton hasn't won any notable silverware since 2015 at international level.

At club level nothing since 2013.


Oh and Farrell is 25, Sexton is 32.


Both very good players but Farrell edges Sexton slightly based on his biggest achievements being more recent.


As for the comparison to Healy, Farrell has more caps than him at the age of 25 and more points scored at international level.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

Very aggressive behaviour.

So when O'Driscoll started at 12 he was dropped and sh!t was he? Henshaw is dropped now is he after beginning as a 13? You don't know what you're talking about and having a temper tantrum about it doesnt make you right.

4 years ago Sexton for me was the best fly half in the world but niggling injuries seem to have taken a slight toll. He was getting better through the lions tours but the start was the worst I've ever seen him.

GunsGermsV2 wrote: As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

Sunwolves?

Must have missed that. Can you point it out to me - it must be on youtube, no?

beshocked wrote:To be honest in terms of silverware Sexton and Farrell Jr aren't far off each other.


The main difference is that Sexton hasn't won any notable silverware since 2015 at international level.

At club level nothing since 2013.


Oh and Farrell is 25, Sexton is 32.


Both very good players but Farrell edges Sexton slightly based on his biggest achievements being more recent.


As for the comparison to Healy, Farrell has more caps than him at the age of 25 and more points scored at international level.

Austin Healy was a very talented rugby player who was also very widely disliked. Very few players could start an International in as many different positions as he did, but a very different beast from Farrell (apart from being likable..)

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

Very aggressive behaviour.

So when O'Driscoll started at 12 he was dropped and sh!t was he? Henshaw is dropped now is he after beginning as a 13? You don't know what you're talking about and having a temper tantrum about it doesnt make you right.

Guns isn't an aggressive poster at all. You're reading something that isn't there. Not sure where the temper tantrum is.

Anyway, your examples aren't remotely comparable. You've picked two centres who moved within the centre positions. Farrell is a 10 who can play 12. It was expected that Te'o would remain at 12 with either Farrell or Sexton at 10. Sexton was clearly better on this tour but Gatland wanted to keep Farrell to kick. Might have been better to just let Sexton kick in hindsight?

Rory, Guns got banned a while back for being aggressive and insulting. You're right though, he's normally ok. Like Hartley

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Guns isn't an aggressive poster at all. You're reading something that isn't there. Not sure where the temper tantrum is.

Anyway, your examples aren't remotely comparable. You've picked two centres who moved within the centre positions. Farrell is a 10 who can play 12. It was expected that Te'o would remain at 12 with either Farrell or Sexton at 10. Sexton was clearly better on this tour but Gatland wanted to keep Farrell to kick. Might have been better to just let Sexton kick in hindsight?

Its comparable to the dropped comment to play 12. That doesnt make sense. You get dropped to the bench or off the team - like Kruis - but playing in a different position is not dropped.

Would Sexton have made the kick to win the second test or draw the third? I don't think so but we will never know. If picked I would have been cheering him on to do so as a Lions fan.

Disagree Sexton was better. Each to their own.

Saying aggressive was more of a 'calm down dear' post on my part, in response to the swearing and literally every club comment.

Cyril wrote:Rory, Guns got banned a while back for being aggressive and insulting. You're right though, he's normally ok. Like Hartley

Knowing this place, I highly doubt he was banned for anything of the sort. He probably just said something unfashionable or non-PC.

Well, they let him back in so it couldn't have been too 'unfashionable'.

Cyril wrote:Rory, Guns got banned a while back for being aggressive and insulting. You're right though, he's normally ok. Like Hartley

How do you know what I got banned for? It was actually for being sexist I think (never told) which I regret but I didnt realise the poster I was talking to was a woman either.

You would miss me Cyril if I was really banned. I know you would.

beshocked wrote:To be honest in terms of silverware Sexton and Farrell Jr aren't far off each other.


The main difference is that Sexton hasn't won any notable silverware since 2015 at international level.

At club level nothing since 2013.


Oh and Farrell is 25, Sexton is 32.


Both very good players but Farrell edges Sexton slightly based on his biggest achievements being more recent.


As for the comparison to Healy, Farrell has more caps than him at the age of 25 and more points scored at international level.

The Healy comparison was an exaggeration, Farrell is better than Healy. He is a good player of course but he did have a poor Lions tour and he is struggling to nail down a starting 10 position at international level.

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Yes he was dropped to 12 because he was sh1t.

As a rugby player Sexton has won against literally every team in club and international rugby. You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

Very aggressive behaviour.

So when O'Driscoll started at 12 he was dropped and sh!t was he? Henshaw is dropped now is he after beginning as a 13? You don't know what you're talking about and having a temper tantrum about it doesnt make you right.

Haha. Do you need a hug Michael?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Haha. Do you need a hug Michael?

No thanks. Over your tantrum now?

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Haha. Do you need a hug Michael?

No thanks. Over your tantrum now?

Are you sure you dont need a little one?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Haha. Do you need a hug Michael?

No thanks. Over your tantrum now?

Are you sure you dont need a little one?

Are we still talking about hugs? If you still want to know where I live - its not Brokeback Mountain.

The fact is that the Lions management decided that they needed both Sexton and Farrell on the pitch, because they decided they needed things that both players brought to the game and also decided that each on their own plus an aggressive 12 (i.e Teo) did not provide as much as they did together.

Given that the combo were part of a win and a draw from 2 games it is entirely possible they were correct to do so.

We may not like the game plan or every aspect of selection. (I don't, but then I have not entirely been a fan of Lions tours in the pro era) but the buck stops with the management not the players. If the players don't fit the management's particular take on how to play then they get dropped. The fact that Farrell played every minute of the tests suggests that to Gatland and co he was a very important part of  their game plan regardless of the statistics. That they also wanted Sexton on the pitch does not take away from that (quite the opposite)

And no I don't think its the same as the 2nd row debate.

That doesnt mean Farrell had a good tour. if you review his performances in all three tests objectively he was as much of a liability as he did anything good. Yes he deserves credit for nailing straight forward but critical kicks but defensively he was the weakest Lion, that's unquestionable. So for me for a player of his calibre you would expect more. 5/10 on his report card. Maybe a six if generous.

You could probably say something similar for Liam Williams, phenomenal in attack but his fielding was consistently poor. Daly, Watson, Davies, Murray and Sexton we the better backs over all three tests particularly the first three.

Both Farrell and Sexton are accomplished players. Neither had great tours but both have had good international careers so far.

Farrell Jr has tougher competition than Sexton at 10.

I'd give both players 6/10 personally.


lostinwales I like Healey. Think he's one of the best commentators too.


Healey is very much different to Farrell Jr agreed.

Guns, very unlike me to support BS, but you cannot use stats to criticise OF, especially the missed tackles. If a drift defence was played and he missed that many okay, but in a blitz/rush defence, his job is not to tackle, it's to force the ball back inside or a risky pass out wide. If he nails his man it is a bonus.

He is consistently the worst tackler for both Sarries and England but is consistently picked by both despite having stiff opposition for his place and in different positions for both sides. If he was considered weak in defence, he would be playing for neither side. EJ and MM do not stand for that sort of weakness.

I would agree he did not have a blistering series for the Lions, but he did what he was required to do. He was never going to be a player to cut defences apart with his running lines.

It is logical. If a player has a big weakness then they must have a corresponding strength otherwise they don't play.

Farrell has the obvious strength of being a great kicker, at least by reputation. You could argue though that that on its own is not enough given you have Sexton playing and Halfpenny in the wider squad. (Biggar too).

But they picked him, and they picked him despite shoehorning Sexton into the team and at the cost of leaving out a high performing centre (Te'o) or arguably Henderson. So either they decided Farrell offers enough overall to offset the missed tackles or that stuff like the defense stats were not important.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton played the third test with a broken wrist and still played well. Only missed 1 tackle for the series.

I thought you were exaggerating until I read the reports about his injuries. I'm in awe of Sexton for that level of commitment.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton played the third test with a broken wrist and still played well. Only missed 1 tackle for the series.

I thought you were exaggerating until I read the reports about his injuries. I'm in awe of Sexton for that level of commitment.

Yep, I think that puts it into perspective. I thought he had a better tour than OF, who I wasn't that impressed with. It does make me feel OF is a distributing 12 not a 10 anymore.

Hood83 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton played the third test with a broken wrist and still played well. Only missed 1 tackle for the series.

I thought you were exaggerating until I read the reports about his injuries. I'm in awe of Sexton for that level of commitment.

Yep, I think that puts it into perspective. I thought he had a better tour than OF, who I wasn't that impressed with. It does make me feel OF is a distributing 12 not a 10 anymore.

At international level there is a greater expectation on your flyhalf to be able to distribute across the backline and distribution continues to be Farrell's weakness. At club level it's not as noticeable, particularly with Goode as a wide playmaker and two bruising centres who will always make the hard yards from Farrell's short range passing which is excellent. The problems only start when the opposition defence nullify his short range options, Exeter did that in the AP and forced Farrell into uncomfortable long range passes (two interceptions and another turnover).

To be fair to Farrell that's about his only weakness these days, he even plays fairly flat (partly after being mentored by Sexton and BOD on the last tour). He makes a great foil at international level for less defensively able 10's hence his partnerships with Sexton for the Lions and Ford for England (Ford will never play for the Lions as long as Gatland continues to coach them).

formerly known as Sam wrote:To be fair to Farrell that's about his only weakness these days, he even plays fairly flat (partly after being mentored by Sexton and BOD on the last tour). He makes a great foil at international level for less defensively able 10's hence his partnerships with Sexton for the Lions and Ford for England (Ford will never play for the Lions as long as Gatland continues to coach them).

Owen Farrell's biggest weakness is his first up tackling and defensive positioning. But both those things he can improve on, he has time on his side after all.

Someone should tell Paul Gustard that one of the key elements to his defensive gameplan is a terrible defender

I'm sure the best defensive coach in the world would be keen to get that input from 606v2