Eng in India

by alfie Thu 08 Dec 2016, 5:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

by CaledonianCraig Fri 09 Dec 2016, 12:53 am

Woakes falls for 11 and England are 320 for 7. They desperately need a decent partnership now in the tail.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 12:53 am

No fifty stand I'm afraid...Woakes nicks one behind. Even 350 seems a way off now...

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 12:57 am

Incidentally , both wickets this morning have fallen to defensive rather than attacking shots.
Just saying Whistle

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 1:11 am

Rashid leaves the wrong one and is bowled...

As his bowling has improved , he's also unfortunately become a walking wicket.

Mind you he probably can't wait to bowl on this . I think it will suit him.

Time for Joss to tee off.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 1:28 am

Ball taking Jadeja to the cleaners 4-2-4

Brings up the 350 clap

Can't be too useless with the bat - he is coming in ahead of the Burnley Lara , after all Smile

And now fifty for Buttler ! Well done after a very nervous start

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 1:47 am

Ball dominating this partnership Smile

New ball at last as England pass 370...

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 2:05 am

385/8 at lunch. Four hundred back on the menu ?

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:08 am

400 all out - Buttler out for 76, managed to hit one off Ashwin seemingly into Pakistan, but out trying to do the same to Jadeja - a really good knock from him.

A very good first innings score by England.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:08 am

400 exactly. Jos gone for an excellent 76 : surely his best Test innings clap

All the wickets to the main spin pair. Think England might need the seamers to take a couple to help out Rashid and Moeen ...but they'll be happy with that score.
India have a deep batting lineup. England will need to bowl well ; but if they can knock them over for a substantial lead they'll be well on the way to pulling one back ; I don't think batting on this is going get any easier.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:10 am

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Hi folks - was away all day but just caught up with the highlights and Sky's The Verdict.

Congratulations to Jennings - he had some luck to begin with but the real art there is to make the most of it and he certainly did. Always hard to get a proper feel of the game from highlights but I sensed he became more confident and accomplished as his innings progressed.

As for Jennings' lucky breaks. Thought it was a bad miss at gully before he'd scored - the ball seemed to loop up a bit and not travel that fast, should have been held. Could also have gone lbw for 10 - got the benefit of umpire's call on where pitching but I would have anyway queried the legitimacy of his shot. Seemed half-hearted with the bat kept back, would like umpires to be expecting more of the batsman in those sort of situations and be more prepared to put their finger up.

As Key said on Verdict, ''tough balance between positivity and recklessness for England's batsmen''. However, I tended to side with Willis - he's more balanced this year with less playing to the camera - who felt we needed to be more circumspect.

Cook being stumped before lunch on day one ... come on, we don't expect or need that! Moeen then showed why he's a good biffer down the order at 7 or 8 but not a number 4. Poor shot from Bairstow as well and inappropriate at the time. All that resulted in Stokes playing a Cook-like role for his 20 odd not out at a strike rate below 30.

288/5 probably isn't bad but I would have preferred 240/3 with Stokes still to appear on day 2 and then have the freedom to play an aggressive role, something he does far more naturally and better than Cook. First innings runs are especially vital in India and so are our wickets, don't give 'em away! Ashwin is a class act - we need to look to give him respect before gifts.

Hi guildford

I tend to the view that the positivity gained more than it lost. Sure , three batsmen over reached and got out...but they also scored runs briskly enough that England managed nearly 300 in the day. And the way this pitch began to assist the spinners late in the day it may well be that the extra fifty runs gained ends up outweighing keeping a couple more wickets in hand - not that there could be any guarantee that the wickets wouldn't have fallen anyway had they resorted to more defensive play.
It is always a risk v reward choice ; and perhaps Bairstow in particular might have been more patient : but I won't condemn the approach. It has arguably already worked better than the more cautious tactics employed in the second match , for example.
Agree they must respect Ashwin. But if they just let him dominate them I fear he will take them apart anyway - just a bit slower perhaps...

On the note re: Ashwin, Hussain was making a good point on comms - much like with Murali, you know he's going to get wickets on these pitches, its all about making sure he isn't getting 6-50 from 35 odd overs, but making sure he goes for some runs too. I think England batted spot on in this innings

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:20 am

alfie wrote:Incidentally , both wickets this morning have fallen to defensive rather than attacking shots.
Just saying

Hi Alfie and all - only been watching today for a short while, just in time to see Ball hurt his shoulder and then get out!! Rolling Eyes

Anyway, that seems to have been a valuable innings from him. Had we been all out for 350 or less, that would have been a huge disappointment after reaching 230/2 yesterday.

As I say, haven't seen the earlier batting today but do feel - as per my earlier post, thanks for your reply, Alfie - the middle order and late middle order would have had more license to get on with it and play more attacking shots (which probably would have been more natural to them) had we had been a bit more circumspect and respectful towards the bowling yesterday. Yes, it's not an easy balance between positivity and recklessness but I particularly maintain Cook getting stumped before lunch on day one is unacceptable. We do tend to be getting towards a positive approach justifying a batsman falling to any sort of bad shot - positivity is very fine but we can't allow good shot execution to go out the window; there still needs to be good sense applied.

Anyway, 400 all out. The pundits think that's a decent score here - perhaps it is. However, I would have liked more and feel we were at times in a strong position to do so but didn't fully utilise the opportunities.

Now time for Rashid to show he can get some top order wickets first dig.

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:33 am

[quote="Good Golly I'm Olly"][quote="alfie"]

guildfordbat wrote:
...

...

On the note re: Ashwin, Hussain was making a good point on comms - much like with Murali, you know he's going to get wickets on these pitches, its all about making sure he isn't getting 6-50 from 35 odd overs, but making sure he goes for some runs too. I think England batted spot on in this innings

Hi Olly - I was sure that would be your view and can understand it. I know you don't like him but if you get a chance, I would recommend a listen to Willis on yesterday's The Verdict. He's toned down quite a bit and didn't totally slag off England's batters (nor am I trying to) but pointed out how we could have been more circumspect and perhaps successful. For me, that was spot on.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:49 am

Cook not wasting much time getting the spinners on ; Moeen for the eighth over.
Fair enough ; not much help for the seamers. They will mainly be used to keep control at one end from now on - unless they get some reverse at some stage.
Indeed it's a double change with Rashid on at the other end. Will be a different task for him today as he's expected to take early wickets ...

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 3:53 am

Haven't watched D1..so dunno how threatening the pitch is...there is turn but's s slow and there is better bounce than the previous pitches...which makes it easier to stand up on the back foot and hit through the line.

--so far the balls have NOT jumped up or squatted.....on D2 from the bits I have seen.

--Eng have put runs on the board 400 is not bad....India this morning could have restricted them to lesser...but again from the way they stood at 230-2 they could have gone much further too.

--India missed shami and the one or two wickets he plucks out is the difference between restricting Eng for 350-vs the 400 they have.... and missed a trick in bringing Shardul whose style would have suited India better.

--Bhuvi offers solid batting even though he was not the right bowler for this pitch.....you can count on him for a 30odd with a straight bat , well built inning.

--Rahul when he gets into double figures....gets a big one.
How the game is placed..and how good or bad pitch is we will be able to read better at the end fo the day today

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:13 am

Just as I was thinking the Indian openers were looking fairly comfortable , Moeen does Rahul with a ripper !

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:22 am

Becoming more and more obvious England have mucked up by not picking three spinners here.

Jake ball might have batted for more balls than he'll bowl...

by Gooseberry Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:26 am

Missed a trick in the sense that we haven't been able to sit here whining about how god awful Dawson is?

by VTR Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:29 am

Re the Stokes dismissal - was he dispatched by that Indian umpire who is filling in? I have images of a guy surrounded by pictures of Sachin Tendulkar making the decision!

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:33 am

Ball getting his turn with...the ball , now.

Not much in this pitch for him but makes sense to change the bowling around . Can't just bowl the two spinners all the time.

Interesting to see Vijay taking Rashid on so aggressively. Pressure back on the young man ; but if he gets out with a skied catch he won't be happy. India will be pleased to get to tea for one down.

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:37 am

Rahul squanders a start to a loose shot.....his strength was his tight , compact defense and focus on building a long inning....and in a desire to impress in T20s and ODis....
He's gotta focus better , harder...he is a gem of a test match player and we need him back at his full focus level.

Inspite of Artherton and Nasser oooh-aahing on how this is the most spinning pitch in the series so far and hence Eng score is a a very good one.....i think it's not difficult because of the even-ness of the bounce.

Ind need to get to the end of the day without losing another wicket......140-1 would be perfect and 160-2 also OK

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:50 am

India bat down all the way with Umesh at No. 11 capable of scoring 15 odd...and they have to keep going at England...at 3 to 4RPO....useful 30s , 40s and 50s all the way down the order....and bat throuhg at leats end of tomm....
they will get a lead of atleast 50+......and even then they are just at par or juts behind Eng...

this wicket will crack and D4 and D5 will be tough......and Eng will struggle to make even 200 in the 3rd inning......and Ind struggle to chase 150 in the 4th inning.

This will go all the way down to the wire....even IF INDIA BAT WELL IN THE FIRST INNING.

*And if India collapse if first .....then Eng is in driver's seat.

*If Ind BAT BIG....like a lead of 120+ then India in drivers seat.

I personally do not think we will hot either of those asteriked * scenarios

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 5:15 am

what a review......wasted...sometime teams waste reviews in hope, sometimes tactically....this one was wasted desperately....

On another note......Eng are NOT going to get a lead on the back of spinners Rashid and / or Moeen's wicktes....
One of their seamers has to deliver a 3 wicket spell and a 4-for for the inning....and about 6 to 7 wickets for the innings to the seamers...

if the spinners pick 7 odd wickets....then India would have scored enough runs in the process

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 5:29 am

Jake Ball looks good....not express but fast medium in the 135-140kph channel....shades of Harmison and Morkel in his style and high arm action.....seemingly more effective than Finn ....wonder how much he isn likely to be used here on this pitch....

On a seaming pitch though this guy will be handful......will get it awkwardly high and with movement from the length or just back of it

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 6:47 am

KP_fan wrote:
Inspite of Artherton and Nasser oooh-aahing on how this is the most spinning pitch in the series so far and hence Eng score is a a very good one.....i think it's not difficult because of the even-ness of the bounce.

Ind need to get to the end of the day without losing another wicket......140-1 would be perfect and 160-2 also OK

following up from my post above:

--Ind already 140-1......4 more overs to go and Ind need to get through now without losing another wicket...and should they lose a wicket Bhuvi should come as a night watchman

--and Inspite of all the ooohs and aahs this is the most spinning wicket in the series by Nass and Artherton...already visible that Eng spinners are getting less out of the pitch on D2 then Indians got in the 3rd session of D1.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 6:50 am

Been out since tea ...looks like these two batsmen have taken command , eh ?
Rashid going for plenty I see : usual two pies per over is it ? He has improved ; but I still don't see him as a regular prospect outside Asia - and even here I fear he isn't going to be a match winner.

Unless the seamers can take a hand here I doubt they're going to get India out for the sort of score they were hoping. Still there is a long way to go...

by Gooseberry Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:01 am

Should there be three spinners? Well if the front two cant do it would a third be any better, bearing in mind the turd they have to call on?
Certainly the spinners haven't been able to stem the flow of runs and offer control through the series.
The Surrey mafia have been pretty woeful through the winter with the ball, and Dawson isn't really going to be any better is he.

Sure it would be nice to have the luxury of a third option and the additional challenge of a left armer but its not much use chucking pies down and hoping. They may as well just bowl Root more for little loss in quality. 4 seamers may be 1 too many, but at least they have kept the run rate under control. Had there been 3 spinner sand they bowled more overs between them the score could actually be even worse.

The argument could be made that Cook actually should've back his fast bowlers longer with the new ball and bought Ball on before turning to Ali and Rashid in combination.

Either way theres a lot more going wrong for England here than their 6th bowler choice, it takes someone to step up and deliver and for the Indian batsmen to stop being so good on these pitches. A stroke of luck would help too.

All in very depressingly familiar for this series. England did really well to drag their score up to 400 and that should have been a very competitive total. As it stands India are in as strong a position as they could hope for, and worryingly comfortable against Rashid and Ali. Maybe teaching England a lesson about balancing the need to score and not let the attacking spinner settle and reckless shot playing too.

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:05 am

alfie wrote:Been out since tea ...looks like these two batsmen have taken command , eh ?
Rashid going for plenty I see : usual two pies per over is it ? He has improved ; but I still don't see him as a regular prospect outside Asia - and even here I fear he isn't going to be a match winner.

Unless the seamers can take a hand here I doubt they're going to get India out for the sort of score they were hoping. Still there is a long way to go...

Alfie - yes and yes. Ok, maybe only 3 pies every 2 overs from Rashid but still a long way short of being good enough. After a decent start, Moeen bowled too much short stuff.

In line with my earlier tone, I've been disappointed with England over the two days.

This caught my eye from an India supporter on cricinfo: ''The mental strength of this [Indian] team is admirable. Ready to bear everything, wear out the opposition. Grit, guts, glory as they say. And it all comes from the captain who's not just lead but it seems inspires every player out there.''

No complaints about England's guts but not enough grit and grind for me. Whilst I wouldn't say Cook has been uninspiring, his dismissal yesterday set a poor example and too much of that sort of careless play has been continued.

India will be the happier team tonight and deservedly so.

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:10 am

KP_fan wrote:

On another note......Eng are NOT going to get a lead on the back of spinners Rashid and / or Moeen's wicktes....
One of their seamers has to deliver a 3 wicket spell and a 4-for for the inning....and about 6 to 7 wickets for the innings to the seamers...

if the spinners pick 7 odd wickets....then India would have scored enough runs in the process

and following up from the above post here are my end of day thoughts....

31 out of 52 overs has been bolwed by spinners i.e 60% of the bowling Shocked

......inspite of have 4 specialist seamers

Cook wants to and hopes his spinners will bowl out India and get him the lead...

and repetitive as it might sound...as I said in the post above......Eng's spinners won't get them the lead...
On D2 they are getting less out of the pitch..then Indian spinners did on D1.

A seamer or two have to bowl a spell or two of reverse and bundle India in 3 sessions tomm...and even then Ind would have had a lead of 50 odd

but for that to happen Eng's seamers have to bowl more....a lot more...and Cook's gotta believe in his seamers.

On these good Indian pitches the battle is of first inning supremacy .....and Eng looking likely to lose it yet again.....for in Cook's mind he hasn't figured how to dislodge India in first inning cheaply in this series

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:11 am

So India complete a great session ...still just one down and 146 on the board.
Any scares ? Seem to have been going pretty easily. Apparently Moeen and Rashid haven't been able to exert the pressure of their Indian counterparts...which I guess wasn't too surprising.
Tomorrow may be different I suppose. But on the innings so far you'd think England will have trouble getting them out for under their score.
Bit disappointing after a good batting effort but they're still well in the game so could be a lot worse. (I do really rate Pujara. And once Vijay survived the early pace attack he was a fair chance to go on. But they have to start again in the morning)

by VTR Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:18 am

Our spinners simply aren't good enough - Ali is a part-timer/handy option and useful for home Tests. Rashid has improved but never seems to take any first innings wickets. Am not sure he handles the expectation of this sort of situation too well - a bit harsh maybe?

Throwing Batty or Dawson in wouldn't help really, neither are better than the two named above. Pace bowling is our strength so India is always going to be a very tough assignment, though at least we have generally fought hard with the bat in the series, so have no been a complete pushover like a lot of touring sides

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:19 am

Gooseberry wrote:Should there be three spinners? Well if the front two cant do it would a third be any better, bearing in mind the turd they have to call on?
Certainly the spinners haven't been able to stem the flow of runs and offer control through the series.
The Surrey mafia have been pretty woeful through the winter with the ball, and Dawson isn't really going to be any better is he.

Sure it would be nice to have the luxury of a third option and the additional challenge of a left armer but its not much use chucking pies down and hoping. They may as well just bowl Root more for little loss in quality. 4 seamers may be 1 too many, but at least they have kept the run rate under control. Had there been 3 spinner sand they bowled more overs between them the score could actually be even worse.

The argument could be made that Cook actually should've back his fast bowlers longer with the new ball and bought Ball on before turning to Ali and Rashid in combination.

Either way theres a lot more going wrong for England here than their 6th bowler choice, it takes someone to step up and deliver and for the Indian batsmen to stop being so good on these pitches. A stroke of luck would help too.

All in very depressingly familiar for this series. England did really well to drag their score up to 400 and that should have been a very competitive total. As it stands India are in as strong a position as they could hope for, and worryingly comfortable against Rashid and Ali. Maybe teaching England a lesson about balancing the need to score and not let the attacking spinner settle and reckless shot playing too.

With a lot of hindsight, England would / might have been better off with Batty playing in this Test rather than the last one. However, he was poor then and made no meaningful case for having another game. Regardless of Ansari also being poor when he last bowled, he's crocked now anyway and so out of contention. I would have been inclined to select Dawson to supplement the batting and as an extra slow bowling option to give Rashid and Moeen a break from time to time. However, that presupposes our two leading spinners won't bowl like tins of custard, as Goose would say and as they have done. It probably would also have denied us Ball's 30 odd runs and vital partnership with Buttler which is probably the main thing keeping us in the game now!

For once, very much in agreement with Goose's final line. Shocked

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:22 am

VTR wrote:Our spinners simply aren't good enough - Ali is a part-timer/handy option and useful for home Tests. Rashid has improved but never seems to take any first innings wickets. Am not sure he handles the expectation of this sort of situation too well - a bit harsh maybe?

Throwing Batty or Dawson in wouldn't help really, neither are better than the two named above. Pace bowling is our strength so India is always going to be a very tough assignment, though at least we have generally fought hard with the bat in the series, so have no been a complete pushover like a lot of touring sides

No.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:27 am

As I say I missed most of that session. But I'm inclined to agree with suggestions above that England should place more faith in the pace men rather than expecting two ( limited ) spinners to do it all. At least it would probably slow the scoring - ie give the batsmen more time to make a mistake.

Now it may be that England saw the way Ashwin and Jadeja bowled and assumed more of the same : overnight they might devise better plans.
India have certainly come back in the match but I wouldn't say they are exactly in control yet : still 250 behind and a couple of quick wickets would change the situation dramatically. They still look at batting last.

And guildford ? The Cook dismissal was certainly out of character . As was his approach - he had England's best strike rate by a distance ! You can criticize him i guess ; but I think there is room to consider the merits and otherwise of the game plan . Overall I think 400 was reasonable ...and my gut feeling is the bowling hasn't been good enough to back it up so far.
Perhaps they'd have made 450 with more care . Perhaps. But they might also have been dismissed for 320 in similar time , letting the Indian spinners dominate.

Still think this will end up a good Test Match

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:34 am

Think we're all laying into England a bit early here guys, Vijay/Pujara have played well so far - but as Alfie rightly points out they're still 250 odd behind, a long way to go yet.

And we know our spinners aren't good enough - but we're making do with the best we have and like VTR says have generally put up a good fight.

(Should also be noted Jack leach returned figures of 0-60 against Afghanistan for the lions in Dubai in their first innings)

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:42 am

Alfie - my last word on the subject .. until I post about it again. Wink

I'm convinced it would have been easier (note: not easy but easier) to score an additional 50 runs first innings than it will be second dig. Given this looks like being a good and presumably fairly tight match, additional runs of that sort of order could be vital. I feel we were careless with the bat too frequently and gave too many wickets away. Without Ball's career best score (which doesn't seem to have attracted much attention), we would almost certainly have been all out for an under par score and really in a pickle now.

Certainly not dreadful from England but could imo have been a lot better with a more suitable balanced approach. That's why I'm disappointed.

by alfie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:53 am

guildfordbat wrote:Alfie - my last word on the subject .. until I post about it again.

I'm convinced it would have been easier (note: not easy but easier) to score an additional 50 runs first innings than it will be second dig. Given this looks like being a good and presumably fairly tight match, additional runs of that sort of order could be vital. I feel we were careless with the bat too frequently and gave too many wickets away. Without Ball's career best score (which doesn't seem to have attracted much attention), we would almost certainly have been all out for an under par score and really in a pickle now.

Certainly not dreadful from England but could imo have been a lot better with a more suitable balanced approach. That's why I'm disappointed.

Yeah I get your theory , guildford...and you may be correct. The main reason I can't agree with you on this is that I don't believe this particular England lineup is capable of playing that considered , well paced innings successfully - at least in Indian conditions. OK , Cook might - and maybe Root ; but the majority of these players will either get out through being too timid or potter around to no purpose until they lose patience and throw their hands in anyway ...I really think their best chance of making a good score is to play fairly aggressively - as they did here. If they could take back a couple of poorly chosen shots great - but I don't expect perfection either.
I think under Bayliss they are going to play this way anyway whatever you or I might think Smile

If the bowlers can get their mojo back tomorrow it may all work out .... Fingers Crossed

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 7:54 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Think we're all laying into England a bit early here guys, Vijay/Pujara have played well so far - but as Alfie rightly points out they're still 250 odd behind, a long way to go yet.

they are behind by 250..that's true.....India has 9 wicktes in hand and they bat deeper than ever before with Bhuvi being a technically correct bowling allrounder at 10 and Parthiv a specialist batsman at No.7

a best realistic scenario....Eng can bowl them out in a day tomm...that's 3 wickets per session....and still India would be 50 runs ahead. off course Eng can bundle out India in 2 sessions....anything is possible in cricket as the cliche goes ( and this would mean 4 wickets in the first sessions tomm and 5 wickets in the 2nd session tomm that's almost a wicket ever 5th or 6th over)
....but give India's form and fighting spirit and depth and track record in the series so far that's less likely to happen

And that realistic best case scenario if seamers contribute well with the ball.....else Eng could be looking at conceding at 100 run lead..and then 4th inning is taken out of the equation just like T3

by Gooseberry Fri 09 Dec 2016, 8:11 am

You say that Alfie but Jennings played a fairly well paced and assured innings, and "chief culprit" Buttler played proper test cricket for his 50 something.

The issue isn't that they looked to be positive, just that there were a few rash or low percentage shots played that didn't need to be. The same sort of thing that Root got branded and idiot for recently.....

England could've scored more...but really 400 was a good total and has given them a lot to bowl at. They could've scored a heck of a lot less too.

Really this innings that's the problem, not their batting.

by dyrewolfe Fri 09 Dec 2016, 9:02 am

What England really needed for this tour was for Swann to have spent time coaching a couple of new genuine attacking spinners.

At the moment we're having to make do with spinners who can sometimes contain and take the odd wicket and who are being exposed pretty brutally by batsmen used to playing spinners on flat pitches. The nature of the pitches means our seamers (our go-to primary attack) is severely neutered.

With better bowling options for these conditions I think our batting lineup would be good enough. Would have hoped for better from Root, Stokes and Bairstow, but 400 is a decent 1st inning score on most pitches.

This performance does however highlight the comment I have made time and time again, that England far too often rely on 2-3 good individual performances, rather than a solid collective team effort.

Think England also shot themselves in the foot by going for 4 pace bowlers (or 3 and an all-rounder) and only 2 spinners. I know (good) spinners tend to be rare, but surely there are more than just Rashid and Moeen - and part timer Root?

by Gooseberry Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:11 am

Dyre... the reserve spinners have combined test figures of 20/1189 between them, and the replacement is an bits and pieces county pro whos considered a worse bowler than both.
Joe Root actually has a better test bowling record than Ansari or Batty (more wickets for less runs at a better economy rate ...hes even got a better strike rate than Batty )

They simply don't have anyone worthy of a third spinners place, regardless of the pitch. As it is Cook is struggling to justify bowling the two he has in the side. The third would just be making them look not as bad, and frankly Roots bowling is pretty much on the same level. As it is they've chosen to go with the pace of Woakes and Ball as an attacking option searching for wickets.

In terms of who they should've bought ...well there was/is a youngster to be mentored in Ansari. The only elephant not in the room is Jack Leach. He's busy with the Lions batting 11 and not taking any Afghanistan wickets in a mock test. Not exactly putting in the kind of display that makes you think " if only" anyway.

I'm sure England would've loved to have taken Warne, Murali and Chuck Norris but sadly non were qualified. As it is they have to pick from the turds available, and even the sewage farm seems to have shut down production.

They've tried 3 spinners, it didn't work. Theyve won a series on these pitches with two before, they just did a better job.

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:15 am

Gooseberry wrote:
...

The Surrey mafia have been pretty woeful through the winter with the ball ...

...

Meanwhile, a better day for the Surrey mafia in Abu Dhabi in the match (awarded first class status) between the Lions and Afghanistan.

Afghanistan reduced to 18/3 at the close as they chase 217 for victory with a day left to play. All 3 wickets taken by the Curran brothers. Earlier, Foakes top scored in the Lions' second innings with 87 not out, following his 70 first dig. Smile

by Gooseberry Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:29 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
...

The Surrey mafia have been pretty woeful through the winter with the ball ...

...

Meanwhile, a better day for the Surrey mafia in Abu Dhabi in the match (awarded first class status) between the Lions and Afghanistan.

Afghanistan reduced to 18/3 at the close as they chase 217 for victory with a day left to play. All 3 wickets taken by the Curran brothers. Earlier, Foakes top scored in the Lions' second innings with 87 not out, following his 70 first dig.

Which just goes to show we should've picked more seamers Wink

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:48 am

Currently watching The Verdict. Butcher (my least favourite ex-Surrey pundit although still miles better than the retarded Cork and that buffoon Botham whom Sky still insist on using to squander my subscription) keeps rattling on that our current position is ''not disastrous''. Agreed but that misses the main point for me that we have blown chances with bat and ball to make our position much stronger.

Colvile now drawing attention to ''X-rated deliveries from Rashid''. Bang on. He was poor today. No easy pickings when it mattered.

by VTR Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:55 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
...

The Surrey mafia have been pretty woeful through the winter with the ball ...

...

Meanwhile, a better day for the Surrey mafia in Abu Dhabi in the match (awarded first class status) between the Lions and Afghanistan.

Afghanistan reduced to 18/3 at the close as they chase 217 for victory with a day left to play. All 3 wickets taken by the Curran brothers. Earlier, Foakes top scored in the Lions' second innings with 87 not out, following his 70 first dig.

Also the Lions are getting some good practice on turning to jelly the moment a legspinner comes on as the 18 year old UAE leggie bagged an 8-for in the second innings, taking his match total to 12 wickets!

Joking aside, Foakes has really stood up with those scores which has probably nudged his nearer to the Test team, which could end up having 3 keepers in it at this rate

by CaledonianCraig Fri 09 Dec 2016, 12:13 pm

England enjoyed the first half of the day but India certainly had the better of the second half of the day. At the moment it is pretty even but England will want wickets tomorrow and pretty frequently.

The road map they would want to follow is to reduce India to 240 for 4 at lunch. By tea make inroads into the lower order and have India around 325 for 8 and bowl India out for around 350 in the final session and bat to close on around 25 for 0.

India will be looking to build on their solid start and reach lunch on around 260 for 2 and tea on around 370 for 5 allowing them to build a first innings lead in the final session to close around 460 for 8.

Of course it all depends on the state of the pitch and if the England spinners can apply more pressure and extract more spin than they have until now.

by guildfordbat Fri 09 Dec 2016, 12:48 pm

Hi Craig - yeah, I was thinking of India looking for around 460 by the end of tomorrow. Can't see them being upset even if they were all out then for that score. That would effectively give us a one innings game over the remaining two days with England staring on minus 60! That together with their spinners being miles better than our lot should more than adequately compensate India having to bat last.

Btw, I think you need to start giving some of our players a personal road map! Not entirely serious there but Cook's own aim at the start of day one should have been to still be at the crease at stumps somewhere around 120 not out rather than seeming to try to get to 60 odd by lunch. Rest assured, I don't entirely blame you for his rush of blood! Wink

by king_carlos Fri 09 Dec 2016, 1:39 pm

Foakes has been getting column inches since his days at Essex learning from James Foster.

He's a template poster boy for what the ECB like in many ways - came through the age group England sides, was involved with a county from a young age, playing for the Lions at 19, popular with coaches because he works hard and doesn't rub people the wrong way.

Unlike a lot of guys who get raved about whilst a teenager he's actually succeeding at county level though.

The main reason I like Foakes is that he's a genuine wicket keeper. His glove work is excellent and will keep getting better.

Bairstow is rightly the man in control whilst he's batting fantastically and improved behind the stumps. If he wants to bat in the top 5, or the coaches want him there, then he should realistically get the gloves taken off him though. It's unfair to expect the runs to keep flowing and keeping to keep improving whilst under increased pressure.

by king_carlos Fri 09 Dec 2016, 1:47 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Dyre... the reserve spinners have combined test figures of 20/1189 between them, and the replacement is an bits and pieces county pro whos considered a worse bowler than both.
Joe Root actually has a better test bowling record than Ansari or Batty (more wickets for less runs at a better economy rate ...hes even got a better strike rate than Batty )

They simply don't have anyone worthy of a third spinners place, regardless of the pitch. As it is Cook is struggling to justify bowling the two he has in the side. The third would just be making them look not as bad, and frankly Roots bowling is pretty much on the same level. As it is they've chosen to go with the pace of Woakes and Ball as an attacking option searching for wickets.

In terms of who they should've bought ...well there was/is a youngster to be mentored in Ansari. The only elephant not in the room is Jack Leach. He's busy with the Lions batting 11 and not taking any Afghanistan wickets in a mock test. Not exactly putting in the kind of display that makes you think " if only" anyway.

I'm sure England would've loved to have taken Warne, Murali and Chuck Norris but sadly non were qualified. As it is they have to pick from the turds available, and even the sewage farm seems to have shut down production.

They've tried 3 spinners, it didn't work. Theyve won a series on these pitches with two before, they just did a better job.

Agree with this Gooseberry. The make up of the attack isn't the issue, it's the quality of the spinners. That is an observation of hindsight though given that many fans and pundits were calling for 3 spinners and 3 seamers for the earlier games.

Dilly and Moeen are much improved bowlers who can be very dangerous on their day (usually day 4/5 for Rashid!) but neither are in the class of their counterparts. Despite not being the class of Ashwin they have bowled well enough in patches for England to have been in a position to compete better in the 2nd and 3rd tests had the batting backed up the bowling.

Spin is where England have inevitably come second best this series. However, the spin bowling on show from England has been more impressive than their batting against it for the most part.

by msp83 Fri 09 Dec 2016, 2:30 pm

Followed the action through most of the first couple of sessions. India got Stokes early, then took out Woakes and Rashid without much additional damage, and would have expected to have England bowled out for around 360 from that point onwards. But Buttler played a very mature hand with solid and significant support from Ball, and they managed to stretch the total to 400 that is not a bad score at all. An interesting total as Nasser called it. England would have hoped for a few more from a position of 230 for 2, would have been glad that they went that far from a position of 249-5 and 335-8. India would have been pleased they took out the last 8 for just 170 from a position of 230-2, would have been very disappointed they let the last 4 wickets add more than a hundred, the last 2 wickets to add more than 60.
Then, the Indian openers put together a better start, Rahul was looking good when he played 1 shot too many, that too against the spin and was bowled. As KPF says, the lad needs to focus a bit more. We know he can play the big shots. But there is enough time in the game for him to do all that, and he shouldn't think he's the next Virender Sehwag.......
Vijay is back among runs, and this innings he looked better than he did during that hundred in the first game. But the job has to be restarted all over again tomorrow. Pujara has provided another significant contribution, but again like Vijay, his job isn't done, and will have to restart and refocus tomorrow. Their partnership however, has given India parity at the end of the day. It was Ashwin yesterday, it was Vijay and Pujara on day 2. And so far, no side can claim to have a decisive advantage in the game.......

by KP_fan Fri 09 Dec 2016, 4:41 pm

In T3 Eng ran neck to neck with India but around mid of 3rd day India broke their resistance and gained ascendancy

same this game....Ind is running neck to neck not letting Eng surge ahead inspite of a good show by Eng.

tomm morning session is crucial.....if India lose 1 or 2 wickets max.....they would gain upper hand
3 wickets Par
more than 3 wickets....and Eng surge ahead

It sounds so cliched but a very important session coming up tomm morning

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