PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

Welcome Martin Anayi, you are going to have your hands full.

Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17587.php#kJPQdWr0F2UKZ8DF.99

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:.. and it looks like John Feehan negotiated the broadcasting deal in Wales (according to this anyway):

BBC Wales and S4C announce four-year Pro12 Rugby rights deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2014/pro12-rugby-rights-deal

Where does it say that?

Meanwhile, we have this to put up with from our (thankfully booted out) Chief Executive: http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1214

He said that in November 2012. This deal was signed 30 July, 2014. - 2 years after he had spoken about a deal he had made a couple of years earlier!

Read it. Note its a photo of John Feehan with the BBC exec. No sign of Roger Lewis!

oh, and from your link:

“RL went on to say that the latest RRW statement (regarding, amongst others, the TV revenues) was, at a minimum, misleading. and contained confidential information which should not have been disclosed. He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to.”

Oh, we know what the narcissist claimed and its accuracy. Did you spot the contradiction / lie? And did you find the wording that said Feehan did the deal? You didn't point it out to me. And are you forgetting who are the Board members of Celtic Rugby Ltd?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953 WRU spokesman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25394813 that may help your previous question.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:.. and it looks like John Feehan negotiated the broadcasting deal in Wales (according to this anyway):

BBC Wales and S4C announce four-year Pro12 Rugby rights deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2014/pro12-rugby-rights-deal

Where does it say that?

Meanwhile, we have this to put up with from our (thankfully booted out) Chief Executive: http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1214

He said that in November 2012. This deal was signed 30 July, 2014. - 2 years after he had spoken about a deal he had made a couple of years earlier!

Read it. Note its a photo of John Feehan with the BBC exec. No sign of Roger Lewis!

oh, and from your link:

“RL went on to say that the latest RRW statement (regarding, amongst others, the TV revenues) was, at a minimum, misleading. and contained confidential information which should not have been disclosed. He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to.”

Oh, we know what the narcissist claimed and its accuracy. Did you spot the contradiction / lie? And did you find the wording that said Feehan did the deal? You didn't point it out to me. And are you forgetting who are the Board members of Celtic Rugby Ltd?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953 WRU spokesman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25394813 that may help your previous question.

So what you don't like about the Pro12 is John Feehans fault and what you do like he gets no credit for?

PhilBB wrote:

You'll also note that BT Sport broadcast the other competition those teams play in.

What competition would that be?


Oh the European thing!

Right................ I must have just missed seeing those teams over the years

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

If the income of Celtic Rugby is 10m, it won't have to pay any tax (12.5% in Ireland) which means Celtic Rugby has got more cash to disperse and how Welsh rugby benefits.

I'm of the opinion that if we all held on to our own locally generated TV deals then Welsh rugby would benefit from having more cash.

You would, but not by a huge amount. I worked it out to be approximately £250k - £300k per Region. Not to be sniffed at I suppose, but not a huge amount. I would be happy enough if the Regions kept their own broadcasting monies. It might stop some of you whining so much, but I doubt it. The problem then for the Regions is if/when SKY/A N Other broadcasters raise their fees significantly the Regions will miss out as the other PRO12 clubs cash in on their loss.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Ah, I see this what you think? So can you explain why BT Sport is the jersey sponsor for every British teams that plays in the Pro12

I wrote that because of the context of the tournament in which he was out manoeuvred.

BT Sport sponsored PRW and the SRU as a thank you for their support in the setting up of EPRC, thus smashing the Irish mono'poly on the tournament. You know, the one Feehan was out manoeuvred on.

You'll also note that BT Sport broadcast the other competition those teams play in.

Were you genuinely unaware of that? Are you genuinely unaware of the BT Sport sponsorship shambles with the WRU?

Feehan had nothing to do with the ERC. You are mistaking him for Derek McGrath perhaps, who was CEO of ERC Rugby?

You mean BT Sport succeeded in bribing the SRU The Scots did well out of that (with no suffering, unlike the Welsh Regions and WRU)!

marty2086 wrote:

So what you don't like about the Pro12 is John Feehans fault and what you do like he gets no credit for?

What an odd summary. My original point was that, under his leadership, the League has fallen behind others. That sparked a tremendous line of 'it's everybody else's fault but us generous Irish' replies.

Sin é wrote:

Feehan had nothing to do with the ERC. You are mistaking him for Derek McGrath perhaps, who was CEO of ERC Rugby?

You mean BT Sport succeeded in bribing the SRU    The Scots did well out of that (with no suffering, unlike the Welsh Regions and WRU)!

So you're claiming that the chap heading up the Pr'O12 had no influence over the ERC? Rightio.

Sponsorship is now bribing? Oh wow. What a very skewed view you have.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:.. and it looks like John Feehan negotiated the broadcasting deal in Wales (according to this anyway):

BBC Wales and S4C announce four-year Pro12 Rugby rights deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2014/pro12-rugby-rights-deal

Where does it say that?

Meanwhile, we have this to put up with from our (thankfully booted out) Chief Executive: http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1214

He said that in November 2012. This deal was signed 30 July, 2014. - 2 years after he had spoken about a deal he had made a couple of years earlier!

Read it. Note its a photo of John Feehan with the BBC exec. No sign of Roger Lewis!

oh, and from your link:

“RL went on to say that the latest RRW statement (regarding, amongst others, the TV revenues) was, at a minimum, misleading. and contained confidential information which should not have been disclosed. He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to.”

Oh, we know what the narcissist claimed and its accuracy. Did you spot the contradiction / lie? And did you find the wording that said Feehan did the deal? You didn't point it out to me. And are you forgetting who are the Board members of Celtic Rugby Ltd?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953 WRU spokesman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25394813 that may help your previous question.

According to the rep from BBC: “We’ve struck a terrific deal with Celtic Rugby that ensures every fan in Wales has the very best view of the action.”. Also, the photo is of Feehan and the two reps from BBC.

I know exactly who the Board members of Celtic Rugby are. Whats your point?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feehan had nothing to do with the ERC. You are mistaking him for Derek McGrath perhaps, who was CEO of ERC Rugby?

You mean BT Sport succeeded in bribing the SRU    The Scots did well out of that (with no suffering, unlike the Welsh Regions and WRU)!

So you're claiming that the chap heading up the Pr'O12 had no influence over the ERC? Rightio.

Sponsorship is now bribing? Oh wow. What a very skewed view you have.

Why would he? He wasn't a director and were in separate offices (Feehan's companies are in the RDS), ERC was in St. Stephen's Green.

Yes, it was bribery. They even tried to bribe all the Irish Provinces with a similar deal even though they have very limited business interests in ROI.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So what you don't like about the Pro12 is John Feehans fault and what you do like he gets no credit for?

What an odd summary. My original point was that, under his leadership, the League has fallen behind others. That sparked a tremendous line of 'it's everybody else's fault but us generous Irish' replies.

As I've pointed out to you before, getting anyone to broadcast the PRO12 was a miracle after the damage the Welsh Regions have done to it.

Where has Chunky gone?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So what you don't like about the Pro12 is John Feehans fault and what you do like he gets no credit for?

What an odd summary. My original point was that, under his leadership, the League has fallen behind others. That sparked a tremendous line of 'it's everybody else's fault but us generous Irish' replies.

No one has said anything of the like, its been pointed out that its been Irish companies/brands/markets that have sustained the Pro12, you state that the league has fallen behind which would indicate it was on par or ahead of its competitors were as it has always been behind

Sin é wrote:

According to the rep from BBC:   “We’ve struck a terrific deal with Celtic Rugby that ensures every fan in Wales has the very best view of the action.”.  Also, the photo is of Feehan and the two reps from BBC.

I know exactly who the Board members of Celtic Rugby are. Whats your point?

That the deal was struck between two guys who are best of friends: Lewis and Davies.

Sin é wrote:

Why would he? He wasn't a director and were in separate offices (Feehan's companies are in the RDS), ERC was in St. Stephen's Green.

Yes, it was bribery. They even tried to bribe all the Irish Provinces with a similar deal even though they have very limited business interests in ROI.

Why would he? Excellent question. He shouldn't have been, but isn't it pretty well known he was involved 'behind the scenes' because of his position of influence, in trying to support the Vet?

Do you have a link for that BT alleged bribe? Thanks in advance.

Sin é wrote:

As I've pointed out to you before, getting anyone to broadcast the PRO12 was a miracle after the damage the Welsh Regions have done to it.

Two things: a) it was easy to get somebody to broadcast it in Wales b) what damage have Pro Rugby Wales done to the Pr'O12?

marty2086 wrote:

No one has said anything of the like, its been pointed out that its been Irish companies/brands/markets that have sustained the Pro12, you state that the league has fallen behind which would indicate it was on par or ahead of its competitors were as it has always been behind

It hasn't been pointed out that Irish companies/brands/markets have sustained the Pr'O12 at all. It was pointed out that an Irish based bank and a London based drinks company SPONSORED the league - but there has been no mention of 'sustained' because no figures were mentioned. You don't know if the Diageo deal is £100k a year or £1m a year, so you cannot say it has sustained anything.

If you think that the league has always been behind then let's point out that the gap has grown significantly wider. That is undeniable.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No one has said anything of the like, its been pointed out that its been Irish companies/brands/markets that have sustained the Pro12, you state that the league has fallen behind which would indicate it was on par or ahead of its competitors were as it has always been behind

It hasn't been pointed out that Irish companies/brands/markets have sustained the Pr'O12 at all. It was pointed out that an Irish based bank and a London based drinks company SPONSORED the league - but there has been no mention of 'sustained' because no figures were mentioned. You don't know if the Diageo deal is £100k a year or £1m a year, so you cannot say it has sustained anything.

If you think that the league has always been behind then let's point out that the gap has grown significantly wider. That is undeniable.

Guinness that well known London brand

Your critical of a tv deal that was negotiated all while the Welsh regions were in talks about breaking away, Im sure it was an easy sell to Sky and the other broadcasters. The fact that the Pro12 keeps games on free to air tv will mean there is less tv revenue compared to the AP and Top14 but it has benefits in other areas

Oh well, here we go again, Phil, don't you know ? It is the fault of the Welsh that the league is falling behind. It has nothing to do with the fact that the Irish have treated our league as a development tool since it's inception, and they have rolled out the red carpet for the scraps that the English and French have thrown us by putting all their star players in the Franglo cup.

marty2086 wrote:

Guinness that well known London brand

Your critical of a tv deal that was negotiated all while the Welsh regions were in talks about breaking away, Im sure it was an easy sell to Sky and the other broadcasters. The fact that the Pro12 keeps games on free to air tv will mean there is less tv revenue compared to the AP and Top14 but it has benefits in other areas

When you negotiate such a deal, you do it in good faith that the deal will go through. You put a clause in which notes what will happen to the deal if the teams you are wishing to broadcast no longer enter. It's not difficult to do.

We have two options here: either Feehan and co did the best they could (meaning the domestic markets of Scotland and Ireland are relatively worthless) or he failed. If you think he did NOT fail, then you are claiming that the Pr'O12 isn't a set up attractive to broadcasters.

Up to you to state and believe that.

As for this 'sustaining' claim you made - any figures yet?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

According to the rep from BBC:   “We’ve struck a terrific deal with Celtic Rugby that ensures every fan in Wales has the very best view of the action.”.  Also, the photo is of Feehan and the two reps from BBC.

I know exactly who the Board members of Celtic Rugby are. Whats your point?

That the deal was struck between two guys who are best of friends: Lewis and Davies.

Is that the 'witch' Lewis doing good for Welsh Rugby. Never.

It would be crazy not to use a network of contacts - not everyone likes to bite off their nose to spite their face like the Welsh Regions do. I wonder what will happen with that broadcasting fee now that you have succeeded in running your best contact with BBC Wales out of Welsh rugby

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Why would he? He wasn't a director and were in separate offices (Feehan's companies are in the RDS), ERC was in St. Stephen's Green.

Yes, it was bribery. They even tried to bribe all the Irish Provinces with a similar deal even though they have very limited business interests in ROI.

Why would he? Excellent question. He shouldn't have been, but isn't it pretty well known he was involved 'behind the scenes' because of his position of influence, in trying to support the Vet?

Do you have a link for that BT alleged bribe? Thanks in advance.

I'm not bothered about looking for it now, but one of the Irish newspapers published it.

Sin é wrote:It would be crazy not to use a network of contacts - not everyone likes to bite off their nose to spite their face like the Welsh Regions do. I wonder what will happen with that broadcasting fee now that you have succeeded in running your best contact with BBC Wales out of Welsh rugby Rolling Eyes

Don't worry, there will always be a market in Wales for rugby.

Well it would help if some of the Regions fans stopped undermining the Regions. There are enough Welsh club fans doing that without the need for added help.

Sin é wrote:
Is that the 'witch' Lewis doing good for Welsh Rugby. Never.

It would be crazy not to use a network of contacts - not everyone likes to bite off their nose to spite their face like the Welsh Regions do. I wonder what will happen with that broadcasting fee now that you have succeeded in running your best contact with BBC Wales out of Welsh rugby

How can losing 30% of the money be 'good for Welsh Rugby'? Please explain.

Also, how have Pro Rugby Wales bitten off their nose to spite their face? Please explain.

I'd hope that it will be the last fee negotiated for Pro Rugby Wales teams with BBC Wales.

Sin é wrote:

I'm not bothered about looking for it now, but one of the Irish newspapers published it.

Must be true then.

When you can be bothered to look for it, I'd be obliged.

Munchkin wrote:Well it would help if some of the Regions fans stopped undermining the Regions. There are enough Welsh club fans doing that without the need for added help.

That's a good statement. Any chance of what you see as manifesting itself as 'undermining'? And also explain how their actions affected the pitiful €900,000 from TG4.

I'm not seeing the link, you see

Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Guinness that well known London brand

Your critical of a tv deal that was negotiated all while the Welsh regions were in talks about breaking away, Im sure it was an easy sell to Sky and the other broadcasters. The fact that the Pro12 keeps games on free to air tv will mean there is less tv revenue compared to the AP and Top14 but it has benefits in other areas

When you negotiate such a deal, you do it in good faith that the deal will go through. You put a clause in which notes what will happen to the deal if the teams you are wishing to broadcast no longer enter. It's not difficult to do.

We have two options here: either Feehan and co did the best they could (meaning the domestic markets of Scotland and Ireland are relatively worthless) or he failed. If you think he did NOT fail, then you are claiming that the Pr'O12 isn't a set up attractive to broadcasters.

Up to you to state and believe that.

As for this 'sustaining' claim you made - any figures yet?

Its all well and good putting in clauses but if the Welsh walked away broadcasters are left having to fill their schedules

I claimed it helped sustain the competition, you know how many companies wanted to step in when Rabo (an Irish based bank with no foothold in the other areas) pulled out? Two with the other being Turkish Airlines though that was probably just the Irish helping each other out and taking less money for the league

Do you have the figures paid by Irish broadcasters for the tv rights?

And there are more than two options but the complexities of the whole thing seem beyond you

Munchkin wrote:Well it would help if some of the Regions fans stopped undermining the Regions. There are enough Welsh club fans doing that without the added help.

Ok, we know, there is a problem in Welsh rugby with parochialism, but that does not mean that Wales is the only reason why our league is not where it should be. Every country/union has looked after their own interests to the detriment of the Celtic league/Pro12/Magners League from the start. Perhaps the reason Ireland cannot get a decent pay day from the TV companies is because they never play their centrally contracted players in the league, and nobody in Ireland wants to tune in and watch a second side padded out with a few foreigners. Perhaps this is why we have struggled to get sponsors from outside of Ireland, because only the Irish companies recognise the players the provinces are putting out.

Wales are not the virus of Celtic rugby that some of the Irish members on this site try to have us believe, all our unions are partly guilty of holding our league back.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I'm not bothered about looking for it now, but one of the Irish newspapers published it.

Must be true then.

When you can be bothered to look for it, I'd be obliged.

BT did want to sponsor the 4 Provinces at the time. I can understand how some may see that as an attempt at bribery.

marty2086 wrote:

Its all well and good putting in clauses but if the Welsh walked away broadcasters are left having to fill their schedules

I claimed it helped sustain the competition, you know how many companies wanted to step in when Rabo (an Irish based bank with no foothold in the other areas) pulled out? Two with the other being Turkish Airlines though that was probably just the Irish helping each other out and taking less money for the league

Do you have the figures paid by Irish broadcasters for the tv rights?

And there are more than two options but the complexities of the whole thing seem beyond you

You did claim it helped sustain the competition but you didn't quantify how it did that.

I've already presented the figures from the sole Irish broadcaster and provided links to prove those.

Nice little attempted insult there, Champ. Now, if he maximised the TV rights then you're telling me that is the value of the Pr'O12. Agreed?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Guinness that well known London brand

Your critical of a tv deal that was negotiated all while the Welsh regions were in talks about breaking away, Im sure it was an easy sell to Sky and the other broadcasters. The fact that the Pro12 keeps games on free to air tv will mean there is less tv revenue compared to the AP and Top14 but it has benefits in other areas

When you negotiate such a deal, you do it in good faith that the deal will go through. You put a clause in which notes what will happen to the deal if the teams you are wishing to broadcast no longer enter. It's not difficult to do.

Well you see, the problem for Irish based broadcasters is that ROI residents get UK stations so it makes it less attractive. Then Sky take the best of the rest (because they prefer not to broadcast from morgues in Scotland & Wales).

We have two options here: either Feehan and co did the best they could (meaning the domestic markets of Scotland and Ireland are relatively worthless) or he failed. If you think he did NOT fail, then you are claiming that the Pr'O12 isn't a set up attractive to broadcasters.
Up to you to state and believe that.

As for this 'sustaining' claim you made - any figures yet?

You won't get too many broadcasters interested in broadcasting a league if you don't have a good sponsor (who will spend money on buying advertising from them).

As for figures - Not having to pay 18% tax (applicable in the UK) on the 10m media share = 1.8m for starters.

Munchkin wrote:
BT did want to sponsor the 4 Provinces at the time. I can understand how some may see that as an attempt at bribery.

How? The Provinces have no say. They just do as their owners dictate.

And BT Sport is on the Ulster jersey.

Sin é wrote:
Well you see, the problem for Irish based broadcasters is that ROI residents get UK stations so it makes it less attractive. Then Sky take the best of the rest (because they prefer not to broadcast from morgues in Scotland & Wales).

You won't get too many broadcasters interested in broadcasting a league if you don't have a good sponsor (who will spend money on buying advertising from them).

As for figures - Not having to pay 18% tax (applicable in the UK) on the 10m media share = 1.8m for starters.

Morgues? Right. So Sky don't broadcast games from Wales and Scotland? That's news to me. Can you elaborate on that as it seems that you are wholly wrong there.

Aren't you confusing VAT with tax? I mean, I'm not UK / Republic of Ireland tax expert but I know that my business in the UK cannot reclaim VAT on invoices raised in Ireland, meaning that they automatically cost me 20% more.

As for the idea that broadcasters won't get involved in a competition without a headline sponsor then I do find that claim funny when you consider EPRC and the Champions League.

All in all, when you read that, it seems that the points you raised were complete fabrications.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Well it would help if some of the Regions fans stopped undermining the Regions. There are enough Welsh club fans doing that without the need for added help.

That's a good statement. Any chance of what you see as manifesting itself as 'undermining'? And also explain how their actions affected the pitiful €900,000 from TG4.

I'm not seeing the link, you see

Thanks.

I'm sure if you try hard enough you will see a link, even if imaginary. You're very good at imaginary.

Muppets like you undermine your own Regions by constantly bitching about the PRO12. That's when you're not bitching about the WRU, the Welsh clubs and with each other....

Munchkin wrote:

I'm sure if you try hard enough you will see a link, even if imaginary. You're very good at imaginary.

Muppets like you undermine your own Regions by constantly bitching about the PRO12. That's when you're not bitching about the WRU, the Welsh clubs and with each other....

Right, I see. So TG4 paid €900,000 because muppets like me bitch about the Pr'O12 even though BBC Wales paid £3.2m.

Yes, stunning logic there. It must be definitely me that is the muppet when you can come up with logic like that.

The reason why the ROI only pay a fraction for the TV rights compared to Wales is glaringly obvious.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
BT did want to sponsor the 4 Provinces at the time. I can understand how some may see that as an attempt at bribery.

How? The Provinces have no say. They just do as their owners dictate.

And BT Sport is on the Ulster jersey.

BT sponsor an Ulster Jersey!!! Well I never

For your education: Just4Phibs

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I'm sure if you try hard enough you will see a link, even if imaginary. You're very good at imaginary.

Muppets like you undermine your own Regions by constantly bitching about the PRO12. That's when you're not bitching about the WRU, the Welsh clubs and with each other....

Right, I see. So TG4 paid €900,000 because muppets like me bitch about the Pr'O12 even though BBC Wales paid £3.2m.

Yes, stunning logic there. It must be definitely me that is the muppet when you can come up with logic like that.

You're citing the €900,000 as an excuse for running down the PRO12, and a chance to snipe at the Irish. The fact is that Your own Regions agreed to it, as did your Welsh PRO12 representatives.

P.s you have little connection with logic. Burning the platform that supports you is not good logic, but you might struggle with that...

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its all well and good putting in clauses but if the Welsh walked away broadcasters are left having to fill their schedules

I claimed it helped sustain the competition, you know how many companies wanted to step in when Rabo (an Irish based bank with no foothold in the other areas) pulled out? Two with the other being Turkish Airlines though that was probably just the Irish helping each other out and taking less money for the league

Do you have the figures paid by Irish broadcasters for the tv rights?

And there are more than two options but the complexities of the whole thing seem beyond you

You did claim it helped sustain the competition but you didn't quantify how it did that.

I've already presented the figures from the sole Irish broadcaster and provided links to prove those.

Nice little attempted insult there, Champ. Now, if he maximised the TV rights then you're telling me that is the value of the Pr'O12. Agreed?

Actually the figures you provided said Ireland, it didn't state where those figures come from as BBC NI broadcast most Ulster matches, given that Sky stepped on RTEs toes broadcasting mostly on Saturday evenings that would have weakened the Irish market. Also the Welsh figures state only BBC Wales and no mention of S4C. Since peoples nationality affects everything we do can we factor in it was a Welshman presenting the figures?

The Pro12 is not as valuable as its competitors no one can argue that, by selling the rights free to air rather than an exclusive deal to Sky this also decreases the value of the deal but it has the advantage of attracting more viewers and increasing the leagues visibility which should help in the long term

PhilBB, the Irish reckon, that our in fighting and our threats to pull away from the Pro12 is the reason why the league is "damaged". The thing is, they cannot see past their own misdemeanours when it comes to our league falling behind the rest of Europe.

Just leave it go Phil, trust me it is the easiest thing to do in these types of debates. You will not convince a single Irish man/woman on here that they're union should shoulder any responsibility towards the lack of money coming onto our league.

LordDowlais wrote:PhilBB, the Irish reckon, that our in fighting and our threats to pull away from the Pro12 is the reason why the league is "damaged". The thing is, they cannot see past their own misdemeanours when it comes to our league falling behind the rest of Europe.

That's a lie. The league isn't damaged in spite of the attempts of the Welsh Regions. In fact the league is thriving as sponsorship increases, as does league attendance.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:PhilBB, the Irish reckon, that our in fighting and our threats to pull away from the Pro12 is the reason why the league is "damaged". The thing is, they cannot see past their own misdemeanours when it comes to our league falling behind the rest of Europe.

That's a lie. The league isn't damaged in spite of the attempts of the Welsh Regions. In fact the league is thriving as sponsorship increases, as does league attendance.

Is it ? So it has never been mentioned on here before then ? Ok I must have imagined the umpteen pages of arguments we have all had recently over this.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:PhilBB, the Irish reckon, that our in fighting and our threats to pull away from the Pro12 is the reason why the league is "damaged". The thing is, they cannot see past their own misdemeanours when it comes to our league falling behind the rest of Europe.

That's a lie. The league isn't damaged in spite of the attempts of the Welsh Regions. In fact the league is thriving as sponsorship increases, as does league attendance.

Is it ? So it has never been mentioned on here before then ? Ok I must have imagined the umpteen pages of arguments we have all had recently over this.

Calling it a lie was wrong of me. Apologies, LD.

It is wrong though. The few Welsh Regions fans have been actively denigrating the PRO12 for some time now, but in spite of the denigrating, and contrary to some of their claims, the PRO12 continues to prosper.

Munchkin wrote:the PRO12 continues to prosper.

With this I agree, although we are miles behind where we should be, but that is down the the collective misdemeanours of ALL unions involved, not just specific one's.

LordDowlais wrote:PhilBB, the Irish reckon, that our in fighting and our threats to pull away from the Pro12 is the reason why the league is "damaged". The thing is, they cannot see past their own misdemeanours when it comes to our league falling behind the rest of Europe.

Just leave it go Phil, trust me it is the easiest thing to do in these types of debates. You will not convince a single Irish man/woman on here that they're union should shoulder any responsibility towards the lack of money coming onto our league.

Maybe some understand that the league cannot compete with the rest currently especially as its still developing, maybe some see that rather than the Welsh being shafted they have fallen behind in terms of competiveness, maybe just maybe some can see that the situation is complex rather than the Irish helping themselves at the expense of all else.

You have claimed that the Irish have used it as a developmental league, yet the 3 bigger Irish provinces have remained competitive and at the top end of the table against Welsh, Italian and Scottish counterparts who allegedly field their strongest team every week. The only Irish player who has been regularly rested was BOD who has now retired, other top Irish stars play as regularly in the league as their Welsh counterparts.

There are a plethora of reasons the league is less valuable from the state of the Italians, to big names leaving to the AP and Top14 across the board, a disjointed approach to many things, poor officials, Welsh manoeuvring, playing during international windows and many other things

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well you see, the problem for Irish based broadcasters is that ROI residents get UK stations so it makes it less attractive. Then Sky take the best of the rest (because they prefer not to broadcast from morgues in Scotland & Wales).

You won't get too many broadcasters interested in broadcasting a league if you don't have a good sponsor (who will spend money on buying advertising from them).

As for figures - Not having to pay 18% tax (applicable in the UK) on the 10m media share = 1.8m for starters.

Morgues? Right. So Sky don't broadcast games from Wales and Scotland? That's news to me. Can you elaborate on that as it seems that you are wholly wrong there.

Of the 18 upcoming games announced, 13 of the 18 on Sky involve Irish Provinces. Of the other 5, 2 involve Glasgow and the other 3 are Welsh & Scottish derbies (which are mostly on FTA as well as Sky).

The Irish Provinces are the big draw for Sky.

Aren't you confusing VAT with tax? I mean, I'm not UK / Republic of Ireland tax expert but I know that my business in the UK cannot reclaim VAT on invoices raised in Ireland, meaning that they automatically cost me 20% more.

As for the idea that broadcasters won't get involved in a competition without a headline sponsor then I do find that claim funny when you consider EPRC and the Champions League.

All in all, when you read that, it seems that the points you raised were complete fabrications.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about corporate tax which is 12.5% in Republic of Ireland (and which Celtic League Ltd has a sporting tax exemption). There is no VAT on tickets either which might explain why the organisers like to hold the PRO12 Final in the Rep. of Ireland.

And how is the EPRC doing without a mainline sponsor? Heineken are laughing their sides off as they are getting double the bang for their buck now! The Final was a disaster with them giving away tickets. Talking about being clueless.

By the way, the IRFU's income from the EPRC was down this year. I'd imagine something similar has happened to the Welsh Regions, but the EPRC are a great commercial success, aren't they?

marty2086 wrote:You have claimed that the Irish have used it as a developmental league, yet the 3 bigger Irish provinces have remained competitive and at the top end of the table against Welsh, Italian and Scottish counterparts who allegedly field their strongest team every week. The only Irish player who has been regularly rested was BOD who has now retired, other top Irish stars play as regularly in the league as their Welsh counterparts.

Only recently have the Irish played their best players in the league, the damage has been done over the years.

marty2086 wrote:There are a plethora of reasons the league is less valuable from the state of the Italians, to big names leaving to the AP and Top14 across the board, a disjointed approach to many things, poor officials, Welsh manoeuvring, playing during international windows and many other things

But none of that plethora is ever Irish related with the members on here.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:the PRO12 continues to prosper.

With this I agree, although we are miles behind where we should be, but that is down the the collective misdemeanours of ALL unions involved, not just specific one's.

I'm sure you meant 'ALL unions and the Regions'.

Where should we be, LD? Realistically I mean. Should we be up their with the AP and T14 in terms of sponsorship and broadcasting fees? I don't think so. I think we can attract much more lucrative offers, but that's something for the future as PRO12 continues to build.

Sin é wrote:Of the 18 upcoming games announced, 13 of the 18 on Sky involve Irish Provinces

How misleading is that quote ? Who are these Irish teams playing ? Other Irish provinces 18 times a season ? It could just as easy be said that of those 18 games most of them are against Welsh sides, so the teams they are playing against are the big draw. FFS, some people on here just make their own facts up, I am sure of it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:the PRO12 continues to prosper.

With this I agree, although we are miles behind where we should be, but that is down the the collective misdemeanours of ALL unions involved, not just specific one's.

I think it was always going to be difficult to balance the interests of the unions with the provinces in what is an international competition.

Honest question, where do you think the prosperity of Pro12 should be at LD? I don't think that it is realistic to be on the same level as Top14 and the EP. The project is a lot younger and so has less commitment investors and opportunities and the interest is (I'm guessing here) not as developed as France or England, and fan interest won't be the same until clubs become more established in the competition.

Negotiating big deals with Sky to take the game away from free-to-air is something I think would affect the accessibility to people and would be a bad move. I don't think any subscription service would handle it with the fostering it needs either. Would be good if it was picked up more by RTE as TG4 will never be capable of a big deal even though they should still be involved.