Will Toulon make it Four in a Row?

by **LondonTiger** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 11:02 am

First topic message reminder :

Pool 5: Bath Rugby, RC Toulon, Leinster Rugby, Wasps

That is, on first glance, a "Pool of Death". All four clubs made the 1/4 finals last season and played each other at various stages of the season. Toulon are most definitely rebuilding, Bath and Wasps are improving sides and Leinster have parted company with their Head Coach after what was for them a disappointing season. All four are past winners of the title.

Now some on here seem to think that Wasps will be whipping boys and will give up on this competition. With their additional recruitment I cannot see that and feel that they will be extremely hard to beat at home. Last season neither Bath nor Leinster won away to Wasps. Meanwhile all three of those sides should feel they can beat Toulon when they host them.

I struggle to see Toulon securing enough points to gain a home 1/4 final, and would not be surprised if they failed to win the group. As there is a good chance that the runner-up in this group will not make the 1/4s, that could see them knocked out early.

Over to you.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:03 pm

Fanster wrote:Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

That is total tosh. Toulon have a policy of fielding the best players that they can. If there is a French fly half who is as good as Gitau or Cooper, then they would play him.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:04 pm

Fanster wrote:The dig was sarcastic in nature I agree, but it was a very good point. Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

Toulon would also have maybe looked for FQ players before looking further afield, I mean lets be honest Manoa is an athlete but not gifted technically, and POC is on the turn, are there not French locks who are as effective as these 2 around? For the same price?

Cooper and Nonu have been signed directly to replace Michalak and Mermoz have they not? Are you telling me there is no French qualified 10 or centre available? In this case lets be honest there probably isn't, but why is that?

Toulons recruitment policy is simple, the bigger the name the better the signing, with a handfull of token French players to keep the NGB happy. Unless you have proof they enjoy signing French qualified players, I mean the like of proof that rivals...

1) Less than half of their playing squad FQ

2) 14 signings for this season less than half FQ

3)8/14 signings looking for first team action (None of them FQ)

So why is your greivance not directed at the FFR / LNR for having such slack laws? Why do Toulon incur your wrath by simply adhering to these laws doing the best they can?

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:06 pm

Fanster wrote:Any pro Toulon person in my view has no right to think Rugby union is any better than football, or can have any opinion on onfield antics in my view, tough I know but very fair!

Not wanting to drag other threads into this, but were you not the poster who complained about regional fans treating Pontypridd with the same disrespect as you are treating Toulon?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:10 pm

Fanster wrote:

I'm not a Toulon fan, not because of what theyve done, or what they've acheived, not even because of how the have done it, but how they have acted, how they conduct themselves, and how they put winning in front of everything, degenrating Rugby union to Footballs level on all counts!

Any pro Toulon person in my view has no right to think Rugby union is any better than football, or can have any opinion on onfield antics in my view, tough I know but very fair!

That's fantastic.

Especially the "how they put winning infront of everything" bit. Damn those winning bastards.

What Toulon have to do with soccer, I'm really not sure.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:11 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Fanster wrote:Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

That is total tosh. Toulon have a policy of fielding the best players that they can. If there is a French fly half who is as good as Gitau or Cooper, then they would play him.

Thats a cop out, and you know it! If every team only ever signed the very best player they could in any position the NH would be ploughed from top to bottom with SA and NZ players!

Toulons policy is fielding the best they can, but we're not discussing their fielding policy, we're discussing their recruitment policy, which is the bigger the name the better, to the detriment of every part of the game but Toulon. No other team in history as ever had such a detrimental effect of the sport globally!

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:15 pm

Fanster wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Fanster wrote:Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

That is total tosh. Toulon have a policy of fielding the best players that they can. If there is a French fly half who is as good as Gitau or Cooper, then they would play him.

Thats a cop out, and you know it! If every team only ever signed the very best player they could in any position the NH would be ploughed from top to bottom with SA and NZ players!

Toulons policy is fielding the best they can, but we're not discussing their fielding policy, we're discussing their recruitment policy, which is the bigger the name the better, to the detriment of every part of the game but Toulon. No other team in history as ever had such a detrimental effect of the sport globally!

What onus is on Toulon to do what's best for rugby anywhere other than Toulon?

This is a multi million Euro sports industry fo goodness sake, not a charity.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:17 pm

Scarlet

Not at all, I have had and never will have an opinion on the Ponty Cardiff rivalry, I was the poster who commented on the thread being hard to read because of the bully tactics, personal jibes, and pack mentality I read from 4/5 posters directed toward 1 who wasn't disagreeing with them!

Chunky

You make a good point about the LNR/FFR and they have to shoulder some blame, the decline of the national team can come down to the lawmaking a touch. However the laws/rules were not being adhered to, they were and are being shamelessly exploited, broken and in some cases bent using teams of sollicitors and loopholes to forge openings. Issues like FQ player numbers and salary cap are a joke that Boudjelel is happy to flaunt how he gets around and taunts others. Not to mention the bully boy tactics.

If you have no idea why football is used in this discussion of the footballisation of Rugby in France then I have clearly over estimated you, and well there is no point having the discussion.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:21 pm

Fanster wrote: However the laws/rules were not being adhered to, they were and are being shamelessly exploited, broken and in some cases bent using teams of sollicitors and loopholes to forge openings. Issues like FQ player numbers and salary cap are a joke that Boudjelel is happy to flaunt how he gets around and taunts others. Not to mention the bully boy tactics.

These "loopholes" you speak of have been the same for years. All the way back to Newcastle, Harlequins, Saracens of yesteryear. Bristol RFC are the worst in the world at it. I don't hear anybody screaming blue murder at them............you know why.........because they haven't won anything. You make it sound like Toulon have done something heinous.

If you have no idea why football is used in this discussion of the footballisation of Rugby in France then I have clearly over estimated you, and well there is no point having the discussion.

Footballisation? The France squad looks pretty handy to me. If they had a decent coach they'd be a decent RWC prospect.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:21 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Fanster wrote:Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

That is total tosh. Toulon have a policy of fielding the best players that they can. If there is a French fly half who is as good as Gitau or Cooper, then they would play him.

Thats a cop out, and you know it! If every team only ever signed the very best player they could in any position the NH would be ploughed from top to bottom with SA and NZ players!

Toulons policy is fielding the best they can, but we're not discussing their fielding policy, we're discussing their recruitment policy, which is the bigger the name the better, to the detriment of every part of the game but Toulon. No other team in history as ever had such a detrimental effect of the sport globally!

What onus is on Toulon to do what's best for rugby anywhere other than Toulon?

This is a multi million Euro sports industry fo goodness sake, not a charity.

Rugby itslef put onus on everyone of us to to do whats best for rugby and beyond!!

By your reasoning the charity that a group of university students coordinate to raise money for a former players illness is by definition not their problem so why would they bother?!

The way the game is going club rugby will reduce international rugby to a bt part of the game, similar to football, and because the money in rugby isn't the same nations like Wales, Ireland, Scoland, Italy, and the PI's will wall away into obscurity and just become talent identification areas for the Aviva, T14 and a revamped commercial SA league (or some such). Which is great if your the top 1% of rugby fans who are from one of those 3 countries, but it kills rugby as an inclusive game for all.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:24 pm

Fanster wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Fanster wrote:Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

That is total tosh. Toulon have a policy of fielding the best players that they can. If there is a French fly half who is as good as Gitau or Cooper, then they would play him.

Thats a cop out, and you know it! If every team only ever signed the very best player they could in any position the NH would be ploughed from top to bottom with SA and NZ players!

Toulons policy is fielding the best they can, but we're not discussing their fielding policy, we're discussing their recruitment policy, which is the bigger the name the better, to the detriment of every part of the game but Toulon. No other team in history as ever had such a detrimental effect of the sport globally!

You were the one taking some arguments to a case of semantics earlier in the thread. I am just pointing out to you that your argument is complete tosh. No team would try to shoe horn in non-qualified players over national/local players at every opportunity. However they will try to field the best players they can. Are you saying Toulon would not field Basteraud, Michilak, Mermoz etc if they were the best they had access to?

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:25 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote: However the laws/rules were not being adhered to, they were and are being shamelessly exploited, broken and in some cases bent using teams of sollicitors and loopholes to forge openings. Issues like FQ player numbers and salary cap are a joke that Boudjelel is happy to flaunt how he gets around and taunts others. Not to mention the bully boy tactics.

These "loopholes" you speak of have been the same for years. All the way back to Newcastle, Harlequins, Saracens of yesteryear. Bristol RFC are the worst in the world at it. I don't hear anybody screaming blue murder at them............you know why.........because they haven't won anything. You make it sound like Toulon have done something heinous.

If you have no idea why football is used in this discussion of the footballisation of Rugby in France then I have clearly over estimated you, and well there is no point having the discussion.

Footballisation? The France squad looks pretty handy to me. If they had a decent coach they'd be a decent RWC prospect.

The French squad look pretty handy to you? Leave it out, they are a mess, they have no back up n the tight 5, no 10, and are trying to convert players to FQ left and centre, all due to the lack of opportunities for FQ youngsters in the T14. France have always been in recent years a 6N contender on the whole, and yet they are now in a duldrem battle with Italy and Scotland every year.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:27 pm

It does seem to annoy a lot of people that Toulon both make a profit and sign quite a few French players. As time goes by you'd expect them to develop their academy to a level where superstars are being internally developed as well as being signed.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:27 pm

Fanster wrote:

Rugby itslef put onus on everyone of us to to do whats best for rugby and beyond!!

By your reasoning the charity that a group of university students coordinate to raise money for a former players illness is by definition not their problem so why would they bother?!

You've gone to such a level of hubris and abject analogy that it's pitiful. Check the articles of association in private businesses terms and conditions. They state that the chairman / ceo will always do what's best for the company and/or it's sharehodlers. And you expect Toulon to think twice about buying the best players it can possibly buy to try and win the competitions it enters, and instead hold back, play a raft of France under 20 players "for the good of the game".

You reside on another planet. Probably in another galaxy.

The way the game is going club rugby will reduce international rugby to a bt part of the game, similar to football, and because the money in rugby isn't the same nations like Wales, Ireland, Scoland, Italy, and the PI's will wall away into obscurity and just become talent identification areas for the Aviva, T14 and a revamped commercial SA league (or some such). Which is great if your the top 1% of rugby fans who are from one of those 3 countries, but it kills rugby as an inclusive game for all.

It doesn't have to. The blazers in charge of the Unions can plug the gap and share the wealth if they wanted to.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:28 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:It does seem to annoy a lot of people that Toulon both make a profit and sign quite a few French players. As time goes by you'd expect them to develop their academy to a level where superstars are being internally developed as well as being signed.

Ah but that will be because they are poaching the under 8s from elsewhere.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:29 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Fanster wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Fanster wrote:Toulon have a policy of fielding NFQ players over French players at every opportunity, otherwise their owner wouldn't have gone out and employed all those solicitors to exploit grey areas and loopholes in order for him to field more NFQ players would he?

That is total tosh. Toulon have a policy of fielding the best players that they can. If there is a French fly half who is as good as Gitau or Cooper, then they would play him.

Thats a cop out, and you know it! If every team only ever signed the very best player they could in any position the NH would be ploughed from top to bottom with SA and NZ players!

Toulons policy is fielding the best they can, but we're not discussing their fielding policy, we're discussing their recruitment policy, which is the bigger the name the better, to the detriment of every part of the game but Toulon. No other team in history as ever had such a detrimental effect of the sport globally!

You were the one taking some arguments to a case of semantics earlier in the thread. I am just pointing out to you that your argument is complete tosh. No team would try to shoe horn in non-qualified players over national/local players at every opportunity. However they will try to field the best players they can. Are you saying Toulon would not field Basteraud, Michilak, Mermoz etc if they were the best they had access to?

We're talking issues now, it's not semantics to say Toulons recruiting policy end of season is anywhere near the same as their player selection policy during the season, Mermox, Michalak have just proved unworthy, but they were being played because they were the best available, well now the chance to replace them is here they are being replaced with NFQ players!

How exactly are you saying a recruitment policy is the same as team selection?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:31 pm

Fanster wrote:
We're talking issues now, it's not semantics to say Toulons recruiting policy end of season is anywhere near the same as their player selection policy during the season, Mermox, Michalak have just proved unworthy, but they were being played because they were the best available, well now the chance to replace them is here they are being replaced with NFQ players!

Why do you persist with the Mermoz / Michelak thing? Just because those 2 have been replaced with NFQ players? The laws are the same as last season, and hey ho, same again, Toulon won't be breaking them.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:35 pm

Sam

I'm not annoyed with their recruitment policy as such, I just started to debate with Chunky as he claimed they like signing French players, which they don't.

Cyril

Theres no aggression, I'm actually enjoying a debate with Chunky and Scarlet around a key issue in rugby, why you felt the need to rock up and start incinuating things about me I don't know, ask yourself what your comment added to the debate?

Chunky

Why are you trying to over exagerate my claim to try to devalue my argument, once again it makes you look like you can't debate on facts and reasoning, but are looking for a cheap win of some sort. If you please show me however where I stated Toulon had to limit themselves, or play U20 players you win right here right now.

And how exactly do the IRFU, WRU, and SRU plug the gap in wealth between T14 clubs and their clubs? What with the 6N being one of their greatest sources of income, and if the club game gains the dominance it wants over international rugby the income from that deteriorates.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:40 pm

Fanster wrote:

I'm not annoyed with their recruitment policy as such, I just started to debate with Chunky as he claimed they like signing French players, which they don't.

Where did I say that?

Why are you trying to over exagerate my claim to try to devalue my argument, once again it makes you look like you can't debate on facts and reasoning, but are looking for a cheap win of some sort. If you please show me however where I stated Toulon had to limit themselves, or play U20 players you win right here right now.

The "footballisation" is the exaggeration.

And how exactly do the IRFU, WRU, and SRU plug the gap in wealth between T14 clubs and their clubs? What with the 6N being one of their greatest sources of income, and if the club game gains the dominance it wants over international rugby the income from that deteriorates.

A British and Irish League.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:41 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:
We're talking issues now, it's not semantics to say Toulons recruiting policy end of season is anywhere near the same as their player selection policy during the season, Mermox, Michalak have just proved unworthy, but they were being played because they were the best available, well now the chance to replace them is here they are being replaced with NFQ players!

Why do you persist with the Mermoz / Michelak thing? Just because those 2 have been replaced with NFQ players? The laws are the same as last season, and hey ho, same again, Toulon won't be breaking them.

They won't be breaking them, because their team of lawyers, and underhand tactics have the FFR hands tied behind their backs! At every opportunity he uses the media to inform players, fans, club owners, NGB's and the worlds governing body that he will take legal action when he doesn't get his way! This is the guy your defending!!

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:44 pm

Fanster wrote:

They won't be breaking them, because their team of lawyers, and underhand tactics have the FFR hands tied behind their backs! At every opportunity he uses the media to inform players, fans, club owners, NGB's and the worlds governing body that he will take legal action when he doesn't get his way! This is the guy your defending!!

Underhand tactics? Lol.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:48 pm

You inadvertantly claimed wrongly that they were the 3rd largest representated T14 team in the national squad, as a defence of someone mocking their recruitment policy as being not French in nature. Or were you suggesting they developed these players themselves?

The footballisation is hardly an exageration, there is discussion of transfer fee's in the media, Club rugby in France is becoming the dominnt force over the national team, Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money, the responsibility of everyone involved in pro Rugby is now just to themselves (according to you) and the 2 main leagues on the planet are having what looks like to be a race to the top and signing world class names from all over the planet, budgets are becoming silly, player wage becoming silly, and there is a gulf looming between the average club fan and the average player/official etc...

Need I go on?! Should we talk about on field behaviour, crowd trouble, off field behavior?

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:49 pm

Although I do think I'm coming around to the British and Irish league idea, although creation would probably make it impossible.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 12:53 pm

Fanster wrote:You inadvertantly claimed wrongly that they were the 3rd largest representated T14 team in the national squad, as a defence of someone mocking their recruitment policy as being not French in nature. Or were you suggesting they developed these players themselves?

The footballisation is hardly an exageration, there is discussion of transfer fee's in the media, Club rugby in France is becoming the dominnt force over the national team, Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money, the responsibility of everyone involved in pro Rugby is now just to themselves (according to you) and the 2 main leagues on the planet are having what looks like to be a race to the top and signing world class names from all over the planet, budgets are becoming silly, player wage becoming silly, and there is a gulf looming between the average club fan and the average player/official etc...

Need I go on?! Should we talk about on field behaviour, crowd trouble, off field behavior?

Transfer fees? Are Newport Dragons also encouraging the footbalisation of rugby then?

You can go on and on if you like. But all you are showing is your naivety towards the state of profesisonal rugby. The fact you think club owners are busienssmen looking to make money shows how out of touch you are.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:02 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:You inadvertantly claimed wrongly that they were the 3rd largest representated T14 team in the national squad, as a defence of someone mocking their recruitment policy as being not French in nature. Or were you suggesting they developed these players themselves?

The footballisation is hardly an exageration, there is discussion of transfer fee's in the media, Club rugby in France is becoming the dominnt force over the national team, Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money, the responsibility of everyone involved in pro Rugby is now just to themselves (according to you) and the 2 main leagues on the planet are having what looks like to be a race to the top and signing world class names from all over the planet, budgets are becoming silly, player wage becoming silly, and there is a gulf looming between the average club fan and the average player/official etc...

Need I go on?! Should we talk about on field behaviour, crowd trouble, off field behavior?

Transfer fees? Are Newport Dragons also encouraging the footbalisation of rugby then?

You can go on and on if you like. But all you are showing is your naivety towards the state of profesisonal rugby. The fact you think club owners are busienssmen looking to make money shows how out of touch you are.

Really, so Toulon did not boast profits this year?

And by your own admission Toulon is a business, run by businessmen, why do they have a duty to anyone else beside themselves? You can't have it both ways, you can't use the pro rugby is a business line, then say tht profits are out of touch!

Besided we both know profits aren't main objectives of Boudjellal, he wants political clout, and he wants a media career. Similar to LaPorte, which is probbaly why he hired him in the first place due to his Sarkozy connections.

With regards to the Dragons, clubs like that who have been pushed down in the mud, and hamstrung by their NGB just want to survive, you realise that most reactions that contribute to the footballisation of rugby are reactions through desperation.

by whocares Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:14 pm

Fanster wrote:You inadvertantly claimed wrongly that they were the 3rd largest representated T14 team in the national squad, as a defence of someone mocking their recruitment policy as being not French in nature. Or were you suggesting they developed these players themselves?

The footballisation is hardly an exageration, there is discussion of transfer fee's in the media, Club rugby in France is becoming the dominnt force over the national team, Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money, the responsibility of everyone involved in pro Rugby is now just to themselves (according to you) and the 2 main leagues on the planet are having what looks like to be a race to the top and signing world class names from all over the planet, budgets are becoming silly, player wage becoming silly, and there is a gulf looming between the average club fan and the average player/official etc...

Need I go on?! Should we talk about on field behaviour, crowd trouble, off field behavior?

yes please. I remember asking for proof a few weeks ago and still havent seen anythign remotely close ... same thing on Toulon powerful team of lawyers, who are they exactly? Smile

for the record, transfer fee woudl be a good thing as it would create an incentive for clubs to develop their own players without fearing seing them poached by other teams. It takes more time and money to develop good players than to buy a random south african with curry cup experience. and I have no doubt that with such incentive you would see more focus towards academy players.

for the record here's latest toulon NFQs players movement :

IN : Nonu , Ma'afu ,Manoa ,Vermeulen , Ringer , Cooper, O'Connell ,Savou , Stevens
OUT : Botha , D. Smith , Sanchez ,Hayman A. Williams, Masoe , Wulf , Claassens , Castrogiovanni , Burden , Vosloo

net balance : 2 NFQ players leaving, maybe 3 if Gorgodze doesnt stay.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:26 pm

Fanster wrote:

Really, so Toulon did not boast profits this year?

£480k

This is what Mourad got into rugby for? £480k?

And by your own admission Toulon is a business, run by businessmen, why do they have a duty to anyone else beside themselves? You can't have it both ways, you can't use the pro rugby is a business line, then say tht profits are out of touch!

What does that even mean? Profits are out of touch?

Besided we both know profits aren't main objectives of Boudjellal, he wants political clout, and he wants a media career. Similar to LaPorte, which is probbaly why he hired him in the first place due to his Sarkozy connections.

So now you say profits aren't the main objective of Boudjellal, whereas 10 minutes ago you said "Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money"

What on earth are you talking about?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:27 pm

whocares wrote:

for the record here's latest toulon NFQs players movement :

IN : Nonu , Ma'afu ,Manoa ,Vermeulen , Ringer , Cooper, O'Connell ,Savou , Stevens
OUT : Botha , D. Smith , Sanchez ,Hayman A. Williams, Masoe , Wulf , Claassens , Castrogiovanni , Burden , Vosloo

net balance : 2 NFQ players leaving, maybe 3 if Gorgodze doesnt stay.

Ouch

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:29 pm

whocares, Joel Ringer is not nationally tied yet, so could even end up as being French qualified.

by whocares Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:32 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:whocares, Joel Ringer is not nationally tied yet, so could even end up as being French qualified.

fair enough, never heard of him l before I must say! is he a TH prop?

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:34 pm

You realise that if a team is a large % NFQ then when all the glamouplayers start to retire / get replaced the odd FQ player is going to up the stakes. Of those coming in name me which are the first teamers and who are the squadmen!

I'm not seeing many if any new FQ signings who will threaten a first team after the RWC, are we not considering the RWC as a motive for signing FQ players who won't be there?

Chunky

Now you've just stopped debating and have lost the plot, you just mentioned that if I think businessmen are in it for profit i'm out of touch, and either your not able to see the link between what I wrote or well your doing it on purpose once again to try to trip me up in order to devalue my argument, which once again is a cheap effort on your part. How many times do I have to keep calling you out on this before you debate the issue?

I explicitly said profits weren't Boudjellals main objective did I not? Are you not able to read that?

Either way you look at it, footballisation is a common theme in rugby, despite you beleiving it to be from 'another galaxy',

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:37 pm

whocares wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:whocares, Joel Ringer is not nationally tied yet, so could even end up as being French qualified.

fair enough, never heard of him l before I must say! is he a TH prop?

To be honest I hadn't heard about him before he was signed up by Toulon either, but I believe he is a tight head.

But I do think it is a sign of things to come. Teams signing up youngsters who show potential from academies elsewhere, early enough that they are not nationally tied, and will not count towards their non-qualified quotas when they are finally ready for top flight rugby.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 1:38 pm

Who cares

You want proof of rugby's trends falling into a football model? Do you really want me to go off and find numerous recent cases of 'simulation' referee hounding, cheating, despicible comments about referee's, governing bodies, foreign signings taking over, money men taking control?

I know your not that niaive!

I think Cleese put it best when he said

''I was always a sports nut, but I've lost interest now in whether one bunch of mercenaries in North London is going to beat another bunch of mercenaries from West London."

I could happily swap North and West London with South and North France!

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:00 pm

Fanster wrote:You realise that if a team is a large % NFQ then when all the glamouplayers start to retire / get replaced the odd FQ player is going to up the stakes. Of those coming in name me which are the first teamers and who are the squadmen!

I'm not seeing many if any new FQ signings who will threaten a first team after the RWC, are we not considering the RWC as a motive for signing FQ players who won't be there?

Chunky

Now you've just stopped debating and have lost the plot, you just mentioned that if I think businessmen are in it for profit i'm out of touch, and either your not able to see the link between what I wrote or well your doing it on purpose once again to try to trip me up in order to devalue my argument, which once again is a cheap effort on your part. How many times do I have to keep calling you out on this before you debate the issue?

I explicitly said profits weren't Boudjellals main objective did I not? Are you not able to read that?
,

You also said "Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money". You've also been proved wrong on Toulon's foreign recruitment policy for next season. You appear just to be ranting due to boredom.

by whocares Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:01 pm

Fanster wrote:Who cares

You want proof of rugby's trends falling into a football model? Do you really want me to go off and find numerous recent cases of 'simulation' referee hounding, cheating, despicible comments about referee's, governing bodies, foreign signings taking over, money men taking control?

football model ?? you dont know what you talking about.
I think you will find out that the number of high profile cheating/play-acting/insulting etc in a rugby season is way below what you have during an evarge weekend of football (probably even less than in certain games).
money wise : TOP 14 tv rights circa 50 million pounds per season vs EPL tv rights 1.5 billion pounds per season... I can keep on comparing numbers(player wages, budgets , allowed losses) but I dont think it is necessary

by No 7&1/2 Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:03 pm

Cheating, hounding, simulation, comments about refs have all been around for a good long while. Not entirely sure they're all that bad for rugby. What do they really do that's that much different to anyone else. They just do it better.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:31 pm

Who cares

I know you understand the difference between the word trends, and the actual comparible figures of each sport!
Is it not true there is more money in rugby now then ever before? If so, then the trend of increasing monetary gains in rugby would be toward where football is would it not?
On pitch behaviour toward officials, and off field behaviour such as Boudjellals and Lambs comments towards referee's is becoming more so, does anyone disagree post match interviews have always been this scathing in rugby? No, didn't think so, which is also following a trend toward where football is!

I'm not sure why your either being so defencive toward what is clealy a pathway well documented over recent seasons, both in fanbase, media pro circles etc..

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:36 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:You realise that if a team is a large % NFQ then when all the glamouplayers start to retire / get replaced the odd FQ player is going to up the stakes. Of those coming in name me which are the first teamers and who are the squadmen!

I'm not seeing many if any new FQ signings who will threaten a first team after the RWC, are we not considering the RWC as a motive for signing FQ players who won't be there?

Chunky

Now you've just stopped debating and have lost the plot, you just mentioned that if I think businessmen are in it for profit i'm out of touch, and either your not able to see the link between what I wrote or well your doing it on purpose once again to try to trip me up in order to devalue my argument, which once again is a cheap effort on your part. How many times do I have to keep calling you out on this before you debate the issue?

I explicitly said profits weren't Boudjellals main objective did I not? Are you not able to read that?
,

You also said "Club owners are now just businessmen looking to make money". You've also been proved wrong on Toulon's foreign recruitment policy for next season. You appear just to be ranting due to boredom.

Now your making yourself look silly, your the claimant of rugby being a business, I've clearly stated Boudjellals goals aren't profit orientated, and have reacted to your BS for long enough.

By being proved wrong you mean that Toulon have signed more FQ players this season than NFQ, of which the recruitment policy argument we were talking about being biased toward NFQ players. Please go and recheck how many signings they have made, and what the majority is, FQ or NFQ. While your at it go and check what the squad ratio is and then we'll talk about the recruitment policy being French because they 'have the largest representation in the french squad except Cleremont and Racing' Laugh

You've officially tried every twist and turn in this debate yet end at the same place, Toulon is not good for French, international, or global rugby sadly.

by whocares Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:40 pm

Fanster wrote:Is it not true there is more money in rugby now then ever before? If so, then the trend of increasing monetary gains in rugby would be toward where football is would it not?

well the sport was amateur a couple of decades a go so yes there is more money now ! money is increasing as it attracts more interests from either public (but limited upside right now), tv companies (also limited upside as limited games and less exposure) and sponsors (limited exposure in time and geography), not sure that's enough to constitute a real trend and clearly there is no chance it will ever be where football is simply because rugby will never be a global sport let alone world number one sport. am not sure why even compare them to be honest. that was my point. as for the off field antics of Mr Boujellall it is part of his PR strategy. blame the journos for talking about so much him.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:48 pm

whocares wrote:
Fanster wrote:Is it not true there is more money in rugby now then ever before? If so, then the trend of increasing monetary gains in rugby would be toward where football is would it not?

well the sport was amateur a couple of decades a go so yes there is more money now ! money is increasing as it attracts more interests from either public (but limited upside right now), tv companies (also limited upside as limited games and less exposure) and sponsors (limited exposure in time and geography), not sure that's enough to constitute a real trend and clearly there is no chance it will ever be where football is simply because rugby will never be a global sport let alone world number one sport. am not sure why even compare them to be honest. that was my point. as for the off field antics of Mr Boujellall it is part of his PR strategy. blame the journos for talking about so much him.

Really? So wildcard madman rugby club owner who intentionally causes a stink, bullies his players, opposition fans, NGB's the international game etc is not at fault, despite being a media lady of loose morals who wants a career in politic and will do whatever it takes to get into the media is not at fault, but the media for covering him.

That is as good a defence as i've ever heard.

With regards to money, it's not just T14, it's all club rugy to a point, money wasn't the overriding factor most times, it was the good of the club and game, owners were studied and deliberated over at one stage, now they are just the ones willing to open their cheque books!

The sad fact is as club rugby becomes more popular, foreign owners start to see the as investment opportunities, or mere play toys, and rugby will certinly head toward where football is, even if, as you rightly pointed out it can't reach the same state, it definately gets a few inches closer every season!

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 2:51 pm

Fanster wrote:

The sad fact is as club rugby becomes more popular, foreign owners start to see the as investment opportunities, or mere play toys, and rugby will certinly head toward where football is, even if, as you rightly pointed out it can't reach the same state, it definately gets a few inches closer every season!

What investment opportunity is there in buying a rugby club?

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:01 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:

The sad fact is as club rugby becomes more popular, foreign owners start to see the as investment opportunities, or mere play toys, and rugby will certinly head toward where football is, even if, as you rightly pointed out it can't reach the same state, it definately gets a few inches closer every season!

What investment opportunity is there in buying a rugby club?

Didn't you just claim Toulon made a profit of half a million this year? Not to mention if your someone like Mike Ashley you can brand the shaddazzle out of it, and combine a few interests in one.

Clearly half a million a year, and media attention galore while getting ready to run a political career is suitable for Boudjellal.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:07 pm

Fanster wrote:
Didn't you just claim Toulon made a profit of half a million this year? Not to mention if your someone like Mike Ashley you can brand the shaddazzle out of it, and combine a few interests in one.

Clearly half a million a year, and media attention galore while getting ready to run a political career is suitable for Boudjellal.

So in 10 years, Toulon has made Boudjellal £480k?

You're either trolling very poorly, or you've become so confused you don't know what you're arguing about.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:13 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Didn't you just claim Toulon made a profit of half a million this year? Not to mention if your someone like Mike Ashley you can brand the shaddazzle out of it, and combine a few interests in one.

Clearly half a million a year, and media attention galore while getting ready to run a political career is suitable for Boudjellal.

So in 10 years, Toulon has made Boudjellal £480k?

You're either trolling very poorly, or you've become so confused you don't know what you're arguing about.

You re clearly confused again, you twist and turn to avoid facts you tie yourelf in knots...

Noone is claiming Boudjellal has ever made a profit, because he hasn't and pays players outside of what he needs to present as official figures.

You claimed Toulon made a 480k profit this year alone, who said anything about 10 years?

And I also said in the future, meaning the money in rugby is still not there yet, although Boudjellals doing his best to prove it is by his profits!!

Now try with some facts, don't try to manipulate what was said, don't try to score cheap points, don't make an aside argument, just respond to me directly, without insult, or sarcasm, try not to let your apologist agenda shine through, see things for what they are, facts.

You asked what profit is in rugby, I referenced your 487k? claim, and in the future this could become millions, so, what is to stop a russian oil baron buying a team and making it his play toy?

by Sin é Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:14 pm

The purchase of Wasps was very much an investment opportunity whereas the likes of Bath & Saracens are ego trips for their owners.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:17 pm

Sin é wrote:The purchase of Wasps was very much an investment opportunity whereas the likes of Bath & Saracens are ego trips for their owners.

Yes, I think I agree with that. Wasps are very much a one off.

Also, don't forget that for some rich benefactors they actually DO love their club, their hometown and are still massive fans at heart.

by Sin é Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:19 pm

I'd be pretty sure that Abromavitch loves Chelsea, but he is still on an ego trip.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:21 pm

Fanster wrote:

You re clearly confused again, you twist and turn to avoid facts you tie yourelf in knots...

Noone is claiming Boudjellal has ever made a profit, because he hasn't and pays players outside of what he needs to present as official figures.

You claimed Toulon made a 480k profit this year alone, who said anything about 10 years?

Me. Because he's been there 10 years. And this is the first year they've made a profit I believe.

You asked what profit is in rugby, I referenced your 487k? claim, and in the future this could become millions, so, what is to stop a russian oil baron buying a team and making it his play toy?

Nothing. But they won't be doing it to make an investment. If they do, they won't be getting much return.

Your claim of " profitbecoming millions" is way off. We are 16/17 years into professional rugby, and last year only 5 clubs in the Northern hemisphere made a profit.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:21 pm

Sin é wrote:I'd be pretty sure that Abromavitch loves Chelsea, but he is still on an ego trip.

More like a bid to save his life.

by Fanster Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:29 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Fanster wrote:

You re clearly confused again, you twist and turn to avoid facts you tie yourelf in knots...

Noone is claiming Boudjellal has ever made a profit, because he hasn't and pays players outside of what he needs to present as official figures.

You claimed Toulon made a 480k profit this year alone, who said anything about 10 years?

Me. Because he's been there 10 years. And this is the first year they've made a profit I believe.

You asked what profit is in rugby, I referenced your 487k? claim, and in the future this could become millions, so, what is to stop a russian oil baron buying a team and making it his play toy?

Nothing. But they won't be doing it to make an investment. If they do, they won't be getting much return.

Your claim of " profitbecoming millions" is way off. We are 16/17 years into professional rugby, and last year only 5 clubs in the Northern hemisphere made a profit.

I don't care that he's been there 10 years, I care that he has made a profit this year (I'm trying so hard not to laugh when I type that btw). IF he proves you can make money then others will come and try to make money, I'm not sure if the Wasps buyers are that way inclined, I don't know enough about them or the deal, but it is a worrying one off considering others will come and it certainly will not be a one off!

Why would rugby profit not become millions, I can guarentee someone will make a million sooner or later, then 2, then 5 etc...

Of the 5 clubs how many opened the entirity of their books for a good old fashioned poke around?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 29 Jun 2015, 3:44 pm

Fanster wrote:

I don't care that he's been there 10 years, I care that he has made a profit this year (I'm trying so hard not to laugh when I type that btw). IF he proves you can make money then others will come and try to make money, I'm not sure if the Wasps buyers are that way inclined, I don't know enough about them or the deal, but it is a worrying one off considering others will come and it certainly will not be a one off!

Exactly. You don't care about the facts that are being posted. Because you cannot debate prpoerly.

Why would rugby profit not become millions, I can guarentee someone will make a million sooner or later, then 2, then 5 etc...

Of the 5 clubs how many opened the entirity of their books for a good old fashioned poke around?

pass. Don't understand why it's relevant.

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