PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

by Guest Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

Sure if we had facts then we wouldn't have these conspiracy theories. Where would be the fun in that?

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:37 pm

They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Ireland have NIQ rules which are getting even tighter

And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:42 pm

marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Ireland have NIQ rules which are getting even tighter

And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

Isn't Glasgow an independent club, and same for Treviso?

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

That only happens in Ireland, where rich benefactors top up the wages of players.

marty2086 wrote:And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

And rightly so, he should never be anywhere near an Ulster game.

marty2086 wrote:Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Why not ?

marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

Thats the problem.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:45 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Ireland have NIQ rules which are getting even tighter

And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

Isn't Glasgow an independent club, and same for Treviso?

I stand corrected, Edinburgh used to be stand-alone, not Glasgow, and Edinburgh folded. Sorry

by SecretFly Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:52 pm

An English ref would have a Welsh bias as they is both British. Wink

A French ref would have a Scottish bias as bonny Prince Charlie was in exile there Wink

Try again Lord.

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:57 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Ireland have NIQ rules which are getting even tighter

And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

Isn't Glasgow an independent club, and same for Treviso?

The Italian clubs are licensed out are they not?

I remember reading that Glasgow are part of the SRU last season

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

That only happens in Ireland, where rich benefactors top up the wages of players.

marty2086 wrote:And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

And rightly so, he should never be anywhere near an Ulster game.

marty2086 wrote:Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Why not ?

marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

Thats the problem.

Im sorry who pays 60% of the Welsh Dual contracts?
So conflicts go beyond paying the refs?
So reffing teams from the same country can't be seen as a conflict?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:04 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Ireland have NIQ rules which are getting even tighter

And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

Isn't Glasgow an independent club, and same for Treviso?

The Italian clubs are licensed out are they not?

I remember reading that Glasgow are part of the SRU last season

Glad I got my retraction post in earlier.

Yeah it was Edinburgh that were independent, and Glasgow talked about doing it back in the mid naughties, then Edinburgh got sold back to SRU, and Glasgow didn't go private.

The Italians are on licence, much like the regions are technically. So not owned by the union directly (although I believe Zebre are which is why only Treviso threatened to pull out the Pro12)

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And Salary caps won't work as players are paid outside of clubs which doesn't happen in England and France

That only happens in Ireland, where rich benefactors top up the wages of players.

marty2086 wrote:And if they were independent there'd still be cries of conflict, I've seen Neil Patterson get accused of bias even though he's employed by the SRU but Irish

And rightly so, he should never be anywhere near an Ulster game.

marty2086 wrote:Unless the Pro12 starts importing refs from France and England there'll always be conflict due to nationality

Why not ?

marty2086 wrote:They aren't in Scotland either but its not like the Scottish ever win the thing, hang on who won last season? Also Italy too

Thats the problem.

Im sorry who pays 60% of the Welsh Dual contracts?
So conflicts go beyond paying the refs?
So reffing teams from the same country can't be seen as a conflict?

That 60% would be Roger Lewis' mystery sponsors. It is all there online back when they announced the central contracts, and when the announced the dual contracts, on numerous websites, so feel free to search for it if you don't believe me.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:Im sorry who pays 60% of the Welsh Dual contracts?

That is paid so the players can be used by team Wales, in respect, they rent the players from the regions.

marty2086 wrote:So conflicts go beyond paying the refs?

What are you on about ? The conflict of interest comes from the both parties being part of the very same organisation. If we had referees from other organisations, the conflict of interests/potential bias would immediately disappear.

marty2086 wrote:So reffing teams from the same country can't be seen as a conflict?

Again, what are you on about ? Of course it can be seen as a conflict.

Yet again you are reverting to type and fabricating questions as answers, you are going around the houses again. It was you who has admitted to the fact that the Irish refs and the Irish provinces are all part of the same organisation, and now you are trying to worm your way out of it. picard

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:12 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
That 60% would be Roger Lewis' mystery sponsors. It is all there online back when they announced the central contracts, and when the announced the dual contracts, on numerous websites, so feel free to search for it if you don't believe me.

I wasn't aware there was someone sponsoring it, though they are essentially paying the WRUs end I presume?

I did try to do a search on it and found an interesting quote from the WRU

'Players to be offered a new National Dual Contract will be chosen by the national Head Coach and will become WRU employees'

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:Players to be offered a new National Dual Contract will be chosen by the national Head Coach and will become WRU employees'

Got a link to that ? Cheers.

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Players to be offered a new National Dual Contract will be chosen by the national Head Coach and will become WRU employees'

Got a link to that ? Cheers.

I knew you'd be asking

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/31045.php#.Vh5GOWddGM8

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:15 pm

Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:18 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

Its the official statement from the WRU regarding the Dual Contracts, I'm sure he had input into it but as its not been corrected it doesn't look like the regions or players disagreed

by SecretFly Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:19 pm

Sponsors? So rich benefactors in short.

We're back on track here.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:24 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

Yes I thought that. Why would the regions give away their prized assets ?

by Sin é Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote: Pro12 in favour of the Irish because the provinces are branches of the union and refs belong to the IRFU.

So you are now admitting it then ? The Irish refs, and the Irish provinces are all employed by the same organisation.

LD, seriously I am not going round in that circle again

The refs belong to the IRFU as per World Rugby, yes Peter Fitzgibbons works for them as a development officer, do they pay them to ref in the Pro12? Who the knows but you assume they do, I'll ask why would they and we'll avoid the hassle, deal?

You have admitted, that the Irish refs and the Irish provinces are employed by the same organisation, as I have quoted you above. You are now reverting back to type by backtracking and going around the houses about world rugby.

This seems to be the theme on here though, the Irish mafia on V2 get picked up on something and get called out, then they start accusing people of being tin hatted and paranoid conspiracy theorists.

If as you say, and I quote " the provinces are branches of the union and refs belong to the IRFU." Then there MUST be a conflict of interest in the Pro12.

I don't think Irish refs are employees of the IRFU as they are not paid by them to referee. They are self employed and paid by the league/tournament to officiate - for example - the 6Ns will pay its referees, the ERCC will pay for european officials and the PRO12 will pay for its officials.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:27 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

Its the official statement from the WRU regarding the Dual Contracts, I'm sure he had input into it but as its not been corrected it doesn't look like the regions or players disagreed

You do realise why Roger the dodger is leaving his post don't you ? It is because of all his lies and spin that he spouted out over the years, if you go back to the war between the regions and the WRU you will find that there were a lot of casualties within the WRU. I would take the WRU website with a pinch of salt, it is about as credible as the tabloids. The only difference is, the website is a direct mouth piece of that pleb who almost ruined Welsh rugby.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:29 pm

Sin é wrote:the PRO12 will pay for its officials.

I have seen evidence contrary to this posted on this very debate. I have seen links that show that the unions pay the referees.

by SecretFly Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:31 pm

The new Chairman hasn't insisted the WRU site now reflect the new reality, Lord?

What did this new Chairman come in to do? I thought he was outraged by the shenanigans going on and that's why he got involved to change it all?

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:31 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

Come to think of it, the only WRU employee that plays for the regions is Sam Warburton. Is this what is being alluded to ? As I know the regions were all staunchly against this way of paying for players.

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

Yes I thought that. Why would the regions give away their prized assets ?

Did you even read the link?

You already knew they did that, to keep them both parties gave something up. The WRU/sponsor will pay 60% while the WRU gets a greater level of control over availability while the players will be free to play a certain number of games/minutes for the regions

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:the PRO12 will pay for its officials.

I have seen evidence contrary to this posted on this very debate. I have seen links that show that the unions pay the referees.

They pay them for refereeing in the AIL etc

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, that reads very much like a Roger Lewis quote, and there are time his quotes are not quite accurate

Come to think of it, the only WRU employee that plays for the regions is Sam Warburton. Is this what is being alluded to ? As I know the regions were all staunchly against this way of paying for players.

The irony

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:What did this new Chairman come in to do? I thought he was outraged by the shenanigans going on and that's why he got involved to change it all?

Yep, that is the impression I have as well. That is why I will not trust a single thing written by Roger Lewis especially an article that has his picture on it and portrays him as the "saviour".

by Guest Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:42 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, your not interested in his comment regarding Australian involvement in the process or neutrality then?

Here it is from the previously linked article

The citing commissioner involved in the case is Australian and one journalist asked Hines whether he was concerned at that given Scotland face Australia at the weekend.

"He is neutral isn't he?" he said. "He's very professional. He's there to do a job and he thinks he's seen something.

"World Rugby put him there because they are happy with his neutrality."

Seeing as when people say things like that on here they get hounded and labelled trolls etc, Hines should be given the same treatment surely. Or does it have more credibility being said by someone in an official capacity then it does when said by now public?

Hines seems to be saying that he is neutral, professional, doing a job and chosen because WR are happy that's he's a fair judge.

What do you read? Shocked

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What did this new Chairman come in to do? I thought he was outraged by the shenanigans going on and that's why he got involved to change it all?

Yep, that is the impression I have as well. That is why I will not trust a single thing written by Roger Lewis especially an article that has his picture on it and portrays him as the "saviour".

So your saying the WRU press releases are written by Roger Lewis?

Forget the fact the WRU actually pay them

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:46 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What did this new Chairman come in to do? I thought he was outraged by the shenanigans going on and that's why he got involved to change it all?

Yep, that is the impression I have as well. That is why I will not trust a single thing written by Roger Lewis especially an article that has his picture on it and portrays him as the "saviour".

So your saying the WRU press releases are written by Roger Lewis?

Forget the fact the WRU actually pay them

No. They write what he is saying. Which is usually spoken with a forked tongue.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:Sponsors? So rich benefactors in short.

We're back on track here.

Yep a rich benefactor, so no different from the rich benefactors that are paying their wages via the regions.

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What did this new Chairman come in to do? I thought he was outraged by the shenanigans going on and that's why he got involved to change it all?

Yep, that is the impression I have as well. That is why I will not trust a single thing written by Roger Lewis especially an article that has his picture on it and portrays him as the "saviour".

So your saying the WRU press releases are written by Roger Lewis?

Forget the fact the WRU actually pay them

No. They write what he is saying. Which is usually spoken with a forked tongue.

So them getting paid by the WRU? Having contracts with them? Means nothing?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:53 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, your not interested in his comment regarding Australian involvement in the process or neutrality then?

Here it is from the previously linked article

The citing commissioner involved in the case is Australian and one journalist asked Hines whether he was concerned at that given Scotland face Australia at the weekend.

"He is neutral isn't he?" he said. "He's very professional. He's there to do a job and he thinks he's seen something.

"World Rugby put him there because they are happy with his neutrality."

Seeing as when people say things like that on here they get hounded and labelled trolls etc, Hines should be given the same treatment surely. Or does it have more credibility being said by someone in an official capacity then it does when said by now public?

Hines seems to be saying that he is neutral, professional, doing a job and chosen because WR are happy that's he's a fair judge.

What do you read?

I read it pretty much the opposite. I read it in a way that he is saying "The IRB have said he is neutral, therefore he must be, right??? There would be no reason for him to have ulterior motives, right??? He is a professional, and would not make any calls that could favour his national side, right????" I pretty much read it as I expect the majority of you lot would have if it were posted on here by a welsh fan, regarding an Irish citing commissioner.

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:56 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, your not interested in his comment regarding Australian involvement in the process or neutrality then?

Here it is from the previously linked article

The citing commissioner involved in the case is Australian and one journalist asked Hines whether he was concerned at that given Scotland face Australia at the weekend.

"He is neutral isn't he?" he said. "He's very professional. He's there to do a job and he thinks he's seen something.

"World Rugby put him there because they are happy with his neutrality."

Seeing as when people say things like that on here they get hounded and labelled trolls etc, Hines should be given the same treatment surely. Or does it have more credibility being said by someone in an official capacity then it does when said by now public?

Hines seems to be saying that he is neutral, professional, doing a job and chosen because WR are happy that's he's a fair judge.

What do you read?

I read it pretty much the opposite. I read it in a way that he is saying "The IRB have said he is neutral, therefore he must be, right??? There would be no reason for him to have ulterior motives, right??? He is a professional, and would not make any calls that could favour his national side, right????" I pretty much read it as I expect the majority of you lot would have if it were posted on here by a welsh fan, regarding an Irish citing commissioner.

He probably is saying that but then you have to ask why would he? Its only Scotland Laugh

by Sin é Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:the PRO12 will pay for its officials.

I have seen evidence contrary to this posted on this very debate. I have seen links that show that the unions pay the referees.

Have you a link?

It just would not be fair if the individual unions paid the refs bearing in mind that different unions supply different numbers of refs (i.e., Scotland & Italy would have fewer refs than Ireland and Wales).

If Scotland and Italy supplied more refs (& match day officials) then the Pro12 would be able to supply a non-aligned ref to all games.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:So them getting paid by the WRU? Having contracts with them? Means nothing?

Marty, as I have explained earlier, the WRU pay for the release of players, the same as other unions do in any other country, they pay this by paying 60% of the players wages. These players are people who have been developed by the regions, the regions would have invested a lot of money into these players for the benefit of the regions, so why they would give these players up to the WRU does it not make sence, that is why I think that Roger Lewis is lying, again, it would not be the first time he has lied and got caught out would it.

by LordDowlais Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:the PRO12 will pay for its officials.

I have seen evidence contrary to this posted on this very debate. I have seen links that show that the unions pay the referees.

Have you a link?

It just would not be fair if the individual unions paid the refs bearing in mind that different unions supply different numbers of refs (i.e., Scotland & Italy would have fewer refs than Ireland and Wales).

If Scotland and Italy supplied more refs (& match day officials) then the Pro12 would be able to supply a non-aligned ref to all games.

Trawl through this thread, and find one of the numerous links Chunky and Phill have provided. Laugh

by Guest Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:59 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Marty, your not interested in his comment regarding Australian involvement in the process or neutrality then?

Here it is from the previously linked article

The citing commissioner involved in the case is Australian and one journalist asked Hines whether he was concerned at that given Scotland face Australia at the weekend.

"He is neutral isn't he?" he said. "He's very professional. He's there to do a job and he thinks he's seen something.

"World Rugby put him there because they are happy with his neutrality."

Seeing as when people say things like that on here they get hounded and labelled trolls etc, Hines should be given the same treatment surely. Or does it have more credibility being said by someone in an official capacity then it does when said by now public?

Hines seems to be saying that he is neutral, professional, doing a job and chosen because WR are happy that's he's a fair judge.

What do you read?

I read it pretty much the opposite. I read it in a way that he is saying "The IRB have said he is neutral, therefore he must be, right??? There would be no reason for him to have ulterior motives, right??? He is a professional, and would not make any calls that could favour his national side, right????" I pretty much read it as I expect the majority of you lot would have if it were posted on here by a welsh fan, regarding an Irish citing commissioner.

Hmmmm... The headline yesterday was something like 'Scotland Pour Cold Water on Claim of Bias', using Hines quotes. Think that's the why it should be read.

But I'm an arrogant gimp, so don't take my word for it Very Happy

by Sin é Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So them getting paid by the WRU? Having contracts with them? Means nothing?

Marty, as I have explained earlier, the WRU pay for the release of players, the same as other unions do in any other country, they pay this by paying 60% of the players wages. These players are people who have been developed by the regions, the regions would have invested a lot of money into these players for the benefit of the regions, so why they would give these players up to the WRU does it not make sence, that is why I think that Roger Lewis is lying, again, it would not be the first time he has lied and got caught out would it.

The amateur clubs are the WRU. They are the ones that get the kids playing in the first place. And do the WRU not have a national academy for players?

By the way, by your way of thinking, the regions are quite happy to develop players to go play in France for free!

by Sin é Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:the PRO12 will pay for its officials.

I have seen evidence contrary to this posted on this very debate. I have seen links that show that the unions pay the referees.

Have you a link?

It just would not be fair if the individual unions paid the refs bearing in mind that different unions supply different numbers of refs (i.e., Scotland & Italy would have fewer refs than Ireland and Wales).

If Scotland and Italy supplied more refs (& match day officials) then the Pro12 would be able to supply a non-aligned ref to all games.

Trawl through this thread, and find one of the numerous links Chunky and Phill have provided.

Ah, I see. Chunky's & Phil fiction becomes fact! In other words, it doesn't happen.

The tournament/league appoints referees, not the Unions.

by Guest Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm

Where is Chunky anyway?

by marty2086 Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So them getting paid by the WRU? Having contracts with them? Means nothing?

Marty, as I have explained earlier, the WRU pay for the release of players, the same as other unions do in any other country, they pay this by paying 60% of the players wages. These players are people who have been developed by the regions, the regions would have invested a lot of money into these players for the benefit of the regions, so why they would give these players up to the WRU does it not make sence, that is why I think that Roger Lewis is lying, again, it would not be the first time he has lied and got caught out would it.

Money!

The regions were losing their best players, to compete at the top table they needed the WRUs money to keep them it makes perfect sense. Why would the WRU pay more than they have to, to get them released?

Its the same reason the Regions let their players play in the 4th AI last year

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