Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

I'm sure they know it, putting it to practice is different. The backs haven't been flowing for about 12 months now. But that's not so relevant when you're talking about the scrummaging ability of Mako/other front rows.

I'd just like the best exponents of the scrum and lineout on the pitch at the start. Vunipola has a lot to offer but I don't think he's as strong as a few looseheads but offers a great deal coming off the bench. I'm not sure we can count on Borthwick hitting the ground running and improve both scrum and lineout, more liekly a longer term thing. It will reveal a lot who he picks but I'm hoping he looks at perceived mistakes of having a pack too focused on open play.

scottrf it's not just about the backs... A team is about the backs and the forwards.

A frontrow these days needs to be able to do more than just scrummage. Needs to be able to be a strong carrier, tackle well, help at the breakdown, help in the rolling mauls.

The scrummage battle was almost a irrelevance in the Racing Metro vs Saints game. Racing Metro forwards overpowered their Saints counterparts.

Vunipola might not be as technically gifted at scrum time as some of his fellow frontrowers but he's shown his value time and again in other ways.

Oh and reffing decisions can sometimes be random anyway.

Seems that we are getting back to being strong in areas we have traditionally been good in. My pick at TH is Brookes as has been the best prop in the league this year. But having him and Cole pushing for that spot, not a bad problem to have.
Hartley for me plays if fit, some distance between him and anyone else. Really not that sold on George, may be proved wrong.
LH is interesting, I would imagine that Marler will start which is understandable. But the replacement is interesting, I beleive that the most talented prop coming through is Auterac but would probably benefit from full season of first 15 at club. Vunipola to be on bench.
Locks I would love to see Launchbury and Itoje, both just ooze class and even if Itoje is still raw his talent is worth the risk. Kruis a very capable backup.
Backrow is Vunipola certainly then questions. Would love for it to be Fraser but just always worry for him injury wise, so Kvesic to be given a run. Not sure about 6, not sold on Robshaw as think he is a work horse but we need something more.

Backs highlight the same weaknesses as always, still no outstanding 9, Youngs form is better and most people would say Simpson is the stadnout SH this year. Hopefully one will emerge and be consistent.
FH, think Ford is suffering from having two SHs at club who are woeful distributers so would still like him starting. 12 is another issue, for all the talk of Burgess keeping out Burrell, nothing this year has made me think England missed out at all. Devastating that Slade was injured as is a star in the making but highlights are huge weak area. Need some youth to hopefully come through and hope Slade returns soonish.

One controversial thing I would like to see this year is Watson being played at fullback, I want to make clear that Brown has done zero wrong but firstly Watson is a fullback really not a winger and one who can go the length on the counter, but secondly it also allows us to see other wingers. Yardes' form has returned and Rokoduguni is still beating men for fun. I believe the back 3 will be the same as at world cup but would like some experimentation too.

Until Mako can bring his loose play form from Sarries to England I will always be doubtful of his value to the team.

It's still Itoje as a starter I scratch my head at. Maybe at a push at 6 but even then some quality players around there. Not good enough at the lineout to sit next to Launchbury and not big enough to sit next to a Parling. No real need to rush him in the short term.

Student A-1 I think you make a lot of very good points. Don't agree with all of it but does show how complicated it is and how people can have such opposing opinions.

Londontiger I thought he showed that in the game vs Fiji prominently, him and his brother working effectively in tandem.

We haven't seen that combo from England from the start have we? I am not saying it would work but it's certainly an option. England certainly have to look to get over the gain line and that means taking the work load off the no 8.

Last time you pushed Mako, I dug up his caree stats tackling and carrying and compared vs Marler. Marler was superior in terms of tackles and yards per minute. You completely disregarded/ignored that so not doing it again. Just saying though that for me Mako has, like many players, looked far more effective for club than country.

beshocked wrote:scottrf it's not just about the backs... A team is about the backs and the forwards.

A frontrow these days needs to be able to do more than just scrummage. Needs to be able to be a strong carrier, tackle well, help at the breakdown, help in the rolling mauls.

The scrummage battle was almost a irrelevance in the Racing Metro vs Saints game. Racing Metro forwards overpowered their Saints counterparts.

Vunipola might not be as technically gifted at scrum time as some of his fellow frontrowers but he's shown his value time and again in other ways.

Oh and reffing decisions can sometimes be random anyway.

Well we have the longest distance made by mauls in the Champions Cup this year so it's not all they do.

Agree with most of Student's last post.

I think Itoje is ready and at 6'5'' and 18st5lb wouldn't say he lacks size. I very much doubt that Parling will be in the squad. If dependable lineout is what is gone for then I would imagine it will be Kruis. I think the fact Itoje is starting and performing against teams like Ulster and Toulose is a good indication he is ready. However I would be happy with Kruis, I struggle to see beyond these two being the partner for Launchbury who is surely a banker.

He looks like a similar stature to Lawes without being as good in the lineout. I'd rather have Slater, Kitchener guys coming to their peak and have been around a while.

I am nit picking, we're got some great players and not much between them, just feel that fraser or Kvesic needs to come in, Robshaw is a helluva player so losing Wood I'd want a really strong 2nd row. Kitchener is the guy who adds ballast for me along with a really great lineout presence. Launchbury is just undroppable for me.

Find it hard to look past Kitchener. Very good line out operator. Big guy who works hard whats not to like?

Tbh we aren't short of quality locks, Launchbury, Kruis, Kitchener, Lawes. Itoje I'd introduce with some bench appearances or the Italy game this 6n, no rush.

Dave Ward starting at 7 again for quins again tomorrow...he's as good a breakdown technician as any English player.

Kind of a shame they ever moved him from 7 given how good he is.

If Launchbury starts, Itoje will not. Neither are strong in the line out or at re-starts.

I read an article yesterday suggesting Launchbury wasn't as much as a banker as most people seem to think he his. It cited his "core lock work" as not being particularly strong and he was more about loose work. I'm pretty sure the article suggested Attwood & Kruis as the best options.

Find it hard to look past Kitchener. Very good line out operator. Big guy who works hard whats not to like?

I think he can be a little lazy at times. I'm not completley sold although he's certainly improved in this area.

Who was saying that sgt?

How much has Attwood played this season?

I certainly cannot remember seeing him doing well - but may be because he has not been playing.


As to hooker, if Hartley can escape the concussion symptoms and play anything like he was at the start of the season he will be selected I feel. If however he is not back playing in the next two weeks things open up. This 6Ns may be too early but Tommy Taylor as about the only AP hooker who strikes for the ball regularly may well interest Jones and Borthwick.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who was saying that sgt?

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/24710/nick-cain-suggests-new-england-coach-eddie-jones-should-seize-his-chance-to-revamp-the-scrum/

They seem to ask more questions than try and give answers but there's some valid points.

"The idea that Joe Launchbury is suddenly the panacea to all England’s front five and captaincy ills is also flush with wishful thinking. Launchbury remains a promising lock who should be in the mix, but he is no towering presence as a lineout or re-start operator, and until those areas are as impressive as his work in the loose sometimes is, he is not assured of a place."

LondonTiger wrote:How much has Attwood played this season?

I certainly cannot remember seeing him doing well - but may be because he has not been playing.


As to hooker, if Hartley can escape the concussion symptoms and play anything like he was at the start of the season he will be selected I feel. If however he is not back playing in the next two weeks things open up. This 6Ns may be too early but Tommy Taylor as about the only AP hooker who strikes for the ball regularly may well interest Jones and Borthwick.

Came back last week and was excellent for Bath who had been playing with no senior second rows previous. Prior to the injury he was also very good albeit in a somewhat unbalanced second row with Dominic Day being injured. The fact that there is so much debate over the best selection shows how this should become an area of strength.

Why we can't do the same in the 12 position ever is pretty gutting.

I agree he's not brilliant in the lineout just good and no one for England seems assured on restarts bar maybe Parling. Absolute nailed on starter for me though. One of the best locks in the world. The author is just doing what we've all been doing, naming anyone remotely in the running. I'd be amazed if Launchbury is fit and doesn't start every game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree he's not brilliant in the lineout just good and no one for England seems assured on restarts bar maybe Parling. Absolute nailed on starter for me though. One of the best locks in the world. The author is just doing what we've all been doing, naming anyone remotely in the running. I'd be amazed if Launchbury is fit and doesn't start every game.

100% agree with this comment.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who was saying that sgt?

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/24710/nick-cain-suggests-new-england-coach-eddie-jones-should-seize-his-chance-to-revamp-the-scrum/

They seem to ask more questions than try and give answers but there's some valid points.

"The idea that Joe Launchbury is suddenly the panacea to all England’s front five and captaincy ills is also flush with wishful thinking. Launchbury remains a promising lock who should be in the mix, but he is no towering presence as a lineout or re-start operator, and until those areas are as impressive as his work in the loose sometimes is, he is not assured of a place."

Ah well. Nick Cain is a complete and utter dicktard, usually with no idea of what the selectors are planning

Brilliant use of an insult I've never heard before LT!

I agree it's a little bit of a sweeping article but he has a point on some things. The speed of our flankers and lack of breakdown the obvious ones.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brilliant use of an insult I've never heard before LT!

Lol Also known technically as a flaccid erection.

Ian Peel leaves England U20 role to take part-time role as England's scrum coach and also joins Saracens.

I know absolutely nothing about him, and the U20's are difficult to compare against full internationals.

I assume Eddie or his advisers see something impressive in him though.

And he'll know a heck of a lot about a lot of youngsters that Jones may want to select.

So that's

Head Coach/Manager/Attack Coach/Backs Coach - Eddie Jones
Forwards Coach - Steve Borthwick
Defense Coach - Paul Gustard
Scrum Coach - Ian Peel

4 coaches, 2 ex Saracens coaches, 1 ex Saracens captain and 1 soon to be Saracens coach.


What a time to be alive.

does that mean a sarries game plan?

Who knows, although we can assume it may be similar

Joy. The media and fans will be doing a full circle then.

-Moan about England's lack of ambition under Lancaster
-Moan about not winning and so we should go back to what we are good at (forward based game)
-Eddie comes in and plays a forwards based game, fans moan about the style and want an exciting brand of rugby...

It goes on

There will only be moaning about style when England start winning stuff. Thats a good thing, but i predict a long way off.

Jones challenge will be consistency in the face of so many options and finding a 10-12 axis he can stick with

Part of the joys of being an England fan Nathan, best get on board now while you can.

I'm pretty sure Brad Barritt is going to be the IC in the 6 Nations......

DaveM wrote:I'm pretty sure Brad Barritt is going to be the IC in the 6 Nations......

Noooooo !

I'm starting to feel we're going to be the Saracens of International teams, or Ireland for short.

Where's Beshockeds post naming an all EQ Sarries team? Who'd have thought that was actually a premonition... Perhaps he's Ian Peel?

DaveM wrote:I'm pretty sure Brad Barritt is going to be the IC in the 6 Nations......

Is that in doubt?

I'd be happy with us using Sarries defensive system. Let our quick wingers rush up rapidly and lead the defence, alongside Joseph/Daly at 13 it's system that our fast outside backs could utilise well.

Brown would also be excellent at working as the 'last man' in defence covering outside the winger when they rush up. He is great at covering probing kicks and fearless in the tackle so would carry out that role excellently.

I hope we look to move the ball wider, faster than Sarries do though. Given our attacking prospects are built around quick 13s and wingers who are strong on the outside break it would be foolish to move to a route 1 game plan.

LondonTiger wrote:

DaveM wrote:I'm pretty sure Brad Barritt is going to be the IC in the 6 Nations......

Is that in doubt?

In my opinion not since Gustard was named defence coach, no.

king_carlos wrote:I'd be happy with us using Sarries defensive system. Let our quick wingers rush up rapidly and lead the defence, alongside Joseph/Daly at 13 it's system that our fast outside backs could utilise well.

Brown would also be excellent at working as the 'last man' in defence covering outside the winger when they rush up. He is great at covering probing kicks and fearless in the tackle so would carry out that role excellently.

I hope we look to move the ball wider, faster than Sarries do though. Given our attacking prospects are built around quick 13s and wingers who are strong on the outside break it would be foolish to move to a route 1 game plan.

In that case you need players who can move it wide fast. Barritt can't do that, and so the only actual creativity in the back line will come from Farrell and, possibly, from whoever is playing 13 (assuming they get to see the ball). We can't have our cake and eat it here - if we get a lot of the Saracens defence we'll also get quite a lot of the Saracens attack (which is incisive, but probably not as ambitious as we'd like to see from England).

Jones has placed himself in charge of attack pretty much which is the thing I'm clinging to. He'll surely want some attacking emphasis from midfield which i'm more and more convinced Barritt hinders rather than offering balance for others to attack.

Yes, Barritt clearly hinders our attack. However, Jones has hired a defence coach who places a great deal of faith in him, and there actually aren't many other options:

- Hill: Not starting every game for Exeter, and probably about a year short of being ready for international rugby
- Burrell: Out of form.
- Eastmond: Playing in a backline which is struggling and has clear weaknesses as well as strengths.
- Slade: Injured
- Tuilagi: Injured
- Devoto: Not playing regularly enough.
- Stephenson: Not playing regularly enough and too inexperienced to be seriously considered at present.
- Farrell: By far the best FH in the country at the moment and so unlikely to be moved to 12.
- Williams: At least a year from being a serious contender as needs to gain experience.
- Mills: Has the skill-set and starts every game, but difficult to get selected whilst playing for Worcester at the moment and I have no idea how well he's actually playing.

I still think IC will be fine in a couple of years', as Slade, Hill, Devoto, Williams and Stephenson (and even Tuilagi and Sloan) all have considerable strengths and if they all stay fit and gain experience then it should become a very competitive position. Right now though I can't see past Barritt.

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I'd be happy with us using Sarries defensive system. Let our quick wingers rush up rapidly and lead the defence, alongside Joseph/Daly at 13 it's system that our fast outside backs could utilise well.

Brown would also be excellent at working as the 'last man' in defence covering outside the winger when they rush up. He is great at covering probing kicks and fearless in the tackle so would carry out that role excellently.

I hope we look to move the ball wider, faster than Sarries do though. Given our attacking prospects are built around quick 13s and wingers who are strong on the outside break it would be foolish to move to a route 1 game plan.

In that case you need players who can move it wide fast. Barritt can't do that, and so the only actual creativity in the back line will come from Farrell and, possibly, from whoever is playing 13 (assuming they get to see the ball). We can't have our cake and eat it here - if we get a lot of the Saracens defence we'll also get quite a lot of the Saracens attack (which is incisive, but probably not as ambitious as we'd like to see from England).

Hill has the hands to give and take a pass when under pressure from a tackler but still has the carrying to fix defenders.

In form, which he seems to be working back towards, Barritt has some basic distributions skills as well. Many players have been saved from criticism for their RWC performances due to being out of form, not fully fit and playing under a terrible game plan. I think it's fair enough to give Barritt the same scope.

My main fear with a Farrell and Barritt 10-12 is having to watch our attack function a fraction as well attacking left to right as it will right to left...

On form alone Ashton is likely to be the right wing, or Nowell. Both are very good st coming in looking for the ball and not hanging out waiting for a pass.

That might save us a bit.

Nowell will be on the left with Watson on the right I reckon Yappy.

Nowell is in even better form than Ashton and has been around the squad more recently. Watson hasn't impressed the same as Ashton or Nowell this season but has showed up well in internationals thus far and I just can't see Jones dropping a guy that talented unless he performs poorly enough to demand it.

poor Jones hasn't even picked his EPS yet, let alone his team, and already being criticised for playing a negative brand of rugby, and seeking to copy a template which is so dreadful it's seen a team not yet lose a match this season.

king_carlos wrote:Nowell will be on the left with Watson on the right I reckon Yappy.

Nowell is in even better form than Ashton and has been around the squad more recently. Watson hasn't impressed the same as Ashton or Nowell this season but has showed up well in internationals thus far and I just can't see Jones dropping a guy that talented unless he performs poorly enough to demand it.

So:

11. Nowell
14. Ashton/Rokoduguni
15. Watson

Mad for Chelsea wrote:poor Jones hasn't even picked his EPS yet, let alone his team, and already being criticised for playing a negative brand of rugby, and seeking to copy a template which is so dreadful it's seen a team not yet lose a match this season.

Isn't that how forum's work? Of course we could suspend discussion here until Jones names his matchday 23 for Scotland.........

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Nowell will be on the left with Watson on the right I reckon Yappy.

Nowell is in even better form than Ashton and has been around the squad more recently. Watson hasn't impressed the same as Ashton or Nowell this season but has showed up well in internationals thus far and I just can't see Jones dropping a guy that talented unless he performs poorly enough to demand it.

So:

11. Nowell
14. Ashton/Rokoduguni
15. Watson

Brown is a much better FB than Watson currently. We add much more to the side with him at 15 and Watson on the wing that we do by moving Watson to 15. It will likely be Watson's best position long term, in fact I think he could be a star there with a bit more room to run. At current Brown is our best 15, I hope Jones tries to give Watson game time there towards the end of games if he gets the chance though.

For the sake of argument, if we want to replace Brown for the 6 Nations (I can't see why personally) then Pennell is our next best FB anyway IMO.