Who is your team's most overrated player?

First topic message reminder :

Just for laughs as the NH licks their wounds, who do you believe is your team's most overrated player? For Wales it has to be Justin Tipuric. He's had a couple good games for Wales and has been living off the back of that. There's still ongoing calls for him to be thrust into the team yet against Australia he seemed to be anonymous - furthermore I don't think he really has a great impact coming off the bench yet I always seem to read comments like "Tipuric played really well." An open-sides primary role is to boss the breakdown, exactly what Warburton does. Popping up on the wing and being able to pass the ball (which everyone bar Jenkins can do) does not make you a good open-side.

A little harsh maybe but I'm pretty tired of the calls for Wales to sift out one of the worlds best open-side flankers so that Tipuric can start. Paul James is a close second. So there we have it. Who do you believe to be your team's most overrated player and why?

Lawes is def a lock. Remember that game he played 6? No thanks...Altho I do think he works well with Launchbury at 5.

Shifty wrote:Rhys Priestland, Dominic Day, James Hook, Aaron Jarvis - any of them lot.  

Does anyone rate those players?

Golden wrote:

Shifty wrote:Rhys Priestland, Dominic Day, James Hook, Aaron Jarvis - any of them lot.  

Does anyone rate those players?

Scarlets supporters' think Priestland is the best in Wales. Hook seems to have a large online following - each one of these followers is clearly delusional and clueless/have been watching rugby with eyes shut.

Re: Jamie Roberts, we should see what he's capable of once he joins Quins at the end of the year. We like to have a crash-ball centre, too, but we also allow them a bit of leeway to play what they see.

I do quite like George North as a player, but fundamentally it's up to the team around him to use him in the right way. When someone remembers to get him onto the ball at speed, he's worthy of his hype. When they don't, he looks ordinary, especially if there's no-one to cover when the ball goes behind him.

For England, it's hard to say. The team as a whole failed to cope with the situation in front of them. I'd probably go for Ben Youngs, mainly on the basis that he brought none of the things he was in the team to do (i.e. quick breaks and adding some spark to play) and his passing was pretty awful all tournament.

Most of the Glasgow players.

Actually no-one really rates our players, so it's hard to pick a player who is overrated. Finn Russell is still to really deliver on his rich promise, but most people from other nations haven't really heard of him.

Barritt is overrated by the current England coaching team but not by any England supporters I imagine.

Calling Roberts overrated seems a bit far fetched. He's employed to do a job and does it pretty well most of the time. If you want an inventive, ball playing and kicking option 12 then pick someone else. Just not how Wales play at the moment.

On current form I think North is very over rated, a North of 18 months ago would have taken his chances against Australia and South Africa.

Griff wrote:Toby Faletau. And I'm a Dragons fan too! People say he's great at cleaning up untidy ball when the scrum is going backwards. Yes he picks it up but he makes little ground. Most 8s can do that. Bend over, pick ball up, get tackled, place ball down, recycle. Not sure how that makes him outstanding. The rest of his game is average at best for me. He doesn't score many tries like other top international 8s, he's not much of a poacher, his tackle numbers are not up there with other top 8s, he's not that good as a link player anymore (used to be decent), he doesn't make huge ground either as he's a bit 'slight' in comparison to a lot of other international 8s.

Am I being overly harsh?!

I think you are Griff but we all entitled to our opinions. For me he is Mr Consistent all the time and his work rate is huge, I would like to see him carry more aggressively mind and he does need some competition for his place to maybe push him more. I would like to see Moriarty given a few runs at No8 as he's more your typical carrying type and then we would have different options horses for courses etc.

I always thought AWJ was quite overrated. The pundits and Welsh fans seem to gush over him but I never really got it. Sure he sings the anthem well but I have never ever got the hype. He's not a work horse enforcer like Paul O'Connell or as dynamic as Whitelock for example.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player, I just never thought he was that good.

Chateris is better player IMO and he doesn't get as much praise.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I always thought AWJ was quite overrated. The pundits and Welsh fans seem to gush over him but I never really got it. Sure he sings the anthem well but I have never ever got the hype.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player, I just never thought he was that good.

I agree

BamBam wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I always thought AWJ was quite overrated. The pundits and Welsh fans seem to gush over him but I never really got it. Sure he sings the anthem well but I have never ever got the hype.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player, I just never thought he was that good.

I agree

Likewise. I wouldn't take him ahead of England's alternatives (as in he isn't an improvement rather than that he's particularly inferior), even given how little love there is for Lawes on this thread.

Disagree on the comment above about Ben Youngs - was having a very good game against Wales until his injury and was doing exactly the things he was supposed to do in keeping the fringe defence honest. Don't think he was really fully recovered for the Aus game.,

Another for England that I think is over-rated is Anthony Watson - yes, he scored some nice tries and is a good attacking threat ball in hand, but I don't think has the same rugby nous as Nowell and does have a tendency to make quite a few errors (handling and in particular poor kicking). OK, he's still quite young and can work to improve his skills, but he is far from the finished product at present.

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I always thought AWJ was quite overrated. The pundits and Welsh fans seem to gush over him but I never really got it. Sure he sings the anthem well but I have never ever got the hype.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player, I just never thought he was that good.

I agree

Likewise. I wouldn't take him ahead of England's alternatives (as in he isn't an improvement rather than that he's particularly inferior), even given how little love there is for Lawes on this thread.

Disagree on the comment above about Ben Youngs - was having a very good game against Wales until his injury and was doing exactly the things he was supposed to do in keeping the fringe defence honest. Don't think he was really fully recovered for the Aus game.,

Another for England that I think is over-rated is Anthony Watson - yes, he scored some nice tries and is a good attacking threat ball in hand, but I don't think has the same rugby nous as Nowell and does have a tendency to make quite a few errors (handling and in particular poor kicking). OK, he's still quite young and can work to improve his skills, but he is far from the finished product at present.

The rugby experts are out today!!!

Golden wrote:

Shifty wrote:Rhys Priestland, Dominic Day, James Hook, Aaron Jarvis - any of them lot.  

Does anyone rate those players?

Warren Gatland clearly does he picks them for his squad.

ME-109 wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I always thought AWJ was quite overrated. The pundits and Welsh fans seem to gush over him but I never really got it. Sure he sings the anthem well but I have never ever got the hype.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player, I just never thought he was that good.

I agree

Likewise. I wouldn't take him ahead of England's alternatives (as in he isn't an improvement rather than that he's particularly inferior), even given how little love there is for Lawes on this thread.

Disagree on the comment above about Ben Youngs - was having a very good game against Wales until his injury and was doing exactly the things he was supposed to do in keeping the fringe defence honest. Don't think he was really fully recovered for the Aus game.,

Another for England that I think is over-rated is Anthony Watson - yes, he scored some nice tries and is a good attacking threat ball in hand, but I don't think has the same rugby nous as Nowell and does have a tendency to make quite a few errors (handling and in particular poor kicking). OK, he's still quite young and can work to improve his skills, but he is far from the finished product at present.

The rugby experts are out today!!!

So are the condescending posters by the looks of things.

AWJ is the only lock to be on a similar level as POC in the last 10 years.. And I'm Irish so I dont go around praising Welsh players for fun. I am just assuming there are a number who havent been watching him for Wales, The O's and The Lions...or dont know anything about second row play

I know AWJ has his critics but I thought he had a great World Cup, and I said to myself his critics might actually admit that he's a good player now. Boy was I wrong!

Anyway, most overrated players; Scotland - Gray brothers.

ME-109 wrote:AWJ is the only lock to be on a similar level as POC in the last 10 years.. And I'm Irish so I dont go around praising Welsh players for fun. I am just assuming there are a number who havent been watching him for Wales, The O's and The Lions...or dont know anything about second row play

Assume you mean British Isles players. AWJ has been an excellent player but is one or 2 steps below the best for me.

Owen Franks.

mikey_dragon wrote:I know AWJ has his critics but I thought he had a great World Cup, and I said to myself his critics might actually admit that he's a good player now. Boy was I wrong!

Anyway, most overrated players; Scotland - Gray brothers.

Wow! Dirty cheap shot!

Here's a wee excerpt from Rugby world regarding their game against South Africa:

Lood de Jager was supreme all game and Jonny Gray was typically industrious. Richie Gray was the games top tackler, with 21, and Eben Etzebeth was his usual self, being a nuisance at the breakdown. These are young men at the top of their games.

35 – the number of tackles the Gray brothers put in.

Read more at http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/south-africa-countries/world-cup-2015-south-africa-34-16-scotland-50127#3yPSf2JM3C9d4ylI.99

They have also been part of arguable one of the best Scrums in the tournament, gaining parity with SA and mullering the roundly hyped Oz scrum.

ME, comparing AWJ to POC is some claim. I personally cannot see it. POC is a talisman, I hate to use cliches but he runs a fantastic lineout. Shows up brilliantly in the loose, communicates well with the ref, carries like a bulldozer, tackles like flanker and is phenomenal at the breakdown.

Wales are my 2nd team and I tend to back them up against anyone but Scotland. However AWJ, although a very good player always strikes me as a tad overrated as this OP suggests.

What do you see in him to compare him to the likes of POC? For me Whitelock is the only one close to POC and what he brings in terms of excellence in that position.

Depends on your definition of overrated:

England's most overhyped player has to be Burgess. Not his fault, but all the fanfare around him (including from me) and he didn't deliver. Still has time, but it won't be at 12.

Based on the World Cup England's most disappointing player (at the World Cup) has to be Cole. I rate him very highly, but he didn't come close to the standards he has set for himself at the World Cup.

In terms of caps-to-ability ratio, I'd say Haskell is possibly the guy who has more caps than his ability warrants.

I'd also consider Henry Slade for this list. Not done anything wrong, but has barely done anything at all. A good 60 minutes against France in the warm-ups and a good showing against a bunch of part-timers and all of a sudden he's the answer to all our problems. He may make a good international player in that midfield, but he's definitely not going to help fix the problems we have in the pack!

2 of England's stand out for me. Ben Youngs - blows hot & very cold and Tom Wood. Wood was good, but just goes missing in big matches. He doesn't carry effectively, doesn't seem to win many turnovers, he only seems to be in for his lineout work. He's bigged himself up as a potential captain, but hasn't looked like he helps Robshaw out in matches.

AWJ is for Wales what POC is for Ireland - He leads us, he is our spiritual captain and in games v Ireland he has been at least on a par with POC. He lead the Lions by example as well and he remains integral to our success. I think people see the personality first and then make their judgements second. POC appears to be one of those fellas everyone likes unlike AWJ. However I maintain that he has shone for Wales and the Ospreys and achieved great success in sides which were far from great. He is our backbone much like POC has been for Ireland.

RubyGuby wrote:AWJ is for Wales what POC is for Ireland - He leads us, he is our spiritual captain and in games v Ireland he has been at least on a par with POC. He lead the Lions by example as well and he remains integral to our success. I think people see the personality first and then make their judgements second. POC appears to be one of those fellas everyone likes unlike AWJ. However I maintain that he has shone for Wales and the Ospreys and achieved great success in sides which were far from great. He is our backbone much like POC has been for Ireland.

It's not that I dislike him though.

The way I see it Gray and Gray for Scotland are a fantastic pairing. They have a lot to learn for example THAT line out on Sunday night, however there are only a handful locks in the world I would replace them with. Charteris being one, POC another Whitleock, Retallick, De Jager and Etzebeth being the others.

Big Charteris for me is one of the form locks in the world at the moment along with the SA duo and Whitelock.

I'm actually going to make a habit of watching him (AWJ) and exclusively him the next time Wales play. He perhaps does a lot of unseen work. Whereas the other locks I mentioned carry powerfully, disrupt line outs or tackle constantly and grab my attention.

I take your points Ruby and ME-109 I'm still unconvinced though but I will give you guys the benefit of the doubt.

Why do you think he remains the constant in our 2nd row with the likes of Charteris, Davies, Ball etc vying for a place alongside him. He does all the hard graft and takes the ball forward over the gain line. As an aside go and have a look who made the crucial pass in midfield at pace when we scored our try v England. In fact have a look at him in the last 20 v England - he was a mountain, confident and powerful in the face of adversity and the others follow this. Very underrated player for those who don't know him. The fact he was the Lions captain who lead them to a record victory is also not a bad thing to have on your CV. If any of the Greys consistently get near his level they would have achieved great things.

He's a player opposing fans like to dislike, unlike POC




Will Greenwood says he would have Alun Wyn Jones as the captain of his World XV, hailing the Wales second row as a rugby warrior.

Former England star Greenwood – now a respected TV pundit – is a huge admirer of the way Jones gives his all every single time he takes the field, be it for club or country.
He likens him to World Cup-winning skipper Martin Johnson as a figurehead and also to his long-time centre partner Mike Tindall in terms of attitude and commitment.

“Alun Wyn would be in my World XV and, more than that, he would be the captain of my World XV,” said Greenwood.

WATCH: How Wales can win the 2015 Six Nations title

“What a warrior he is. It’s just everything about him, the way he carries himself, the way he communicates.

“And it’s every single time he takes the field. Whether he’s having a tough day with the Ospreys in Europe, or winning against South Africa or losing at home to England, he always carries himself with huge dignity.

“You couldn’t ask for any more from a player. He can look himself in the mirror after every game and say I gave everything.”

I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

RubyGuby wrote:Why do you think he remains the constant in our 2nd row with the likes of Charteris, Davies, Ball etc vying for a place alongside him. He does all the hard graft and takes the ball forward over the gain line. As an aside go and have a look who made the crucial pass in midfield at pace when we scored our try v England. In fact have a look at him in the last 20 v England - he was a mountain, confident and powerful in the face of adversity and the others follow this. Very underrated player for those who don't know him. The fact he was the Lions captain who lead them to a record victory is also not a bad thing to have on your CV. If any of the Greys consistently get near his level they would have achieved great things.

He's a player opposing fans like to dislike, unlike POC

As I said though I don't dislike him.

Mike Phillips, I disliked him, mainly because he came across as something of a toss piece. Shane Williams was another, not because he was unpleasant. Far from it. Shane is a gentleman of the game. I disliked Shane because he seemed to score with impunity against Scotland!

Best Welsh player of all time: Scott Gibbs. We thank you for 1999!

God I still remember that hangover FES - Another great line out call from England I believe

funnyExiledScot wrote:Best Welsh player of all time: Scott Gibbs. We thank you for 1999!

Reigning 5 nations champs.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

Is Cuthbert rated though? I mean, to be overrated he first needs to be rated. Nobody rates him, as the past month or so on here will confirm. Gats picked him due to injuries.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

fES,

You won't get any arguments off me over that one and to be honest I think Cuthbert has taken the brunt of most fans frustration while Norths poor form has been ignored.

Griff wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

Is Cuthbert rated though? I mean, to be overrated he first needs to be rated. Nobody rates him, as the past month or so on here will confirm. Gats picked him due to injuries.

As poor as he was some of the sh*te he was getting and the stuff that was being written makes the current stuff Joubert is getting quite tame.

Did Cuthbert's form go downhill before or after he chucked that bloke's mobile down the road?

I don't know why people are comparing AWJ and POC, doesn't anyone realise we always used to pick Ianto Evans to bitch slap POC, and make him behave in games. AWJ never had any problems off him!

Every time I used to go to the Liberty and watch Munster get smashed, I used to enjoy watching Ianto have a pop at POC. Good times.

Cyril wrote:Did Cuthbert's form go downhill before or after he chucked that bloke's mobile down the road?

It was after he turned down a new Blues contract because he thought a big French side would come in for him, and then no-one did...

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

Is Cuthbert rated though? I mean, to be overrated he first needs to be rated. Nobody rates him, as the past month or so on here will confirm. Gats picked him due to injuries.

As poor as he was some of the sh*te he was getting and the stuff that was being written makes the current stuff Joubert is getting quite tame.

Where was that?! Didn't see anything too bad on here although I wasn't involved in any of the match threads during the actual match (propping up a bar each time ). I only saw some normal criticism and mild abuse (like 'couldn't catch a cold' or 'confused by the ball', etc). He did play pretty woefully so I think it comes with the territory to get some criticism.

Griff wrote:

Cyril wrote:Did Cuthbert's form go downhill before or after he chucked that bloke's mobile down the road?

It was after he turned down a new Blues contract because he thought a big French side would come in for him, and then no-one did...

Or is it teams have figured out his weaknesses and go for them incessantly during games. While Cuthbert might not be getting the necessary coaching at the Blues to help rectify them. Certainly he doesn't seem to of made any improvements in recent years, you can't fault him in attack, but in defence he's bloody awful.

Ben Youngs and Tom Wood. The former regularly lauded for 'sniping' when in reality it's mainly crabbing followed by a terrible, looping pass. The latter just a static, lightweight lump of deadwood. Neither are international class, both have better alternatives with caps who should have been in their place.

Shifty wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cyril wrote:Did Cuthbert's form go downhill before or after he chucked that bloke's mobile down the road?

It was after he turned down a new Blues contract because he thought a big French side would come in for him, and then no-one did...

Or is it teams have figured out his weaknesses and go for them incessantly during games.  While Cuthbert might not be getting the necessary coaching at the Blues to help rectify them.  Certainly he doesn't seem to of made any improvements in recent years,  you can't fault him in attack, but in defence he's bloody awful.

You CAN fault him in attack. How many times this tournament did the ball bounce of his chest or his face when it was passed to him on the wing. Good passes too. I don't blame him for the SA try. He came in because he thought he needed to make the tackle. It was all the other stuff.

Griff wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cyril wrote:Did Cuthbert's form go downhill before or after he chucked that bloke's mobile down the road?

It was after he turned down a new Blues contract because he thought a big French side would come in for him, and then no-one did...

Or is it teams have figured out his weaknesses and go for them incessantly during games.  While Cuthbert might not be getting the necessary coaching at the Blues to help rectify them.  Certainly he doesn't seem to of made any improvements in recent years,  you can't fault him in attack, but in defence he's bloody awful.

You CAN fault him in attack. How many times this tournament did the ball bounce of his chest or his face when it was passed to him on the wing. Good passes too. I don't blame him for the SA try. He came in because he thought he needed to make the tackle. It was all the other stuff.

Oh I totally agree, his confidence is shot to pieces and he looked like a guy that wanted the ground to swallow him up, sadly he was un-droppable because we basically had no one else to play!

Griff wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

Is Cuthbert rated though? I mean, to be overrated he first needs to be rated. Nobody rates him, as the past month or so on here will confirm. Gats picked him due to injuries.

As poor as he was some of the sh*te he was getting and the stuff that was being written makes the current stuff Joubert is getting quite tame.

Where was that?! Didn't see anything too bad on here although I wasn't involved in any of the match threads during the actual match (propping up a bar each time ). I only saw some normal criticism and mild abuse (like 'couldn't catch a cold' or 'confused by the ball', etc).  He did play pretty woefully so I think it comes with the territory to get some criticism.

There was some garbage going around on other media sites Griff, including a bit really having a pop at him by that legend of Welsh rugby that is Andy Powell hahahahaha

I don't think AWJ or George North are overrated at all. I hate playing against the both of them, because they are both a pain in the ass for different reasons. Both are very important players for Wales.

AWJ is actually close to POC in terms of his style of play, his leadership and that passion/aggression that drives the rest of the team. I actually think AWJ is integral to the Welsh pack and Warburton would struggle greatly without him. He lacks the same level of aggression. He is a complete workhorse and as I said before, he is an absolute pain in the ass to play against. His engine doesn't stop. He may not be dynamic but to be honest I would rather have the donkey work left in the pack and the dynamism further out field.

North has been a bit off form, but that isn't all that surprising, he has had a rather tough year in rugby. However when he is on form I genuinely believe he is one of the premier wingers in the world. Fantastically balanced in his running style, with power that is unmatched and possessing a very good skill set. He is almost unstoppable when he is given the space and it is up to Wales to properly utilise him.

Rory it's not all up to Wales now as Northampton have much more control over North and he is playing a lot of games in the Aviva which is not helping him IMO especially with the recent concussions. Others like Warburton look fresh in comparison due to game time management

bedfordwelsh wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

fES,

You won't get any arguments off me over that one and to be honest I think Cuthbert has taken the brunt of most fans frustration while Norths poor form has been ignored.

Bedford, you come across as someone who has a soft spot for Alex Cuthbert yet really has it in for George North . Alright so North's form went really bad since our last summer tour to SA but by the 6 Nations it had clearly improved and continued to do so up to this moment.

mikey_dragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

fES,

You won't get any arguments off me over that one and to be honest I think Cuthbert has taken the brunt of most fans frustration while Norths poor form has been ignored.

Bedford, you come across as someone who has a soft spot for Alex Cuthbert yet really has it in for George North . Alright so North's form went really bad since our last summer tour to SA but by the 6 Nations it had clearly improved and continued to do so up to this moment.

md,

I just hate the way individual players are singled out (Priestland bashers), if all were fit the Cuthbert wouldn't have been anywhere near my side and I would send him back top the Blues too try and get some form and confidence.

What annoys me the most was that even before the world cup people were hammering him for his defence yet Norths was just as bad but he seems untouchable in some peoples books, neither for me are in form at the moment and I didn't think North had a particularly good 6 Nations either.

I think we need something different to the big bashers on the wing, lets give Amos a good run or if he can stay fit Walker.

majesticimperialman wrote:For England. Sam Burgess. The most overated centre player England have ever selected.

Whoa, careful majestic - that particular field is full of worthy candidates, from Phil de Glanville onwards over the past 30 years.

Of the current crop, I'd go for Brad Barritt, the kind of centre Scotland at their lowest recent ebb would have been hard justified to put on their bench.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't pick on AWJ personally. If you're looking for overrated Welsh players then I think the wing duo of George North and Alex Cuthbert have probably been trading off big reputations for a while.

fES,

You won't get any arguments off me over that one and to be honest I think Cuthbert has taken the brunt of most fans frustration while Norths poor form has been ignored.

Bedford, you come across as someone who has a soft spot for Alex Cuthbert yet really has it in for George North . Alright so North's form went really bad since our last summer tour to SA but by the 6 Nations it had clearly improved and continued to do so up to this moment.

md,

I just hate the way individual players are singled out (Priestland bashers), if all were fit the Cuthbert wouldn't have been anywhere near my side and I would send him back top the Blues too try and get some form and confidence.

What annoys me the most was that even before the world cup people were hammering him for his defence yet Norths was just as bad but he seems untouchable in some peoples books, neither for me are in form at the moment and I didn't think North had a particularly good 6 Nations either.

I think we need something different to the big bashers on the wing, lets give Amos a good run or if he can stay fit Walker.

It's also a bit of a myth about the 'big bashers on the wing' IMO. Yes they're big, but they're not smash and grab merchants like Lomu or Tuilagi. North has the ability to carry a few players over the line, but if you look at a few of his highlight reels on Youtube then a high proportion of his tries have come from going around people, skinning them, beating the man one on one, etc. Like his try for the Lions v Aus. That was all about fleet of foot. The same can be said for Cuthbert. He was a 7s player. That's how he got in the spotlight. He was all about speed, lines and angles, scoring tries by cutting in and finding space. Again, see his highlights reel on youtube. His Try for the Lions is a good example, or the one in the Grand Slam win over France. Not a great deal of 'bosh'. Maybe that's where the flaw is in Gatland's plan - has he tried to turn them into battering rams because they're big, rather than use them as they were when they came to prominence? I think time out of the 7s circuit has hindered Cuthbert too - the longer he's been away from it the less he's able to utlise those skill she had, which makes sense logically.

So I'm not blaming Cuthbert for not scoring tries. It's the constant fumbles, weak chase of the high ball, poor positional defending, etc. that we saw this tournament. Yes North was not great either, but he isn't dropping easy passes either and is making some breaks. Cuthbert didn't make a break all tournament. For a 7s player that's bonkers!

We also have to blame the backs play in general for not creating the sort of space and time that these wingers need to score. Roberts is not much of a distributor, JD2 wasn't either - our 'drift attack' doesn't offer a lot for our wingers really. Which I guess is why he chooses big 'uns so that they might have a better chance of not being bundled into touch when the inevitable 'ball in no space' comes to them?!

As an Englishman, can I just point out to all the Cuthbert bashers that here was a player woefully out of sorts who made his national side only because of a raft of injuries to other backs. The many English players mentioned on this thread are there on merit, having for the most part fallen below the hype, and even their own previously higher standard, consistently as first choice players. Now that is something worth moaning about.

Simonofsurrey Not sure anyone can call Brad Barritt overrated when he gets frequently criticised.

Hood83 to be fair to both B.Youngs and Wood - B.Youngs I thought played well against Wales till his departure, yes he seemed like a headless chicken against the Aussies but that's B.Youngs - capable of playing well but also being a significant liability.

As for Wood - he's been a mainstay in the Lancaster side and I would say on the whole has been a positive asset but he had a poor RWC and with the rest of the backrow looked out of their depth bar Billy Vunipola.

Ruggerradge2611 I was watching the Scotland vs Australia and wondered why they didn't give the ball to the Gray brothers more, seemed to struggle more when they used Denton as the jumper.

As for most overrated England player - completely agree with Londontiger about Launchbury.

To be honest you could call most of the England team on the last performance overated!

But being objective, how can anyone call Joe Launchbury overrated?! He wasn't fit at the beginning of the world cup, that was obvious and I feel Lancaster didn't do him any favours. But fit and on form he's one of the first names on the team sheet. He carries, he tackles, he jackles, the tap tackles (see vs Ireland), he's added bulk for the scrum, he's good in the lineout (if not a caller).

What does he actually do badly or not do?!