Eng in India

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway

I'd argue that Vettori was deserving of a better average for his skills. He wasn't the biggest turner of the ball but had wonderful control - as his economy rate showed.

He's a guy who bowled in unhelpful conditions for the bulk of his career. He also bowled in some very poor attacks in which he was expected to hold down an end no matter what the conditions or how much the ball was going around the park from the other end. Playing in a side that was often getting dominated makes his economy all the more impressive.

Having Stephen Fleming as his captain undoubtedly rubbed off on how cleverly he assessed the game as well.

I'd agree that Swann and MacGill are a step above him though. I'd rate MacGill as better than Swann too. His strike rate is fantastic and shows just how dangerous a bowler he was. He was a genuinely classic leg spinner with a huge leg break and wonderfully disguised googly that could turn square from nowhere.

Lyon might lack ability but his record in India is vastly superior to that of any of the spinners England played in this series.

Theres a difference between not producing exceltional spinners and not producing half decent ones.
A few years ago when Aus were trying out the likes of Beer and Agar we all found it hilarious. Then Lyon gave them some level of respect.

England would love a spinner who could average in the low 30s over a sustained period despite rarely playing on condusive pitches. His figures are considerably better than Moeens in all formats, I dont buy that thats down to magic rather than a difference in ability.

Englands 4some are pretty rank on all counts .
I cba to fact check but id be surprised if any other major test nation had an experienced senior spinner with a test average of 42, ODI 44 and T20 of 29. Rashids figures are just as bad. South Africa at least have a chap capable of bowling in T20.

Well said, Gooseberry.

Lyon is a far better spinner than anything that England currently have to offer.

The one thing that sets Rashid apart from Moeen (and now Dawson, Ansari) is that he has the ability to run through a side in a 4th innings. Whilst he also lacks the control that a test spinner should have he does at least offer the turn and variation to take wickets in conducive conditions.

It should be noted that whilst the English spinners did bowl poorly the Indian batting was outstanding. Their ability to play spin was something that those English bowlers hadn't had any experience of bowling too before and it really showed.

The English spinners were doing what inexperienced bowlers often do when under the cosh. Instead of trying to keep economy low, keep certain batsman on strike and build some rhythm as they should have. They too often looked for a miracle ball to break the partnerships which led to loose deliveries which were put away.

Lyon averages 42 with an economy of 3.7 in Asia. He is not a good spinner in the sub continent. He would improve the England side in England, when he could do a role similar to what he does in the Australia side at the moment i.e. hold an end up and chip in with wickets due to the pressure built, and he would be better than Ali, Rashid, whomever at that.

But in Asia, he is not much cop. Far better is definitely pushing it.

Lyon has more than twice as many wickets as Moeen at a much better average and significantly better economy rate. I don't think far better is pushing it at all.

One area that Moeen holds up better than his ability would suggest is strike rate. He takes wickets more regularly than you'd expect for a guy who struggles to control an end. Dilly has that ability as well.

Lyons strike rate is better, and Moeens figures are declining with experience which is perhapsnthe most damning fact. Hes been woeful for the best part of two years, yet keeps a place through centuries with the bat and the paucity of competition

Cook has called for a specialist spin coach. Richard the 3rd has renewed his request for a horse, unfortuntely that bolted some time ago.

king_carlos wrote:Lyon has more than twice as many wickets as Moeen at a much better average and significantly better economy rate. I don't think far better is pushing it at all.

One area that Moeen holds up better than his ability would suggest is strike rate. He takes wickets more regularly than you'd expect for a guy who struggles to control an end. Dilly has that ability as well.

Outside of Asia, Lyon is clearly better - yes. But if we want to be winning series in India in particular, we can't be looking for a Nathan Lyon type spinner. We need someone considerably better, as he has a very poor record in the sub continent. Because his main strength over his English counterparts is his consistency, but just being consistent in line and length bowling spin in India isn't going to win Test matches.

Why stop at 20 years ? My cricket memories (counting very young and hazy) include just three outstanding spinners for England - Laker , Underwood and Swann...
Sure there have been a few others who were serviceable or better (Allen , Titmus , Emburey apart from the more recent ones mentioned by others ) but the big three are the only ones you'd build an attack around.
And it's similar in other countries : Australia had Benaud : and waited a long time for Warne. (Was worth the wait !) Lyon , despite his deficiencies in Asia - and a suspicion he might be in decline ? is probably as good as any other they've had (MacGill suffered from being contemporary with Warne and never really had the chance to show how good he might have been ; though I'm not sure I'd rate him as highly as King Carlos in any case) Again plenty of decent performers : O'Keefe , May , Jenner etc but the great ones don't grow on trees.
West Indies once had spinners : Ramadhin was brilliant ; Valentine shone rightly but briefly and along came Gibbs...but it's been a long wait since...
Have SA really had a notable spin bowler since Tayfield ?

It's climate related ; it's cultural ...but all these countries base their attacks around fast bowling and spinners are the poor relation. When you get a genius - rejoice ! Won't be another one along any time soon.

None of this is to say England shouldn't aspire to better than they have right now. Moeen sadly has gone backwards lately ; Rashid for all his promise still doesn't look like a reliable sole spinner: perhaps Leach will be one ? Hope he can sort out his action issues , as I've no doubt he will then get a chance soon enough...but I'm not putting the house on his automatically transferring county form to the big league.

Frankly still expect Moeen to start the SA Tests as the spinner. From there we'll see.

alfie wrote:Why stop at 20 years ?  My cricket memories (counting very young and hazy) include just three outstanding spinners for England - Laker , Underwood and Swann...

Monty was a very good spinner.....more talented than Swann....the most talented English spinner I have seen .....that said I started "seeing " cricket just after Underwood era.

One name worth mentioning is Phil Edmonds...a very good SLA

alfie wrote:Why stop at 20 years ?  My cricket memories (counting very young and hazy) include just three outstanding spinners for England - Laker , Underwood and Swann...
Sure there have been a few others who were serviceable or better (Allen , Titmus , Emburey  apart from the more recent ones mentioned by others ) but the big three are the only ones you'd build an attack around.
And it's similar in other countries : Australia had Benaud : and waited a long time for Warne. (Was worth the wait !) Lyon , despite his deficiencies in Asia - and a suspicion he might be in decline ? is probably as good as any other they've had (MacGill suffered from being contemporary with Warne and never really had the chance to show how good he might have been ; though I'm not sure I'd rate him as highly as King Carlos in any case) Again plenty of decent performers  : O'Keefe , May , Jenner etc but the great ones don't grow on trees.
West Indies once had spinners : Ramadhin was brilliant ; Valentine shone rightly but briefly and along came Gibbs...but it's been a long wait since...
Have SA really had a notable spin bowler since Tayfield ?

It's climate related ; it's cultural ...but all these countries base their attacks around fast bowling and spinners are the poor relation. When you get a genius - rejoice ! Won't be another one along any time soon.

None of this is to say England shouldn't aspire to better than they have right now.  Moeen sadly has gone backwards lately ; Rashid for all his promise still doesn't look like a reliable sole spinner: perhaps Leach will be one ? Hope he can sort out his action issues , as I've no doubt he will then get a chance soon enough...but I'm not putting the house on his automatically transferring county form to the big league.

Frankly still expect Moeen to start the SA Tests as the spinner. From there we'll see.

The bloke still took over 200 test wickets. He also has the second highest strike rate of any modern (post World War II) spinne - until recently he had the best strike rate before being over taken by Ashwin. You don't get those figures for nothing.

He wasn't in the league of Warne or Murali who are well ahead of the chasing pack. I'd put him on par with many of the top spinners from recent years such as Swann, Shah, Ashwin and Herath.

Agreed that it will never be known how good he could have been over something like a 100 test career due to him being Warne's contemporary. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Moeen started the summer at number 5 and playing as a batsman.

Carlos ....I went back and reviewed MacGill's record. And it is indeed better than I had thought. Think I must have been too bewitched by Warne and subconsciously saw anyone else as a pale imitation ! Though probably also the fact that I happened to watch him live on some bad days...
Will give you that one .

But KP_f. ... Monty better than Swann ? Not having that in a million years...he was a decent bowler , nothing more. His record is OK ; but as he tended to be picked mainly when they were playing on spinning tracks , it really isn't anything special.
Ironic that his best performance (India 2012) turned out to be nearly a sign off...he did nothing in NZ a few months later and the less said about Ashes 2013:14 the better...
Swann was in another class altogether.

The new Graham Hick

Moeen continuing is fairly likely off the back of his 4 centuries over this year, but thats more an indictment of both the middle order batting resources and spin resources than it is praise of his continued poor overall record. Even with the 100s hes not made enough runs over a sustained period to justify a place as specliast batsman.
But then neither has Stokes. Or Buttler.

The decision on what happens with the gloves could have a big impact on Moeens future. As could Leach. Or even Dawson if they decide some control from the spinner is a priority.


In other news after a wave of pundits critising Cook the groundswell seems to be toward him staying on.

Leach is a bit upset that noone told him he had a dodgy action. This all sounds like a classic ecb pr disaster now.

Everyones very happy they accidentaly unearthed two decent top order batsman. They just quietly forget the list of names they went through before being forced into picking the guys theyd initially left out. If Dawson Jennings and Hameed start the summer tests this to me says the initial squad and match sides this winter were poorly selected...and someone needs to be held to account for that. Buttler at 7 still seems absurd to me, and is a sign of just how badly plans A and B went wrong.

Buttler playing as a specialist batsman at 7 is a waste of a place, agreed there Gooseberry. Regardless of my views over his ability as a batsman in the longer form it's not fair on the bloke to send him in at 7 and expect him to do the job of a specialist batsman. Just the same as it wouldn't be fair on Bairstow to keep giving him the pressure of batting in the top 5 and keeping.

Criticising the batting selections is easier with hindsight. The options were thin on the ground and they went with Ballance in the middle order, who had one of the better test records in the squad going into the tour. Duckett is an easy selection to criticise now after seeing his agressive, open stanced style torn apart by the Indian spinners. Prior to the tour he was a popular option from a bare cupboard though.

The really poor selection was not having another batsman on tour instead of Finn who the coaches clearly had no intention of selecting in an XI.

Jennings I'm still not convinced by but he's done enough to warrant a run. I feel that his technical deficiencies could see him fade as Sam Robson and Adam Lyth did. Hameed on the other hand looks to have the perfect technique and temperament for a test opener. Being a right hander to complement Cook is the icing on the cake as well.

1.Cook
2.Hameed
3.Jennings
4.Root
5.Moeen
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Woakes/Wood/Ball
9.Rashid
10.Broad
11.Anderson

I hope that the XI for the 1st test of the summer lines up like that. I'm skeptical about Moeen as a top 5 batsman but he has scored the runs this year to deserve the chance.

If changes to the top 6 are needed after that then it's a case of deciding whether to bring in a new middle order batsman (for my money Joe Clarke will be a test player sooner rather than later) or shifting Bairstow up the order and finding a new gloveman (Buttler in pole then Foakes from the Lions).

The Carlos team looks reasonable . I do share the reservations about Jennings ; but I'm hopeful he might fit the number three spot allowing Root to return to four - which make it all look a bit more solid.
Rashid ? Suspect it depends a bit on the pitches...but I'm not sure having him in the XI makes much sense if they aren't helping the spinner significantly at least over the latter couple of days. Just possible Dawson would be an alternative if they want control...or they might pick Leach !

However it is SA first up : I suspect England will want the insurance of a long batting order so I fancy Moeen is rather more likely to line up at eight , at least at the beginning of the season. Which means the number five is still a big ?

As said a few times I wouldn't be surprised to see Joe Clarke make a debut sooner rather than later, alfie.

He's the sort of player the England selectors love. He's come through all their systems, been involved with a county since he was a young lad, played for England through the age group sides, been away on on England Performance Programme camp and now toured with the Lions.

ECB jokes aside though, he has good technique of front and back foot. He has the range of strokes to score quickly and fluidly as a middle order batsman needs. Most importantly he's been backing up his talent with runs for Worcs. If he can score a few runs early in the season and someone in the top order struggles then I could see him being blooded quickly to give him time before the Ashes.

There will be a few middle order batsman in county cricket looking to score big in the first half of the summer to get a chance though. The first test against SA isn't until July so there is plenty of cricket to be played.

Whilst Duckett doesn't look a test opener and struggled against Ashwin, he is much better in home conditions and could still make a useful middle order batsman.

Jennings poor technique against the short ball will really be tested by South Africa. If he struggles there then I can't imagine the coaches will be sympathetic with an Ashes tour down under coming up.

I can't see Ballance getting another chance soon despite him still having a better record than Stokes, Moeen or Buttler though. He struggles against the short ball, his footwork goes missing against top end pace and loses his confidence very quickly. The best thing for him at this stage will be getting a full summer under his belt with Yorkshire (where he is now captain) and hopefully scoring runs again.

Whether people like it or not Ian Bell getting a recall isn't too far off if he rediscovers his best form with Warks.

I'd go with

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Moeen
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Wood/Ball
Broad
Anderson

It should be noted that with the first test being late in the summer due to the champions trophy, there will be time for players to make their case in county cricket. My side probably has too many seamers, so I actually expect them to put Moeen down to 8 lose Wood/Ball and bring in another bat who's made runs in the early championship games

alfie wrote:

But KP_f. ... Monty better than Swann ?  Not having that in a million years...he was a decent bowler , nothing more. His record is OK ; but as he tended to be picked mainly when they were playing on spinning tracks , it really isn't anything special.  
Ironic that his best performance (India 2012) turned out to be nearly a sign off...he did nothing in NZ a few months later and the less said about Ashes 2013:14 the better...
Swann was in another class altogether.

I didn't say better  .....the most talented is what I said
talent to me means---> flight, control, loop, spin, revs, variations, smooth fluid left arm spinners action, joy to watch.....reminiscent of Bedi when in rhythm...too bad he lost his mind 


Swann was more effective, more successful and delivered more.....but that's different from talent.....many other facets like temperament, cleverness, discipline etc come into play here.

KP_fan wrote:Monty was a very good spinner.....more talented than Swann....the most talented English spinner I have seen

a sad read on the current situation of Monty

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/sport/2016/12/what-was-i

OK , noted , KP_f....that makes more sense . Not sure I totally agree , (I am not big on aesthetics in a bowler ) but the distinction is a sound one.

Olly : your listed team does look a bit pace heavy - but your last sentence accords with my expectation (and preferred course).
Wonder if the Carlos choice Joe Clarke will be that player ?

PS . Just watched Ian Bell blazing a nice quick fifty for the Scorchers in the BBL

It's probably wrong to go back now....but just maybe bell was disposed of a bit too quickly. Especially given the fact that other components of the top six were far from settled.

Bell was dropped with the expectation being that Taylor was the long term solution at 5 which despite his fairly poo record seemed the sensible thing considering he was technically very good, not flawed and had a superb county record.

I wouldn't want to see Moeen at 5 this summer. I think the Saffers will gobble him up with his obvious weakness against the short ball. Play him at 8 and no Rashid. Bairstow at five and Buttler at 7 keeping wicket would be my inclination - unless someone (either Foakes or a batsman, Joe Clarke or Duckett again away from India?) starts the season on fire.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Bell was dropped with the expectation being that Taylor was the long term solution at 5 which despite his fairly poo record seemed the sensible thing considering he was technically very good, not flawed and had a superb county record.

Bell also averaged mid 30's in the county championship this past summer - they made the right decision in regards to him

Suppose this is a good a place as any to broadcast my Christmas Greetings to all my friends on 606v2...and as it wants only a couple of hours to midnight - at least here in the Great South Land...

Arguments and disagreements aside : all the very best to all of you for Christmas . Hope it is a happy time for everyone

Best wishes for a merry Christmas and a happy new year

Merry Christmas to all!!!!!

Dhoni retired as captain ....Cook behind the times as always

Obviously it will be Kohli who takes over... #no-brainer