Windies test tour - interesting news

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11448739/England-begin-planning-for-Test-tour-of-West-Indies-and-life-after-Kevin-Pietersen.html

Just when you think you're losing interest in England, they're going to select Adil Rashid and bring back Trott

As much as Trott may have earned his place on merit I cant seem him as anything other than a stop gap for a lack of faith in Robson and a place holder for Lyth or Lees who will have to take over in a couple of years when he dies anyway. Even Cook may need an understudy.
Sense of misplaced loyalty / chumradeship? Heart over head?
Still there would have been no point in sending him on the lions if he wasnt auditioning for a recall. Its good to see him recover but England really should be thinking longer term, theres been too much chopping and changing of the openers as it is. Unless they are seeing Root back in the top 3?

Rashid...hmm. Hmm. Again its nice to see hes put a bad run behind him and that hes getting a chance in tests based on his first class record, rather than being tested in limited overs where his domestic record isnt so good.

Id like to see Billings over Bairstow who hasnt yet earned a recall in my eyes. I suspect they will only take Billings for limited overs though and see Bairstow as a player who could be selected with Buttler in tests purely on his batting. His test record says otherwise.

Stokes hopefully will tour and continue his recovery.

Am not convinced Rashid will definitely make it, but I could easily see Trott being back. And why not, if he is over his illness then he was our most reliable batsman for 3 or 4 years. He has made some good scores below England level since coming back so I think its fair that he is selected again.

His age is the issue. I guess they are as usual looking no further than the next Ashes, at which time he will be turning 35 ..so in theory playing for a pension but not the oldest batsman in world cricket.
End of the day hes being selected on sheer weight of runs, which is not a bad thing.

Gooseberry wrote:His age is the issue. I guess they are as usual looking no further than the next Ashes, at which time he will be turning 35 ..so in theory playing for a pension but not the oldest batsman in world cricket.
End of the day hes being selected on sheer weight of runs, which is not a bad thing.

England players are usually burnt out by 35, though as Trott started his international career late, maybe he could carry on to his late 30's. It's all a big if though with that mental illness as well

Looking back the oldest vaguely recent retiring england test batsman I can find is Thorpe at 35 and change.

The tour after the Ashes is SA, so if Trott is still fit and firing I guess he wouldnt want to miss that either. Plus for England is they wouldnt have to pay his return flight

OK uneasy objection removed. The question then is does he go as an opener competing with Robson or a 3?

VTR wrote:Am not convinced Rashid will definitely make it, but I could easily see Trott being back. And why not, if he is over his illness then he was our most reliable batsman for 3 or 4 years. He has made some good scores below England level since coming back so I think its fair that he is selected again.  

I'd love to see Trotty flicking the ball through mid wicket again - think he can come in and play a role like Chris Rogers does for Australia. Hold the mantle until a younger pup is ready.

And he's made runs for the lions, so hes earnt it.

Would be good to give Rashid a go, especially in his best discipline. A good batsmen too

Gayle will retire from tests says he himself .....Bravo already has.
A few more might.
It will be an A side and hence Eng can afford to experiment

Gooseberry wrote:Looking back the oldest vaguely recent retiring england test batsman I can find is Thorpe at 35 and change.

The tour after the Ashes is SA, so if Trott is still fit and firing I guess he wouldnt want to miss that either. Plus for England is they wouldnt have to pay his return flight

OK uneasy objection removed. The question then is does he go as an opener competing with Robson or a 3?

I seem to remember Thorpe being pretty much retired by England as they wanted to bring Bell in for the 2005 Ashes (and he ended up being a disaster). Thorpe was my favourite player, and its a shame he didn't get to play that series!

Other than that you would be looking at Alec Stewart who was 39 I think when he retired.

Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Am not convinced Rashid will definitely make it, but I could easily see Trott being back. And why not, if he is over his illness then he was our most reliable batsman for 3 or 4 years. He has made some good scores below England level since coming back so I think its fair that he is selected again.  

I'd love to see Trotty flicking the ball through mid wicket again - think he can come in and play a role like Chris Rogers does for Australia. Hold the mantle until a younger pup is ready.

Chris rogers will turn 38 during the next Ashes, so there could be plenty of cricket in someone like Trott. It's a good comparison as they are both pragmatic batsmen whose contribution is hugely underrated

Would be a real pity if Gayle retired. You can probably understand though, and he's had a very good test career for Windies, slightly better than his ODI career.

That said, while this West Indian team would have lost 3-0 in South Africa had it not been for rain, they can (operative word) prove a challenge. Kraigg Brathwaite is coming along as a cricketer, and Marlon Samuels can be very good (if always one shot from a brain fade), and Darren Bravo has shown glimpses of living up to the Lara moniker. Jerome Taylor has been a very good pro before, Kemar Roach is brilliant when at full tilt (145-155) and Jason Holder, when he gets it together, can become one of the greats. Don't underestimate them

VTR wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Looking back the oldest vaguely recent retiring england test batsman I can find is Thorpe at 35 and change.

The tour after the Ashes is SA, so if Trott is still fit and firing I guess he wouldnt want to miss that either. Plus for England is they wouldnt have to pay his return flight

OK uneasy objection removed. The question then is does he go as an opener competing with Robson or a 3?

I seem to remember Thorpe being pretty much retired by England as they wanted to bring Bell in for the 2005 Ashes (and he ended up being a disaster). Thorpe was my favourite player, and its a shame he didn't get to play that series!

Other than that you would be looking at Alec Stewart who was 39 I think when he retired.

that's not quite right. Thorpe was actually retired for KP, who everyone (well the selectors and the captain at least) wanted to get in the team after his ODI showings. Bell had already made his place in the side after scoring runs in previous tests (admittedly against WI and Bangladesh I think). The decision was really between KP and Thorpe, and in this case England got it right.

They don't care for test cricket.
Bunch of happy-go-lucky individuals with little semblance of team spirit

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

VTR wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Looking back the oldest vaguely recent retiring england test batsman I can find is Thorpe at 35 and change.

The tour after the Ashes is SA, so if Trott is still fit and firing I guess he wouldnt want to miss that either. Plus for England is they wouldnt have to pay his return flight

OK uneasy objection removed. The question then is does he go as an opener competing with Robson or a 3?

I seem to remember Thorpe being pretty much retired by England as they wanted to bring Bell in for the 2005 Ashes (and he ended up being a disaster). Thorpe was my favourite player, and its a shame he didn't get to play that series!

Other than that you would be looking at Alec Stewart who was 39 I think when he retired.

that's not quite right. Thorpe was actually retired for KP, who everyone (well the selectors and the captain at least) wanted to get in the team after his ODI showings. Bell had already made his place in the side after scoring runs in previous tests (admittedly against WI and Bangladesh I think). The decision was really between KP and Thorpe, and in this case England got it right.

His drinking was most likely the unspoken factor in all that. Alec Stewart doesnt count, you only had to be willing to turn up and not be called Ramprakash to get a game in his day. Look how many caps Salisbury got. Joking aside Id completely forgotten how old he was when he retired, last test he was actually 40. Whilst he had his ups and downs form wise and maybe the pressure on places and in weight of games wasnt so great 20 years ago in seems unthinkable that an England player could keep his spot and mind into his late 30s now especially with keeping and captaincy spells.

*Strauss was actually 35 when he got fed up with KP too

I'd welcome Trott back into the test side, or squad as least, but not in the ODI set up.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

VTR wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Looking back the oldest vaguely recent retiring england test batsman I can find is Thorpe at 35 and change.

The tour after the Ashes is SA, so if Trott is still fit and firing I guess he wouldnt want to miss that either. Plus for England is they wouldnt have to pay his return flight

OK uneasy objection removed. The question then is does he go as an opener competing with Robson or a 3?

I seem to remember Thorpe being pretty much retired by England as they wanted to bring Bell in for the 2005 Ashes (and he ended up being a disaster). Thorpe was my favourite player, and its a shame he didn't get to play that series!

Other than that you would be looking at Alec Stewart who was 39 I think when he retired.

that's not quite right. Thorpe was actually retired for KP, who everyone (well the selectors and the captain at least) wanted to get in the team after his ODI showings. Bell had already made his place in the side after scoring runs in previous tests (admittedly against WI and Bangladesh I think). The decision was really between KP and Thorpe, and in this case England got it right.

That is of course correct. In mitigation these are events ten years ago! I think I have got confused as I always thought Thorpe should have played ahead of Bell in that series. Bell made some easy runs against Bangladesh and got in the team. Its all history now, but I'd love to have seen Thorpe in that series and he would surely have done better than Bell.

We won, and Bell got some good experience, so it was in hindsight, and at the time, a good decision.

Bell was already in the side anyway, Thorpe got dropped for KP off the back of his ODI form in South Africa and the early summer. Turned out alright in the end, well until recently anyway.

Couple of interesting selections. Trott will bring some more experience to the side, in particular the top three. Haven't seen Rashid in a few years, only scorecards and stats but he seems to have improved.

I've really liked the look of Billings the little I've seen of him, albeit that's been in limited overs stuff and not first class

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11457608/England-may-rest-Joe-Root-for-West-Indies-tour.html

Root likely to be rested for the West Indies tour. Bloody stupid to even squeeze in a Test Series at this time - right between the World Cup and the county season.

Then a gruelling year which takes in seven Tests against New Zealand and Australia (why oh why another Ashes series?), and then ten ODIs and two T20s against the same opposition.

Quick break, then off to the UAE to play three Tests and five ODIs in October-ish.

Exhausted yet, lads? Hope not, cause then England are off to South Africa for four Tests and five ODIs. Just enough time to fit in another yawn-induced World T20.

Have the ECB heard of burnout, perchance?

Duty281 wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11457608/England-may-rest-Joe-Root-for-West-Indies-tour.html

Root likely to be rested for the West Indies tour. Bloody stupid to even squeeze in a Test Series at this time - right between the World Cup and the county season.

Then a gruelling year which takes in seven Tests against New Zealand and Australia (why oh why another Ashes series?), and then ten ODIs and two T20s against the same opposition.

Quick break, then off to the UAE to play three Tests and five ODIs in October-ish.

Exhausted yet, lads? Hope not, cause then England are off to South Africa for four Tests and five ODIs. Just enough time to fit in another yawn-induced World T20.

Have the ECB heard of burnout, perchance?

££££££££££££££££££££ > the actual thoughts for players and coaches.

Duty281 wrote: Have the ECB heard of burnout, perchance?

They probably have but don't mind overly much.  Tomorrow's problem.  Anyway, players burning out early creates more opportunities for other players to jump on the treadmill....

kingraf wrote:Would be a real pity if Gayle retired. You can probably understand though, and he's had a very good test career for Windies, slightly better than his ODI career.

That said, while this West Indian team would have lost 3-0 in South Africa had it not been for rain, they can (operative word) prove a challenge. Kraigg Brathwaite is coming along as a cricketer, and Marlon Samuels can be very good (if always one shot from a brain fade), and Darren Bravo has shown glimpses of living up to the Lara moniker. Jerome Taylor has been a very good pro before, Kemar Roach is brilliant when at full tilt (145-155) and Jason Holder, when he gets it together, can become one of the greats. Don't underestimate them

Given the recent spate of West Indian retirements from Test cricket, four-day cricket, and "indefinite breaks" taken, this could end up being the Test team for the first Test....

1) Kraigg Brathwaite
2) Devon Smith
3) Darren Bravo
4) Marlon Samuels
5) Shiv Chanderpaul
6) Jermaine Blackwood/Leon Johnson
7) Denesh Ramdin
8) Jerome Taylor
9) Kemar Roach
10) Suleimann Benn
11) Shannon Gabriel

I do like that WIndies seam attack - ShivFan does Jason Holder not get into the test side?

Rumours are Mark Wood from Durham makes the plane, along with Rashid and Trott

Squad announced 11:45 tomorrow

Squad announced:
Full England squad: A Cook, A Lyth, J Trott, G Ballance, J Root, I Bell, B Stokes, J Buttler, J Bairstow, A Rashid, L Plunkett, S Broad, J Anderson, C Jordan, M Wood, J Tredwell.


Mark Wood?

Mark would what?

I like Mark Wood. Made of glass though, long spells on flat pitches could break him. Only played 25 FC games at age 25. Was the best bowler on the Lions tour in SA. Would have had Kerrigan over Tredders, Tredwell can't get in Kent's 4-day team!

No Jimmy T.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11479693/Alastair-Cook-attacks-ECB-for-sacking-him-as-Englands-one-day-captain-and-claims-it-led-to-World-Cup-debacle.html

Biting the hand that feeds you Alastair - fine line you're tredding there

Olly wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11479693/Alastair-Cook-attacks-ECB-for-sacking-him-as-Englands-one-day-captain-and-claims-it-led-to-World-Cup-debacle.html

Biting the hand that feeds you Alastair - fine line you're tredding there

"KP can't come back after what he said in his book" - in the same article he's quoted slagging off the coach and selectors. Oh Lord

Rather one eyed if you think the two are in any way equilateral. Maybe you sent the wrong link? The one I'm reading has Cook saying, like anybody who was captain for three years with a view to captain in the world cup, that he would have liked to make the plane to the Antipodes. That's fair enough.

JDizzle wrote:

... Would have had Kerrigan over Tredders, Tredwell can't get in Kent's 4-day team!

... (

JD - even though Tredwell has only one Test cap and lost his Kent place last season to Riley, he's a wise head with a lot of county experience. With the uncapped Rashid in the squad, I suspect that won Tredders the vote over the younger Kerrigan. Something of a safe choice but that doesn't mean it's the wrong one.

A fairly sensible squad all things considered, with the injuries to Moeen and Woakes opening the door for a couple of more "wildcard" picks in Rashid and Wood. Does Rashid offer enough with the ball to be a genuine wicket-taking threat? He didn't used to (at test level), but talk is that he's improved a fair bit (haven't seen much of him TBH). The make-up of the side will be interesting too. Do they go with Lyth and Trott and play seven batsmen? Or go with the five bowlers (presuming that Cook, Ballance, Bell, Root and Buttler will take five of the top 6/7 spots, and that Bairstow is there mostly as back-up, all of which seems fairly likely). I think on what are usually fairly placid pitches I would favour the more attacking option. With Stokes seemingly back in some sort of form he can bat 7, surely? I also think the make-up of the squad (8 batsmen, 2 spinners, 6 seamers - if you count Stokes as a seamer) suggests the balance will be 6+1+4.

I'd be tempted to go with
Lyth
Cook
Ballance
Bell
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Jordan
Broad
Tredwell
Anderson

I can see Trott playing, maybe opening.

I don't want or think Tredwell should be anywhere near that squad, certainly not near the side itself. Guy doesn't even play for his county!

Olly wrote:I don't want or think Tredwell should be anywhere near that squad, certainly not near the side itself. Guy doesn't even play for his county!

Not many alternatives, well good ones.

Stella wrote:

Olly wrote:I don't want or think Tredwell should be anywhere near that squad, certainly not near the side itself. Guy doesn't even play for his county!

Not many alternatives, well good ones.

Well how about the guy who plays ahead of him for Kent, Adam Riley.

Other than that selection I agree with the squad - would like to see this team.

Cook
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Rashid
Jordan
Broad
Anderson

If it's seaming have Jordan as the extra seamer, if it's spinning guess it'll have to be Tredwell

I'd have Plunkett ahead of Jordan, who quite frankly doesn't look like he'll ever take many wickets.

I've never seen Riley play, so no comment on that one.

Stella wrote:I'd have Plunkett ahead of Jordan, who quite frankly doesn't look like he'll ever take many wickets.

I've never seen Riley play, so no comment on that one.

Must admit I'd forgotten about plunkett. It's a shame Woakes is injured as I'd have him in ahead of both

Shame Ali is injured as well, might not need Tredwell then.

The selectors and Tredwell are certainly getting a hard time over his selection. Quite possibly an unfair one too.

Tredders is no superstar but he's no mug either. As I've suggested before, he's an experienced campaigner who doesn't get ruffled and bowls with nous. A bit of a poor man's Swann maybe but we tend to forget how rich with ability Swann was.

An individual's character also comes into the mix when choosing any overseas sporting squad. That's particularly important in respect of a player who is likely to be on the fringes of the actual team and could end up on the sidelines for several weeks. I don't know Tredwell but suspect he won't let us down on that front.

The first England tour that I followed seriously, via radio and newspapers, was our capture of the Ashes down under in '70/71 under the captaincy of Ray Illingworth. Someone that Illingworth singled out for praise after the final Test of that series was left arm spinner Don Wilson. That was in spite of the late Wilson never playing even one Test in that series. Nonetheless, it was Illingworth's strong view that Wilson had been a ''good tourist'' whose support and selflessness had contributed to victory. Wilson was rewarded with a Test call up on the short tour of New Zealand that immediately followed. Just possibly that's a lesson from the past for today.

In response to your point earlier and your latest offering Guildford, I will start by saying I had completely forgotten that Ali was out injured!

I've been trying to think how Tredwell gets in the side; if we play a side with the make up of 3 seamers and 1 spinner, I think he has to play as you can't trust Rashid to play as part of a 4 man attack. If England choose to go with 5 bowlers, then I would be more inclined to go with Rashid + Broad, Anderson, Jordan/Plunkett/Stokes, Wood. I still think Kerrigan has been a little hard done by though, he was called up to the Test squad for a couple of matches in the summer and has been discarded since then to behind Tredwell and Ali. Getting the Jimmy Taylor treatment! Which is a shame, because I still believe that Kerrigan has a lot of potential.

I think, all in all, I would go: Cook, Trott, Ballance, Bell, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Rashid, Broad, Anderson, Wood. Lyth is a very hot and cold player, as can be seen by his run totals for summers, and I think Trott can offer a solider stop gap as an opener.

You can certainly argue Sam Robson has been harshly done by not being in the squad. He certainly didn't cement a place, but he hardly disgraced himself in the summer either.

Ultimately at some point we are going to have to pick an opening batsmen and stick with them for more than 6/7 games. Compton, Carberry and now Robson have all done alright (Root as well), and been discarded. If we don't back someone we're gonna end up with Trott and Cook coming towards the end of there careers and two inexperienced openers in tests.

Olly wrote:You can certainly argue Sam Robson has been harshly done by not being in the squad. He certainly didn't cement a place, but he hardly disgraced himself in the summer either.

Ultimately at some point we are going to have to pick an opening batsmen and stick with them for more than 6/7 games. Compton, Carberry and now Robson have all done alright (Root as well), and been discarded. If we don't back someone we're gonna end up with Trott and Cook coming towards the end of there careers and two inexperienced openers in tests.

Whilst I agree that we need to stick with someone that someone certaintly isn't Robson who I thought looked totally out of his depth at international level, personally I would have stayed with Compton originally. If the option is now Lyth thats a good thing.

Glad to see Plunkett back in the test side, bowled really well last year in the CC

4 wickets so far for Rashid today

Rashid was turning the leg-break square. I would say that the pitch must be extremely conducive to spin, though it should be also noted that Will Beer struggled to turn it a jot.

As to the opener - Trott is probably a better bet for this tour. While Lyth had a great summer (and has had some other decent ones) I just feel he is not quite good enough. His team-mate Alex Lees however could well be playing test cricket by this time next year.

Yeah, I saw a stat of Lyth at some point that he had made 1000 CC runs in 14, 12, 10, but hadn't passed something ridiculous like 650 in the other seasons. Very hot and cold, which is my worry about him.

Olly wrote:I do like that WIndies seam attack - ShivFan does Jason Holder not get into the test side?

He might...given how poorly Gabriel has been bowling in the PCL, and given how poorly Roach bowled at the World Cup. But the problem with Holder is that his pace isn't all that, and he doesn't swing the ball enough to be a serious wicket-taking option at Test cricket.

I'm awaiting the announcement of the squad with great trepidation....

Well Lyth has done his chances of partnering Cook in WI no harm. hundred up against the MCC - though helped by Onions pulling up lame and the rest of the MCC bowlers apparently bowling a pile of tosh.

I think the Tredwell selection is an easy one to criticise but also quite a smart thought process.

Bottom line with the spinners is that we really needed Monty to step up following Swanns retirement to give the likes of Kerrigan, Borthwick or Riley the chance to spend a bit of time as understudy in/around the squads and getting overs under their belt in the CC.

Given Panesars personal issues and flagging form the selectors then plumped for a seam dominated attack complimented by Mooen who was demanding attention for his batting alone. This was a strategy that paid of over the summer with Moeen taking wickets and learning how to hold an end down much better at the same time.

Now with Mooen injured I think they've clearly decided to give themselves the option of once again going with a seam dominated attack complimented by a batsmen who can bowl spin - Rashid. Along with the traditional option for a country who can't find an outstanding spinner of picking a guy who wont let you down - Tredwell. Rather than throwing a youngsters in at the deep end and risking setting their development back.

Is it ideal no. Given circumstances however I don't feel it's an appalling selection by an means.

1.Cook
2.Lyth
3.Ballance
4.Bell
5.Root
6.Rashid
7.Buttler (wk)
8.Stokes
9.Broad or Jordan
10.Plunkett
11.Anderson

If Broad is only going to be bowling around 80 mph then I'd drop him to give him a kick up the backside!