Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

by KP_fan Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:25 am

So Dhoni is gone.....amidst lot of of glowing tributes...but we suspect he was asked to go...his time was up quite sometime back.....and the BCCI did it in a nice way...
It's also being said that the Champions Trophy will be his retirement tournament if he performs vs Eng...else this might be his end series

Ind ODI squad: KL Rahul, Shikhar Dhawan, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni, Manish Pandey, Kedar Jadhav, Yuvraj Singh, Ajinkya Rahane, Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Amit Mishra, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav

Ind T20I squad: KL Rahul, Mandeep Singh, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni (wk), Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Rishabh Pant (wk), Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Manish Pandey, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ashish Nehra

for completeness sake here are the Eng squads

England ODI squad:
Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Chris Woakes,
England T20I squad:
Moeen Ali, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Chris Jordan, Tymal Mills, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey,

by KP_fan Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:48 am

--The Indian squad itself is not the best possible

Yuvraj in both forms is regressive, fitness and reflexes are gone and we saw how limited he was in the T20 world cup.... as is the presence of Raina, (can't play spin nor short stuff)..... and Nehra( too old and too fragile ) in T20s.
India has plenty of talent to move beyond these...tried , tested and failed multiple times candidates

--India is going in with their best squads...Umesh, Ashwin, Jadeja are all in ...in preparation for the Champions Trophy

--Shami, Rohit and Jayant are still not fit.....it seems while Rahane, Pandya seem to have recovered.

by KP_fan Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:40 pm

My final assesment on Dhoni...

-- he was a very good WK in all conditions
-- a good batsman on flat patta pitches and mediocre in overseas conditions
--a good captain in limited over format in flat patta home conditions....and a medicore one overseas
-- a mediocre test captain in home flat patta conditions and a terrible one overseas

by Gooseberry Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:09 pm

I must admit I was surprised to see Yuvraj is still in the side. He may even outlast Dhoni.

Englands squads are pretty predictable. No great controversy. Mills getting in and Finn not is a thing and show England are trying to get over him.

A few of the players have been getting some warm ups in the Big Bash whichis a positive. How the test squad players react to the car crash of that series is certainly a thing; the likes of Moeen and Rashid have a fair bit to prove.

There shoulf be a more positive atmosphete and confidence around these squads. The selections have largely made themselves rather than been forced because someone had to play and theres noone who doesnt deserve to be there.

Maybe a tough harsh on a guy like Duckett but it does seem he blew any credit he had in his breif test career and was only ever a place sittter in limited overs.

Assuming Buttler does keep (theres 3 in the odi squad...) it will be interesting to see how he goes with the gloves, a solid performance could push Bayliss' agenda to get him keeping in the test side further.

Some talk of pressure on Morgan in the media. Its always been there, getting the job in the first place probably saved his career at a point where the internet wanted him dropped. Even batting pretty well for the last year hasn't stopped people (including me) believeing he was struggling. Its just an england captain thing ....i think we have just got conditioned to them being rubbish.

Both sides should be driven in this series and its nice to see both taking it seriously with their selections too.

by KP_fan Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:18 am

Eng are playing against an India-A side now......which is quite strong and on a given day may beat any full strength Indian-11

Brabourne stadium pitch does give some help to spinners and bounce to faster bowlers

by KP_fan Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:24 am

and on second look seam bowling a bit weak for the Ind-A side.....two Ranji medium pacers and allrounder Pandya playing his first game after dislocating showulder

by KP_fan Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:50 am

54 in the last 5 and 23 in the last over...Dhoni's 40 ball 68 blitz at the end gets India-A to 304
That still is par in my view and should be chasable by Eng that's full strength except Root
Unless the two wrist spinners that India is playing crumble the English batting

by KP_fan Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:51 pm

-- Kuldip bamboozled the English batsmen with his wrist spin chinaman and legbreaks....and picked wickets in heaps
3 wicket fell once when spinners were in tandem
and then 2 wickets again when they were in tandem

---Dhoni instead of pressing on with a few more overs with the spinners....when Eng was on the mat..... removed his main spinners trying to slip in cheap/ easy overs of lesser bowlers...

and he did the same again when they were 5 down

theoretical conserving his main spinner for later

Guess what---> there is no later.....

chicken defensive approach ...instead of going a few more overs for the kill with main bowlers when the opponent was on the mat....he took his foot of their neck...

and was left with 5 overs of specialist spinners still ............... Unutilized ............. and when he brings them back the game is gone..... inspite of a couple of wickets at the end

--this has been the story of Dhoni all the time...does not know how to use bowlers to win or set up games..

Silver lining for India...

1) Kuldeep's 5-for confirmed what we saw in him....a mystery wrist spinner, only 22 years old and ready to step in, in case of injuries or lack of form to Ashwin / jadeja

2) THE END of sufferance at the hands of Dhoni the captain....FOR GOOD

by Gooseberry Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:33 pm

This games asked a few questions for england about selections for the first ODI.
Billings has made a strong case, and although dawson got murded with the ball he played a key role with the bat.

by KP_fan Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:37 am

saw the highlights now....

--Billings batted well and Jake Ball bowled well....Ball was bending his back like he did in the test matches also....he is a good prospect.

--For India Yuvraj's was the best inning......looked in imperious touch and will demolish the spinners in this form...only way to trouble him could be bouncers when a bowler is really willing to bend his back and get it sharply upto his Head height

--Dhoni's reflexes have slowed compared to his peak days but he improvised as a batsman.....pre-empted and got into positions before the ball was delivered with great common sense.

Would be a delight to see these two bat at Nos 4 & 5 ( dunno which one of them will come at 4 ....but between them they will bat at 4 and 5)

--Rayadu staked a claim with a 100 for a slot that is being competed by Jadhav, Pandey, Rahane, Rahul and Raina between ODIs and T20

and as spinners there is Jadeja, Ashwin, Jayant ( will be back), Mishra, Axar and now Kuldeep has queued up to be in the reckoning

India has never had a wealth of such surplus resources before

by KP_fan Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:17 am

and today Rahane captaining India-A bowled Eng out for 280....they had them 210-9 at one point...Nadeem and Rasool the spinenrs bowled well. Surprisng that Ind had only 1 and a half spinner ( Rasool is an allrounder) and 4 seamers

by KP_fan Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:20 am

In addtion to Dhoni...Ind has played Samson, Ishan Kishan, Rishab Pant and Shedon Jackson...all batmen WK in the 2 practice games...

Further Rahul and Rayadu are back up keepers

India is in a hurry to find a batsman WK replacement for Dhoni it seems

by KP_fan Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:42 am

and India chase down 282 with nearly 11 overs to spare as if it was 182...they should have won the first game also and would have had anyone other than Dhoni been captaining

Rahane cracked 91 and got good batting practice ...he will open in ODIs
WK-Sheldon scored a ruin a ball 59
WK Pant only 19 years.....scored at 10 RPO for a 36 ball 59
WK Ishan Kishan got to bat with only a handful of runs remaining and made n.o 5*

India is overflowing with batting talent .....and so the likes of Dhoni, Raina, Rahane, Yuvraj have to be on their toes to hold their places in limited over formats

by msp83 Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:15 pm

So MS made the call that many of us thought he should sooner rather than later. As a captain, he won everything that's possible for India in all formats. He remained a very fine limited overs captain even when he lost the touch in tests. But now its time to realy hand things over to Virat. MS as a batsman, can still offer something in l limited overs, but I am really happy to see young Pant coming along. Among Samson, Kishan, Jackson and him, young Rishabh really is the one standout for me.

by msp83 Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:17 pm

Good to see Rahane making runs in the practice game. He has to keep performing, he's not a middle order bat in ODIs and the only place he can be accommodated is at the top. Rohit Sharma will be back in a couple of months and there is Rahul around. Only 2 of them can play at the same, at this moment, Rahane is 3rd in my book. Now that Rohit is injured and unavailable, Ajinkya has an opportunity to make a stronger case for himself.

by KP_fan Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:31 pm

msp83 wrote: As a captain, he won everything that's possible for India in all formats.

by KP_fan Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:37 pm

msp...here is list of wins / losses outside Asia for Asian captains...and you can see Dhoni has most losses
and the poorest Win / Loss Ratio...he was a pathetic test match captain overseas.....

and his ODI record as a captain also quite mediocre outside asia

He was a good limited over captain in home-patta-conditions.....one odd CT stands out as an exception

by msp83 Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:18 pm

As you say, its the end results that matter, KPF. He won the T-20 WC, the 50 over WC, the CT. in SA, at home, and in England respectively. Which other captain in the world has done that? Along with the top ranking in tests for nearly 2 years?
Yes, his overseas test record isn't great, in fact it was terrible after 2011. But there are things that you just can't take away from Dhoni. But its been time to goo for some time now. Hope he can find enough reserves to keep performing as a wicketkeeper batsman for some more time....... But I have a feeling he'll be done with the CT. Hopefully young Pant will take over in all formats sooner rather than later.

by Gooseberry Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:31 pm

As part of the traditional build up to a limited overs game someone has to suggest that Morgans place should be under threat after two failures and both Billings and Bairstow making good runs in the warm ups.
Of course it isnt actually under threat in the short term but I feel this forum wouldnt be the same if someone did round on him and accuse him of being out of form regardless of how he had played.
Sack Morgan!

by KP_fan Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:41 am

Gooseberry wrote:As part of the traditional build up to a limited overs game someone has to suggest that Morgans place should be under threat after two failures and both Billings and Bairstow making good runs in the warm ups.
Of course it isnt actually under threat in the short term but I feel this forum wouldnt be the same if someone did round on him and accuse him of being out of form regardless of how he had played.
Sack Morgan!

If Root is appointed captain for tests per the popular belief at the start of 2017 English season......there would be no reason to not give him limited over captaincy also.....top sides like Aus and Lanka already have Smith and Matthews respectively....India has moved to Kohli

One captain makes sense if he is holding his place on merit in all formats..to avoid conflicting directives and vision.

So Root will be the all format captain once he takes test captaincy and then Morgan will have to compete with all the limited over talented youngsters that Eng have....and justify holding on a place as a player.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:42 pm

Morgan literally been our best ODI player (batting and captaincy combined) the past 12 months - his place shouldn't be and isn't under threat

A genuinely intriguing series upcoming - a shame only 3 ODI's and not 5 really, because I'd like to have seen how this England side does over a proper series.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:31 am

Don't see how the third umpire can give that out

I'd forgotten how annoying these Indian commentators are too

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:49 am

I want to have children with that Jason Roy straight drive

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:12 am

Roy looks in fine touch.

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:19 am

Dammit, I really shouldn't post positives...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:58 am

We're gonna end up 273-9 here aren't we

by Gooseberry Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:00 am

Sack Morgan?

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:01 am

Morgan has been past his sell by date for some time. He desperately needs a big score to justify his position.

by guildfordbat Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:27 am

England 199/3 off 34.

Sounds a good score but may be deceptive. Ground appears very small (only been watching the last few minutes).

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:44 am

guildfordbat wrote:England 199/3 off 34.

Sounds a good score but may be deceptive. Ground appears very small (only been watching the last few minutes).

Gonna need 330+ imo - good pitch, small ground, Kohli.

Just losing wickets as we're about to really accelerate.

Morgan needs a score this series - he's suffering from being a mere mortal in a team of ridiculous batsmen

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:54 am

Another wicket at a key time

We're gonna end up 30/40 short here unless Stokes tees off

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:02 am

Whist watching I have been reading the comments on the BBC :

Chris Mitchell: Another innings from Joe Root where he passes 50 and gets himself out. For all his talent, his application and desire are appalling.

Carl Carritt: Joe Root out in the 70s. Shock. Virat Kohli and Steve Smith get 120 in these situations.

Only in England can the best batsman and top scorer get berated for getting out.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:11 am

eirebilly wrote:Whist watching I have been reading the comments on the BBC :

Chris Mitchell: Another innings from Joe Root where he passes 50 and gets himself out. For all his talent, his application and desire are appalling.

Carl Carritt: Joe Root out in the 70s. Shock. Virat Kohli and Steve Smith get 120 in these situations.

Only in England can the best batsman and top scorer get berated for getting out.

People seem to hate him for getting 80 like literally every time. They hated Trott for the same reason....

Rules peeps - how is bumrah being allowed to continue here? 3 over waist height no balls?

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:19 am

Stokes is really on one here, England may get a competitive score yet.

Never understood the hate towards Root Olly, a very talented player. He would be selected in any side in the world.

by guildfordbat Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:20 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Whist watching I have been reading the comments on the BBC :

Chris Mitchell: Another innings from Joe Root where he passes 50 and gets himself out. For all his talent, his application and desire are appalling.

Carl Carritt: Joe Root out in the 70s. Shock. Virat Kohli and Steve Smith get 120 in these situations.

Only in England can the best batsman and top scorer get berated for getting out.

People seem to hate him for getting 80 like literally every time. They hated Trott for the same reason....

Rules peeps - how is bumrah being allowed to continue here? 3 over waist height no balls?

There's no hatred from me towards Root. Admiration for his ability and what he does but tinged with some frustration that he doesn't often go on further. Each to their own but I can't see that as unfair or unreasonable.

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:21 am

Done it again, my bad.

by guildfordbat Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:23 am

eirebilly wrote:Stokes is really on one here, England may get a competitive score yet.

Never understood the hate towards Root Olly, a very talented player. He would be selected in any side in the world.

Billy - you sure were at the front of the queue today when jinxes were being handed out! Very Happy

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:25 am

Not saying another word Guilford censored

by msp83 Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:28 am

So Kohli realizing first hand the kind of frustrations that MS had to live with as captain of this ODI bowling unit on roads. This lineup is just not good enough on flat roads. Only Shami can be a reasonable operator in these conditions and if Bumra gets his Yorkers right. Else, there is nothing to work with for the captain.
Unless Kohli plays an absolute blinder, this one is already gone, England are better at flat pitch bowling and India's batting is not that explosive.......

by guildfordbat Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:32 am

Don't worry about it, Billy. You're not a proper poster without a few goofs and jinxes to your name! Chat away. thumbsup

My own take - probably another goof Wink

- is that we've got more than I expected a dozen overs or so ago but we are still going to need to take 10 wickets to win this.

by msp83 Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:33 am

Regardless of his outstanding test performance in tests and Amit Mishra's corresponding mediocrity at the same level, perhaps it is time to give the latter the headway over Ravichandran Ashwin in the ODI format.......

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:35 am

350 is a very good total here and I do believe England have a chance here. I agree with msp that India may not have the explosive power as England do so unless they get off to a flyer, they may struggle.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:36 am

An excellent effort by Stokes and Moeen to get us upto 350

I mean Kohli is gonna score 155* and they'll chase it with 5.4 overs left, but good nonetheless

by msp83 Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:37 am

So all that India need is a simple 351 at only 7+ an over to win this one! Poor, poor effort from the bowlers. Only Pandya and Jadeja managing to hold their heads above water.
All the more reason why MS should be happy at his call!

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:43 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Rules peeps - how is bumrah being allowed to continue here? 3 over waist height no balls?

Collingwood agrees with you on that one.

by alfie Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:24 pm

Good effort from England , I thought. 350 may still not be enough as India have some terrific bats and the England bowling is less reliable than their batting ; but it surely represents a very good score to defend.

Criticism of Root today is off centre , I think - he set himself to bat through , eventually fell trying to accelerate when he had lost partners...I note that Buttler didn't score any faster - and didn't go on today.
But Stokes - and Moeen - did the job in the late overs and hit the target : could they have done so without the job Root did in setting things up ?

Not going on from 80 or so in Tests is a different issue. But not relevant today.

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:35 pm

Dhawan never looked at the races today. Ali had to juggle that catch though. Good breakthrough for England.

by eirebilly Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:41 pm

Oh dear, Kohli has started...

by alfie Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:42 pm

Willey has a knack of picking up those early wickets.

I am pleased with the way Woakes has started though : not giving them anything. India have some explosive players ; but if they get too far behind the rate they may overreach...

Kohli obviously is the key. He needs to play an innings and knock the stuffing out of England's bowlers. If he were to fall early I'd really fancy England defending this.

by alfie Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:44 pm

Rahul gone...

Willey again.

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