6N 2016: Wales vs Italy - Super Saturday

Here we go again. Big win for Wales please, and then back to the drawing board.

Saturday, 19 March
Wales v Italy (Principality Stadium, 14:30 GMT)

Wales

Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Hallam Amos; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Scott Baldwin, Samson Lee; Bradley Davies, Luke Charteris; Dan Lydiate (C), Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Tomas Francis*, Jake Ball, Ross Moriarty, Gareth Davies, Rhys Priestland, Gareth Anscombe.

*Francis is pending disciplinary action, Jarvis is on standby.


Italy

TBC

I posted this on the England v Wales thread, now I'm posting it here:

Scott Baldwin has been poor all tournament and I don't know what Ken Owens has done to upset Gatland. Cuthbert - well, I don't need to say a thing, you all saw the match.

What would make me really angry, and what I can see happening, is Gatland saying 'same again', and giving the same starting XV a chance to redeem themselves. What would we learn from that that we don't already know? There are players in the squad that have bided their time and seen the incumbents play poorly. Those players need to start next week.

I'd like to see a few changes for this fixture. Warbs is 50/50, and for that reason I would rest him, I don't believe Tipuric is the better player. I'd think of resting AWJ as well, but a few may disagree.

15. Williams
14. Amos
13. Davies
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Anscombe
9. Webb
8. Faletau
7. Tipuric
6. Lydaite
5. Charteris
4. Davies
3. Lee
2. Owens
1. Evans

James/Jenkins, Baldwin, Jarvis, Ball/Day, Moriarty, Davies, Biggar, Priestland.

Yes Biggar on the bench, as Anscombe needs a run. I'm not sure on the fitness of some, whilst Francis is halfway to a ban.

Wales 50 Italy 10

I know we all want a professional performance, and one where the team doesn't take unnecessary risks, etc., etc. But I'd love to see us go out and play like we did in the last 10 minutes against England, but for 80 mins. Not sure if it's even possible, but why not? Yes, England were a man down but it was the attacking intent rather than the one man advantage that I loved to see. I have to say that Priestland did get the back line moving in a different way to Biggar. He stands much flatter than Biggar which brings the back line onto the ball at pace. Not saying he should start necessarily, but perhaps Biggar can learn something from this style and mix it up a bit. The way he stands so deep, our backs have to do so much work just to get up to the gainline. A couple of passes from the ruck along the line and we're 40 metres behind the gainline already! A bit of variety might help to keep the opposition guessing too.

Cuthbert. I try not to be too critical, but on Saturday I was in stitches at times. It was comical. We were playing 'Cuthbert watch' in the pub. He was literally running around like a headless chicken. He chased the high ball at one point and I expected him to smash the opposition catcher, but he was nowhere near! Over ran it by about 5 metres. And then his wing was clear and unmarked for a break which luckily didn't lead to a try. His tackling was awful. For the one try I think he just rubbed his hands on the England player. Rubbed them and propelled him forward towards the try line! And then at one point he had the ball in our own half and literally handed it to the England winger. Just gave it to him, like a present at a kids party! I've said this before but Gatland's method of allowing a player to regain confidence for international rugby by playing international rugby is really flawed. For me you should regain confidence and form at club level and then if you're playing the best out of all other Welsh wingers then you get selected for the national team. NOT selected because you're 'in the system', know the structures and calls, look half decent in training (while other wingers are left at their clubs so cannot show how good they might be in training), and will come good one day when confidence is regained. This is damaging him more so than helping him, IMO. It's car crash reality TV. It's not fair on the player.

If I were a Wales fan I think I would want them to show a slightly different approach for this game. Aside from being a six nations game it is essentially a dead rubber against a relatively poor side. Maybe try out a bit of a plan B from the off? Play with some of the style and commitment from the end of the England game?

What do the Wales fans think?

screamingaddabs wrote:If I were a Wales fan I think I would want them to show a slightly different approach for this game.  Aside from being a six nations game it is essentially a dead rubber against a relatively poor side.  Maybe try out a bit of a plan B from the off?  Play with some of the style and commitment from the end of the England game?

What do the Wales fans think?

The Six Nations title has gone. We should use this game to look at our options ahead of the World Cup, in terms of personnel and strategy. But I'm almost certain we'll see minimal experimentation, win, and learn nothing.

Griff wrote:Gatland's method of allowing a player to regain confidence for international rugby by playing international rugby is really flawed.  For me you should regain confidence and form at club level and then if you're playing the best out of all other Welsh wingers then you get selected for the national team.  NOT selected because you're 'in the system', know the structures and calls, look half decent in training (while other wingers are left at their clubs so cannot show how good they might be in training), and will come good one day when confidence is regained.  This is damaging him more so than helping him, IMO.  It's car crash reality TV.  It's not fair on the player.

Agreed. It didn't help Priestland when he was off his game, and it's clearly not helping Cuthbert. What's more, it can't be helping players like Hallam Amos, who must be wondering what more they have to do to get a game.

Lads, enough of the honesty regarding Cuthbert. You'll make BedfordWelsh turn up and start slagging off George North.

Fly-half Edoardo Padovani, prop Lorenzo Cittadini, Exeter centre Michele Campagnaro and lock George Biagi have all been ruled out through injury, they apparently join the other 14 players injured that missed the Ireland game.

Personally I'd pick our first choice line up and
tell them to make amends for the shambles in this tournament so far.

Shifty wrote:Fly-half Edoardo Padovani, prop Lorenzo Cittadini, Exeter centre Michele Campagnaro and lock George Biagi have all been ruled out through injury, they apparently join the other 14 players injured that missed the Ireland game.

Personally I'd pick our first choice line up and
tell them to make amends for the shambles in this tournament so far.

That's the kind of thinking that causes Team Wales problems. They generally do react the next game, but then it'll only paper over the cracks and then problem will just happen again.

Mikey, your team is almost a match to Andy Howell's. He went for Moriarty over Lydiate. His justification for resting AWJ and Biggar was that they would be more beneficial to Ospreys rested, with this game a dead rubber and Ospreys with some work to do to make top six. He also made JD2 captain though.

We all know Wales can play exciting rugby, but what good would it do putting say 50 points on Italy, if they use the same players that played against England. Surely the replacement would be better off starting and put their replacements on the bench.

Although it may be time for Gatland to make whole changes( bring in an entirely new team) and blood some new players.

Great images!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Great images!

Yep

majesticimperialman wrote: We all know Wales can play exciting rugby, but what good would it do putting say 50 points on Italy, if they use the same players that played against England. Surely the replacement would be better off starting and put their replacements on the bench.

Although it may be time for Gatland to make whole changes( bring in an entirely new team) and blood some new players.

Lots of changes has proven to not help Wales blood new players. Examples off the top of my head are the Japan tour, Ireland in the RWC warm up and Fiji in the AIs a few years back. We should give some players like Amos/Moriarty a chance, but they should be played alongside players who usually start.

Please rest biggar,Awj, webb,Lydiate, Baldwin and tips.

No point risking Warbs to be honest, if he is even a slight doubt. I don't think Biggar has ever really shaken off the knock he got against Ireland early on, so I'd start Priestland in this one.

I don't want to make wholesale changes, because I don't think that is beneficial to anyone. Expecting pretty much a whole 15 to gel and play well together would be an impossible challenge. So along with the two above, I'd give Amos a game and start Webb over G. Davies. Charteris for Bradley is an obvious one for me too. I think Owens is a better impact sub than starter too, so I'd keep it the same there.

My Welsh team would be:
Liam W
Amos
JD
JR
Priestland
Webb
Evans
Owens
Lee
Charteris
Thornton
Moriarty
Faletau
Tipuric.

My bench would be:
Jenkins/James
Dacey
Jarvis
Ball
King
Biggar
Keelan Giles
Tom James.

Radical choices could be playing Priestland or Biggar at inside centre,Priestland or Sam Davies getting a half each at 10,Tipuric at inside centre.AWJ and Bradley rested.It'll never happen of course but fortune favours the brave.

I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

If they can't improve on that dramatically then changes need to be made. Hopefully this will encourage competition for places and improve the overall performance of all our squad.

So exactly how many chances does Cuthbert get to 'make amends' ?

munkian wrote:So exactly how many chances does Cuthbert get to 'make amends' ?

Actually that is a good point. Cuthbert was awful.

Maybe Amos or Morgan to replace him.

maestegmafia wrote:

munkian wrote:So exactly how many chances does Cuthbert get to 'make amends' ?

Actually that is a good point. Cuthbert was awful.

Maybe Amos or Morgan to replace him.

If Morgan gets picked ahead of Amos I'll be tamping.

maestegmafia wrote:I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

If they can't improve on that dramatically then changes need to be made. Hopefully this will encourage competition for places and improve the overall performance of all our squad.

I think that's what Gatland will do as well. Rhys Webb may possibly get a start with Davies on the bench.

Gatland backed Cuthbert ahead of the England game so I don't think he'll reverse his position and drop him now. Wales are likely to get a fair bit of attacking ball so I suspect Cuthbert will be given another run.

Amos didn't play against Edinburgh in the home game this season so I've yet to see him live. Judging by the constant calls for his selection on here I'm expecting a hybrid of Jeff Wilson, David Campese, Shane Williams and Jason Robinson.

Personally I would have Amos in instead of Cuthbert, come to think of it I'd have ANYBODY in before Cuthbert, but going by the points that were made earlier in this tournament by the coaches that Hallam is not quick enough to be a wing, perhaps somebody different will be selected.

maestegmafia wrote:I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

I think that's what they call rewarding failure. There's no way Cuthbert and Baldwin should be given another start.

Starting XV: Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Hallam Amos; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Scott Baldwin, Samson Lee; Bradley Davies, Luke Charteris; Dan Lydiate (C), Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Tomas Francis*, Jake Ball, Ross Moriarty, Gareth Davies, Rhys Priestland, Gareth Anscombe.

RiscaGame wrote:

Shifty wrote:Fly-half Edoardo Padovani, prop Lorenzo Cittadini, Exeter centre Michele Campagnaro and lock George Biagi have all been ruled out through injury, they apparently join the other 14 players injured that missed the Ireland game.

Personally I'd pick our first choice line up and
tell them to make amends for the shambles in this tournament so far.

That's the kind of thinking that causes Team Wales problems. They generally do react the next game, but then it'll only paper over the cracks and then problem will just happen again.

Mikey, your team is almost a match to Andy Howell's. He went for Moriarty over Lydiate. His justification for resting AWJ and Biggar was that they would be more beneficial to Ospreys rested, with this game a dead rubber and Ospreys with some work to do to make top six. He also made JD2 captain though.

If Italy are that badly hit by injuries then we really should make some changes ourselves.

Risca when did Howell name that team? Not a bad idea but still, I'll stick with my team and I'll actually put Morgan on the bench in place of Priestland. For those calling for RP to start, what will that teach us? Apart from that he's not good enough for international rugby but may do well against an injury-hit wooden spoon team, absolutely nothing. As for captain well there's a few options I'd choose over JD2; Owens, Charteris, Lydiate, Roberts, Webb...

Shows what I know!!

Cuthbert replaced by Amos. Good opportunity to see what the lad is capable of as he should get plenty of ball.

I think Webb for Davies makes sense and obviously AWJ missing out lets Charteris back into the XV. Is Warburton injured or is Gatland just giving Tipuric a start?

I'd have been tempted by James Davies on the bench ahead of Moriarty.

maestegmafia wrote:I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

If they can't improve on that dramatically then changes need to be made. Hopefully this will encourage competition for places and improve the overall performance of all our squad.

Yep, I'd say it is this philosophy that has held us back for about 3 years.

If they won't improve, what is to stop the same line being rolled out again?

mikey_dragon wrote:I'd like to see a few changes for this fixture. Warbs is 50/50, and for that reason I would rest him, I don't believe Tipuric is the better player. I'd think of resting AWJ as well, but a few may disagree.

15. Williams
14. Amos
13. Davies
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Anscombe
9. Webb
8. Faletau
7. Tipuric
6. Lydaite
5. Charteris
4. Davies
3. Lee
2. Owens
1. Evans

James/Jenkins, Baldwin, Jarvis, Ball/Day, Moriarty, Davies, Biggar, Priestland.

Yes Biggar on the bench, as Anscombe needs a run. I'm not sure on the fitness of some, whilst Francis is halfway to a ban.

You must be thrilled with Gatland as Anscombe for Biggar aside and Owens/Baldwin he's gone with your chosen XV.

It's good when the fans and coach are singing from the same hymn sheet.....

mikey_dragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

If they can't improve on that dramatically then changes need to be made. Hopefully this will encourage competition for places and improve the overall performance of all our squad.

Yep, I'd say it is this philosophy that has held us back for about 3 years.

If they won't improve, what is to stop the same line being rolled out again?

Worries me too.

Umm is that actually the team or just his selection? As I've not seen anything online... Speaking of resting AWJ I've just read a report that he is to be out for a few weeks with an ankle injury.

mikey_dragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

If they can't improve on that dramatically then changes need to be made. Hopefully this will encourage competition for places and improve the overall performance of all our squad.

Yep, I'd say it is this philosophy that has held us back for about 3 years.

If they won't improve, what is to stop the same line being rolled out again?

Exactly. No one would ever get dropped with that mentality - you'd have to wait for an injury or a retirement to win your first cap.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'd like to see a few changes for this fixture. Warbs is 50/50, and for that reason I would rest him, I don't believe Tipuric is the better player. I'd think of resting AWJ as well, but a few may disagree.

15. Williams
14. Amos
13. Davies
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Anscombe
9. Webb
8. Faletau
7. Tipuric
6. Lydaite
5. Charteris
4. Davies
3. Lee
2. Owens
1. Evans

James/Jenkins, Baldwin, Jarvis, Ball/Day, Moriarty, Davies, Biggar, Priestland.

Yes Biggar on the bench, as Anscombe needs a run. I'm not sure on the fitness of some, whilst Francis is halfway to a ban.

You must be thrilled with Gatland as Anscombe for Biggar aside and Owens/Baldwin he's gone with your chosen XV.

It's good when the fans and coach are singing from the same hymn sheet.....

Yep, TR was right as I've just seen the team. Lydiate is captain and Francis is on the bench pending disciplinary action. If he is banned then Jarvis will take his place. I can't believe Baldwin wasn't swapped with Owens though.

FES, Gats is often on the blower to me asking for my opinion, so it comes as no surprise to me. Ask Guby

mikey_dragon wrote:Umm is that actually the team or just his selection? As I've not seen anything online... Speaking of resting AWJ I've just read a report that he is to be out for a few weeks with an ankle injury.

Team was announced at 1100

Read above, it's not difficult.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35807441

Sam and Alun-Wyn both injured

Am I reading it correctly, that all the changes except for Gareth Davies are down to injuries? That seems to be quite fortunate for Gatland, not having to drop anyone.

Well we know Sam was injured and I didn't think Alun-Wyn was anywhere near his best, all of us watching in the house thought he was carrying some sort of injury from early on

Owens should definately be starting this weekend! Been the best hooker in wales for the last couple of seasons now, dont know what it is with gatland but over the last 3 years he continually picks players who are out of form over players that are in better form, picking preistland for over a year when it was clear that he was struggling for confidence and biggar was in better form, followed by picking an out of form cuthbert for over a year when there were several other options, the players get abused on social media when in reality the coaches should'nt be consistently putting them in that position in the first place

Should give Eliot Dee a shot soon too.

Looks like a good team despite the changes due to injury.

mikey_dragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would take the same team in to this game. Bar injury and citings.

The lads need another chance to prove that they are better than the performance they displayed in the first half last Saturday.

If they can't improve on that dramatically then changes need to be made. Hopefully this will encourage competition for places and improve the overall performance of all our squad.

Yep, I'd say it is this philosophy that has held us back for about 3 years.

If they won't improve, what is to stop the same line being rolled out again?

Just said similar on another thread.

Oh and Howell picked that team yesterday, I think.

Does make me wonder whether he's trying to protect cuthbert by this injury talk, or whether cement really didn't want to drop him. Probably the latter, knowing how cement works.

Gatland seems to view selection almost like a negative feedback loop: if a player stuffs up he will given them another chance to redeem themselves until his selection is justified:

played poorly ----> select to redeem ----> played poorly ---> select to redeem ----> played poorly ---> select to redeem ----> played poorly ---> select to redeem ---> Played well! Selection justified. Stop questioning selection.

In some ways it's loyalty, in others it's a total lack of trust in players out side the 1st 15 or 22.

I know he's gone for Amos, but in the past I don't see what the gamble is with trying someone else over Cuthbert, for instance. It's not like Cuthbert has been doing us in defensively but also making up for it with a few tries. His influence is mainly negative. And again, is it his fault? He's being picked when woefully off form. So stick in someone else. The worst that could happen? A revolving door on the wing lack of potency in attack. Big deal! We've got that already. The fact it takes 10 games to try someone means we're not finding out about the wider squad players.

Baldwin. Generally OK, but not a great tournament. Ken Owens looks good. Give him a try out this time. That's not wholesale changes. It's potentially an improvement, but I don't think Gats can ever sees that opportunity. He always thinks he's weakening his team by leaving out the stalwarts.

First off there still a game to win and chucking a complete new side in could have lost and then he would have got slated for that to and for disrespecting Italy.

That said I would have made a few more changes,

Owens for Baldwin
M Morgan on bench though not huge fan
Even possible I might have plumped for Priestland at 10

I don't see what's wrong with giving Matthew Morgan a start. It's not like the end of the world if he struggles. We have a bench full of replacements. So I'd start him, put Liam Williams (who has been rushed back from injury) on the bench, and then he's the safe pair of hands to bring on if M Morgan goes belly up.

I'd like to see Webb, maybe Priestland, Morgan, Owens and Amos start. Not wholesale changes, but still a large number. But don't put 3rd choices on the bench. Put the usual starters there to steady the ship if the others are struggling. Best of both worlds then.

Just to add, and this flies in the face of my Matthew Morgan selection, but increasingly I wonder if Tipuric is a viable test level player due to his lack of size.  Happy to accept a few open hand slaps across the chops by his fans, and put in my place if I am incorrect, but he seems a bit small for a backrow player at this level.  Size isn't everything of course, and on the wing some guile and agility can overcome size restrictions.  But at open side in the modern international game he seems to struggle a bit at the breakdown.  He's blasted off the ball by generally bigger players.  He's a bit ineffective in that role I feel and we're instantly at a disadvantage.  I'm a fan of players doing the primary job really well first, and that's why they're selected, and then having something extra to offer is a bonus and perhaps makes them stand out e.g. a hooker who throws the darts straight and true but can also jackal and score tries as a bonus.  As a flanker his loose play should be secondary to his ruck and tackle area ability. However, he seems to be a better link man with the backs than a ruck king.  He's got it at club level were players might be smaller and less powerful overall, and he's a really good club player, but maybe test level is a step too far?  Am I very wrong???

Saturdays game when it broke up and this Saturdays game should be right up Tipurics alley but he didn't do a lot last week so lets see what he can do this week.

I hope Moriarty get a good run and like said am not a Morgan fan but as Griff said guess it wouldn't have done any harm.

Would have had him on the bench at least as can't see the point of having Priestland and Anscombe there.

Tipuric has never looked too small for an international openside to me in the 40+ games hes played and considering hes actually bigger than the likes of Michael Hooper says it all