Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

Slade is reportedly recovering so fast that he could be playing again in March. Too late for the 6N but definitely encouraging for the tour

So is Ewers...hes pretty much back already. Another boost for the summer tour.

Eddie going very well so far. His coaches are doing great too. They tried a few things today that didn't come off but they gave it a go. When they click they will look very good. They are definitely going in the right direction. Robshaw looked ineffective though.

Thought Haskell looked back to his erratic best.

I didn't even realise Robshaw was playing until he got took off.

Really? Classic 7 turnover pen included?

Now that Youngs is gone, Poolys next target of hate will be Robshaw. Watch it get more irrational and angst filled as time goes on

I think most other forwardss were doing plenty of eye-catching big rush hits etc, but I'm pretty sure if you look at the stats Robshaw will be working as hard as anyone on the pitch as usual.

I think we're developing a good suite of back rowers to pick and choose from depening on the opposition, and Robshaw is still a part of that. Haskell is best when you just turn him loose hulk style to go out and smash everything. Clifford the pacy option, Itoje looking great too but early days for both of them.

I did think Itoje looked great when he came on.

What I noticed about Robshaw is that although some of the hares got a mention on the kick chase and 'offensive defense' for want of a better phrase, Robshaw was often if not always the next guy there. He is not the fastest guy out there but he can be brilliant at being in the right place at the right time

Well Marler coming on for MV certainly settled the argument about who is the best scrummaging prop. Instant and continued scrummage success.

Hill did well against a very experienced prop for a 20 year old, hardly noticed Cole had gone off.

Has Cole put the weight back on that he used to have until SL told him to slim down, he looks bulkier now and the better for it.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Well Marler coming on for MV certainly settled the argument about who is the best scrummaging prop. Instant and continued scrummage success.

Hill did well against a very experienced prop for a 20 year old, hardly noticed Cole had gone off.

Has Cole put the weight back on that he used to have until SL told him to slim down, he looks bulkier now and the better for it.

Cole is looking like he's enjoying himself which is a good thing

yappysnap wrote:Now that Youngs is gone, Poolys next target of hate will be Robshaw. Watch it get more irrational and angst filled as time goes on

No no no! Youngs is an extremely special case.

Robshaw is real honest pro and tries his heart out, I almost feel for him. He's just Mr Average, not really great at anything which is no bad thing. He's just going to have to move aside soon.

Do have to be exceptional at one thing to be a success? Personally I think Haskell has exceptional attributes (mainly meat headed ones) and it's an easy decision towards Robshaw if it's a choice between the 2.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Now that Youngs is gone, Poolys next target of hate will be Robshaw. Watch it get more irrational and angst filled as time goes on

No no no! Youngs is an extremely special case.

Robshaw is real honest pro and tries his heart out, I almost feel for him. He's just Mr Average, not really great at anything which is no bad thing. He's just going to have to move aside soon.

So your saying youngs isn't an honest pro and didn't try his heart out? Bit harsh to be honest.

Robshaw made 13 tackles and missed none. Haskell made 8 and missed none.

Robshaw carried four times for 4 metres (only Lawes and the Vunipolas did more among the starting forwards). Haskell carried once for no gain.

Robshaw got one turnover, Haskell had none. (I think Robshaw got it following up a Haskell tackle)

Robshaw gave away one penalty while Haskell gave away three, including one which might have drawn a yellow on a different day.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/254983.html

But Haskell did it faster and in a red hat. I said it last week (and I know it's a stupid point) but players with bright hats really or/and obvious physical differences catch some peoples eye more. Some just blend in. For this see Ben Kay (I think) lamenting Fords start and bad pass in the lead up to Italy's first 3 points; unfortunately it was Farrell's bad pass. If he was wearing Cipriani head head gear...

Rugby Fan wrote:Robshaw made 13 tackles and missed none. Haskell made 8 and missed none.

Robshaw carried four times for 4 metres (only Lawes and the Vunipolas did more among the starting forwards). Haskell carried once for no gain.

Robshaw got one turnover, Haskell had none. (I think Robshaw got it following up a Haskell tackle)

Robshaw gave away one penalty while Haskell gave away three, including one which might have drawn a yellow on a different day.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/254983.html

Those stats show turnovers conceded, not won

So one turnover won for Robshaw and 1 lost? Always think a loss is more the fault of the team anyway. Like Launchbury getting one last week.

Turnovers conceded can be all manner of things from knock ons (usually the player at fault), to getting tackled into touch (again often the player's fault), to getting pinged for holding on (usually the team's fault for a poor clear out unless the player has clearly run away from the support)

Ah just the inevitable change in possession stats. Always feel they should throw in the 'over the ball' (for want of a phrase!) stats as well. That would have Robshaw 1 0 Haskell.

I really wouldn't be surprised to see a change in the backrow for Ireland, whether that be Itoje at 6 or Clifford at 7. Or Jones could be set on Itoje covering lock at that point. Too many options to guess.

Yeah, more changes to possession where some manner of error is involved. A normal kick down field doesn't register as one (or full backs would have about 10 a game!)

Agree, that we may see one of Hask or Robshaw drop out of the 15 for Ireland. Will be interesting to see how Eddie plays it.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Well Marler coming on for MV certainly settled the argument about who is the best scrummaging prop. Instant and continued scrummage success.

Hill did well against a very experienced prop for a 20 year old, hardly noticed Cole had gone off.

Has Cole put the weight back on that he used to have until SL told him to slim down, he looks bulkier now and the better for it.

Really? I don't think the argument is settled, Marler looked good from the bench like every other sub, helps when your team mates have softened up the opposition. Quite clearly that was the English tactic and it worked.

By your logic every bench option should start against Ireland. Every bench option looked better than their starting counterpart. Unfortunately more questions than answers.

I think Robshaw is generally criticised because he's not a particularly good ball carrier. Backrow is about balance, I guess the main question - does Robshaw's lack of carrying ability mean he shouldn't be starting? I don't know - perhaps in the short term, keep him.Afterall he's been a good servant of England.

I think the bigger worry is the poor form of Hartley. After a solid performance vs Scotland I thought he would have put in another solid performance against Italy but I wasn't convinced. He did fine in the scrum but at lineout time he was poor, yes Kruis should take some responsibility too but Kruis offered much more around the park than Hartley. Hartley's discipline also was a bit patchy in my opinion.

Then of course you have Jamie George who shone albeit against battered opposition. England can't afford for Hartley to have another dodgy day at the office.

Hartley shouldn't get a free pass at lineout time, T.Youngs never did.

There is always that bit to consider with impact from the bench. In the prop terms I think Marler is the stronger scrummager and Vunipola better in the loose. For me they work better with Vunipola coming from the bench where his strengths really shine.

Lineout did appear to be more the Italians knew where the throw was going. Possibly an argument to play itoje at 6 to strengthen the options but that won't help if Kruis calls it to himself all the time. Is the Ben Kay stat about the first 10 lineouts (?) being called to himself vs Scotland? Didn't notice it at the time.

There were a few dodgy throws by Hartley too, if we are going to use the same set of standards as we do other hookers then people should be calling for him to be dropped.

Same standards for me means not nathan!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same standards for me means not nathan!

I was meaning another posters standards on here in how he rates a hooker.

The glee and eagerness that some have to point out flaws in England players who may possibly be keeping their favourite club's players out of the squad is very boring at times

As is the eagerness to have complete double standards on how to rate players coming off the bench or starting, depending on whether they play for your club or not

BamBam wrote:The glee and eagerness that some have to point out flaws in England players who may possibly be keeping their favourite club's players out of the squad is very boring at times

Maybe, but then it's also boring to hear people repeat Poopie just because they don't like a player.

Also, I don't believe Hartley shouldnt be starting, I believe George should be starting - nothing to do with Tom youngs.

Hartley was never in form and first choice at his club, let alone playing for england

Nathan you know I wouldn't have started Hartley against Scotland or had him as captain.

You know who I would have started. I haven't exactly been subtle!

Sadly England have pushed themselves into a corner in regards to hooker.

By making Hartley captain they have put him on a pedestal.

Unfortunately Hartley will likely have to start vs Ireland. George has barely had any game time -

4 minutes vs Scotland and 10 vs Italy is mere scraps.

Bambam I assume you are referring to me.

I said you can't look too much into the bench performance, yes that includes George and Itoje. Both played well but it was against opposition who were battered and ground down by the starting XV.

I wouldn't start either vs Ireland. Bench options definitely though.

nathan wrote:

BamBam wrote:The glee and eagerness that some have to point out flaws in England players who may possibly be keeping their favourite club's players out of the squad is very boring at times

Maybe, but then it's also boring to hear people repeat Poopie just because they don't like a player.

Also, I don't believe Hartley shouldnt be starting, I believe George should be starting - nothing to do with Tom youngs.

Hartley was never in form and first choice at his club, let alone playing for england

But in fairness I really think Haskell is too erratic!

Still - George and the quick line out. Quite frankly wtf was he thinking....

lostinwales wrote:Still - George and the quick line out. Quite frankly wtf was he thinking....

Everyone has a brain fart now and again, doesn't mean an automatically drop of the player

nathan wrote:

BamBam wrote:The glee and eagerness that some have to point out flaws in England players who may possibly be keeping their favourite club's players out of the squad is very boring at times

Maybe, but then it's also boring to hear people repeat Poopie just because they don't like a player.

Also, I don't believe Hartley shouldnt be starting, I believe George should be starting - nothing to do with Tom youngs.

Hartley was never in form and first choice at his club, let alone playing for england

Not just picking on you nathan, see plenty of it with others too

beshocked wrote:Nathan you know I wouldn't have started Hartley against Scotland or had him as captain.

You know who I would have started. I haven't exactly been subtle!

Sadly England have pushed themselves into a corner in regards to hooker.

By making Hartley captain they have put him on a pedestal.

Unfortunately Hartley will likely have to start vs Ireland. George has barely had any game time -

4 minutes vs Scotland and 10 vs Italy is mere scraps.

Bambam I assume you are referring to me.

I said you can't look too much into the bench performance, yes that includes George and Itoje. Both played well but it was against opposition who were battered and ground down by the starting XV.

I wouldn't start either vs Ireland. Bench options definitely though.

Not talking about Itoje or George

It was the ease with which you dismissed Marler's bench performance that I picked up on.

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still - George and the quick line out. Quite frankly wtf was he thinking....

Everyone has a brain fart now and again, doesn't mean an automatically drop of the player

Oh I know that. His pass for Farrell's try was sublime and we do need to see more of him. Mind you, if a player like, say, May, had done that.....

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Nathan you know I wouldn't have started Hartley against Scotland or had him as captain.

You know who I would have started. I haven't exactly been subtle!

Sadly England have pushed themselves into a corner in regards to hooker.

By making Hartley captain they have put him on a pedestal.

Unfortunately Hartley will likely have to start vs Ireland. George has barely had any game time -

4 minutes vs Scotland and 10 vs Italy is mere scraps.

Bambam I assume you are referring to me.

I said you can't look too much into the bench performance, yes that includes George and Itoje. Both played well but it was against opposition who were battered and ground down by the starting XV.

I wouldn't start either vs Ireland. Bench options definitely though.

Not talking about Itoje or George

It was the ease with which you dismissed Marler's bench performance that I picked up on.

I thought all the subs did well, but it was part of our game plan that made them look better. First half to wear Italy down and then second to pull away. Not taking anything away from the subs though.

lostinwales wrote:

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still - George and the quick line out. Quite frankly wtf was he thinking....

Everyone has a brain fart now and again, doesn't mean an automatically drop of the player

Oh I know that. His pass for Farrell's try was sublime and we do need to see more of him. Mind you, if a player like, say, May, had done that.....

Jonny May though is Forrest Gump to a T. Only just learnt that you get no points for running sideways.

lostinwales wrote:

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still - George and the quick line out. Quite frankly wtf was he thinking....

Everyone has a brain fart now and again, doesn't mean an automatically drop of the player

Oh I know that. His pass for Farrell's try was sublime and we do need to see more of him. Mind you, if a player like, say, May, had done that.....

I completely understand that, that's what annoys me. People have hatred of some players and judge them in a different set of standards to other players.

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still - George and the quick line out. Quite frankly wtf was he thinking....

Everyone has a brain fart now and again, doesn't mean an automatically drop of the player

Oh I know that. His pass for Farrell's try was sublime and we do need to see more of him. Mind you, if a player like, say, May, had done that.....

I completely understand that, that's what annoys me. People have hatred of some players and judge them in a different set of standards to other players.

People probably hate May because he has so much abilty and raw pace yet he tends to be a little too arrogant and still plays like he's playing schoolboy rugby.. i.e. runing laterally to find a gap. Same with Billy V... still thinks he can bash through players because he's simply 1ft and 4st heavier than most 17yr olds.

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Now that Youngs is gone, Poolys next target of hate will be Robshaw. Watch it get more irrational and angst filled as time goes on

No no no! Youngs is an extremely special case.

Robshaw is real honest pro and tries his heart out, I almost feel for him. He's just Mr Average, not really great at anything which is no bad thing. He's just going to have to move aside soon.

So your saying youngs isn't an honest pro and didn't try his heart out? Bit harsh to be honest.

I'm unsure what Tom Youngs has to do with this.

Youngs has flaws in the basics for his position which is not good enough for England imo. Agree that Hartleys throwing was poor yesterday but his scrummaging is fantastic.

Robshaw, completley different case to Youngs. He's a 100% man and deserves respect. He does everything ok but nothing exceptional. He's a real honest pro but I think we need better to go the next level.

I find it odd that you'd bring up Youngs to have a go at me, just get over my dislike of him in an England jersey, it really matters little that Jones doesn't rate him either. Youngs is a good AP hooker and you're happy with him, that's all that should count.

Bambam actually I said all the bench guys did well including Marler. I even name checked Marler by saying he looked good. Can't call him a better scrummager on that basis though as well past it said though.

Both Mako and Marler good LH options.

It helped all the bench options coming on at the time they did though.

lostinwales when May next does something brilliant you can call me out to give him the praise you believe he deserves.

On a side note Joseph has slammed the door shut on Daly's international hopes at 13 for now.

The rest of the world loves Tom Youngs in an England jersey.

Schalk Brits > Tom Youngs. A bit like saying 100 is better than 4 too.

Schalk Brits has 10 caps for SA. Says it all really. England wasted 40 caps on Lee Mears its laughable how they even gave Youngs a shot.

I don't know why people are getting so het up about a solid win. You'd think England had scraped a win from reading this thread.

Some young players got ten to twenty minutes each (more than last week), and showed that they belong at international level. New combinations have also been tested, so Jones will have a better idea of what works best. Going into the next game, England now have some selection dilemmas, and know that they can field a bench that will make a difference.

fa0019 wrote:The rest of the world loves Tom Youngs in an England jersey.

Schalk Brits > Tom Youngs. A bit like saying 100 is better than 4 too.

Schalk Brits has 10 caps for SA. Says it all really. England wasted 40 caps on Lee Mears its laughable how they even gave Youngs a shot.

Love him or hate him (and its fairly obvious which way you are going with this) when Youngs came through the stock of decent alternatives was very low. I.e. Hartley, and that was it. You couldn't exactly say the same about SA.

Now there is George who is pretty much ready and some younger guys starting to queue up behind him.

lostinwales wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The rest of the world loves Tom Youngs in an England jersey.

Schalk Brits > Tom Youngs. A bit like saying 100 is better than 4 too.

Schalk Brits has 10 caps for SA. Says it all really. England wasted 40 caps on Lee Mears its laughable how they even gave Youngs a shot.

Love him or hate him (and its fairly obvious which way you are going with this) when Youngs came through the stock of decent alternatives was very low. I.e. Hartley, and that was it. You couldn't exactly say the same about SA.

Now there is George who is pretty much ready and some younger guys starting to queue up behind him.

Webber was always better though in the set piece... but didn't offer the same enthusiasm which Lancaster rated so highly. Youngs often lost ball when driving in as well as he is easily turned over (a lot like Mears) but he was a bust a gut type guy who people tend to easily recognise.
That was Lancaster to a T though. He would reward commitment, loyalty and enthusiasm above talent and for me whilst thats to be admired, its wrong.

Youngs is and was a very good hooker. We'll find someone you rate in a white shirt eventually. Hows Billy doing now in your assessment? Would he get into any of the SA club teams yet?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs is and was a very good hooker. We'll find someone you rate in a white shirt eventually. Hows Billy doing now in your assessment? Would he get into any of the SA club teams yet?

Heard Zinny say he rates Faletau, Heaslip, Picamoles and Parisse above him. Thats just in the NH. I don't think there is anyone else. Hes a good player, he could be a great player if he lost 10kg but at the moment there are lots of players around who are better. The talk up after his Scotland carries was completely OTT.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Now that Youngs is gone, Poolys next target of hate will be Robshaw. Watch it get more irrational and angst filled as time goes on

No no no! Youngs is an extremely special case.

Robshaw is real honest pro and tries his heart out, I almost feel for him. He's just Mr Average, not really great at anything which is no bad thing. He's just going to have to move aside soon.

So your saying youngs isn't an honest pro and didn't try his heart out? Bit harsh to be honest.

I'm unsure what Tom Youngs has to do with this.

Youngs has flaws in the basics for his position which is not good enough for England imo. Agree that Hartleys throwing was poor yesterday but his scrummaging is fantastic.

Robshaw, completley different case to Youngs. He's a 100% man and deserves respect. He does everything ok but nothing exceptional. He's a real honest pro but I think we need better to go the next level.

I find it odd that you'd bring up Youngs to have a go at me, just get over my dislike of him in an England jersey, it really matters little that Jones doesn't rate him either. Youngs is a good AP hooker and you're happy with him, that's all that should count.

You said youngs is a special case and so I was just pointing out that you seem to have a different set of standards. He would have to play 10% better than any other hooker in order to get the same praise from you.

It's the comments like you saying youngs isn't a 100% man and doesn't deserve respect which tells us all the sort of person you are.

Anyway, I'm not getting into the same argument with you because it's just tedious.

So your assessment would reflect Zinzane's? And presumably you still think he wouldn't get into a SA club side?

Pele once had Diouf in his greatest 100 (ish) living footballers. He missed out dennis Law (who I only hear was good granted. I always like that example when considering whether an ex pros opinion is infallible

fa0019 was Webber ever a starter for Lancaster? My opinion of Webber is that he's never been good enough for England.

My opinion is well known - Lancaster should have trusted Jamie George during the RWC. Sadly George was 3rd choice behind Webber and Youngs.

I think it was a big mistake.

As for Billy, I know you don't like him but he was statistically the best forward last 6 nations. He had a good RWC aside from his injury too. Started this 6 nations well.

Billy isn't perfect who gets isolated a bit too much but I think that his fellow forwards need to help him out a bit more.