England Fullback's

First topic message reminder :

Am I the only England fan a bit concerned that we haven't seen anyone else play 15 for England in a long while? I accept that Mike Brown is nailed on for the 15 shirt for the World Cup but were only one injury away from having Jack Nowell or Anthony Watson thrown into the deep end playing a position for England Senior's for the first time.

I heard a pod-cast with Lancaster where he said that if Alex Goode plays then the whole shape of the back line has to change dramatically as he would become the second distributor which would mean we would need two ball carrying centre's. If Twelvetrees or Slade ( I think they are in direct competition for a place in the 15/23) are also on the pitch then suddenly we would look very underpowered ball in hand

so I assume that either Watson or Nowell would go to 15 if Goode is not on the bench (which he hasn't been for a while)

Maybe Lancaster will drop Brown for the Italy game????

There is always Cipriani.

Pace, goal kicking, ball to hand kicking.... he has it all. Question mark over his tackling but he's no Quade Cooper in that respect.

Why I think he's a great bench option.

Of course full backs do very little tackling nowadays. Always felt FB was Cups best position. He though disagrees suggested by turning down Leicester's offer, seeing him as an FB, and taking Sale's who wanted a 10.

Cips did some of his best work for Wasps from 15

beshocked wrote:Still believe Goode needs to work with Margot Wells like Brown - she's given a bit of extra oomph.

I can't understand why he hasn't. Surely it's got to be worth a go? If he could just get half a yard more pace, and, in doing so, build some power, you'd think he would strengthen his international credentials considerably.

LondonTiger wrote:Of course full backs do very little tackling nowadays. Always felt FB was Cups best position. He though disagrees suggested by turning down Leicester's offer, seeing him as an FB, and taking Sale's who wanted a 10.

I was going to challenge this assertion then checked and apparently Brown wasnt called upon to make a single tackle in the game last weekend, and Halfpenny 2. So I think its a pretty valid point that full back is a safer place to try and hide a weak tackler these days than fly half is.
That said I dont think playing Cips there is realistic other than as emergency cover if they run out of back 3 players during a game. He's been a specialist 10 for far too long now.

Englands current 23 has a lot of flexibility with Twelvetrees covering centers and FH, Watson and Nowell the whole back 3.


As for Goode coming in and that requiring two running centers...thats what England played at the weekend. If anything at times they missed Goode coming in to help out Ford who had no kicker outside him which led to the charge downs.
Sure it would be nice to have Foden as the injury cover for Brown, but whoever it was England would miss their best performer of the last couple of years.

Worry about it when he is injured. Im more concerned about their continued inability to have a center pairing who can be justified in getting 3 games in a row together or stay fit if they do.

yappysnap wrote:Cips did some of his best work for Wasps from 15

That was also before a that horrible ankle injury robbed him of a fair bit of pace, a lot of time on the pitch and the form which had allowed his career to build such momentum early on.

I'm not saying he isn't fast now, because for a 10 he definitely is. He can still offer a real running threat from 10 due to his acceleration. However when he burst into the game he was genuinely rapid. He could probably have challenged most wingers for pace, especially over the first 40m when breaks are made and capitalised on. This pace is also what made him so good at FB early in his career, hence I'd be uncertain if he could replicate it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMnaPR3DhLk

This try was after both of his leg breakages and he still looks pretty rapid. I haven't seen him really pin his ears back and run for a while so don't know if he's lost any pace since then though.

I wouldn't have him at full-back anyway.

Yep I thought of that try immediately after my post but also can't remember him doing anything like that again recently.

When he first burst into the Wasps side in 2007 he looked quicker than Sackey or Lewsey in their back three however. I've just always struggled to convince myself he has had that kind of pace since the leg breaks.

thomh wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMnaPR3DhLk

This try was after both of his leg breakages and he still looks pretty rapid. I haven't seen him really pin his ears back and run for a while so don't know if he's lost any pace since then though.

I wouldn't have him at full-back anyway.

He just seemed to put on the burners to hit the gap and then the afterburners to go through it. Very impessive.

I think Ludik not being the quickest full back around around makes Cips look quicker than he actually is. He's certainly pretty quick in 10 terms but nothing too impressive these days.

It's his tackling, lateral running and goal kicking that I worry about.

Don't worry Sgt...Hammersley is on his way..

Hammersley has a fantastic future, I'm sure of that. He needs to sharpen up his decision making and kicking but he has some real class about him. I could see him getting capped post WC.

Nick Abendanon deserves another chance with the Saxons at least, He is currently in great form for Clermont

Not an option with him in France TH

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hammersley has a fantastic future, I'm sure of that. He needs to sharpen up his decision making and kicking but he has some real class about him. I could see him getting capped post WC.

Before or after he joins Saints?

Funnily enough LT, I was just saying the other day that we need fullback cover for Foden.............................

thomh wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMnaPR3DhLk

This try was after both of his leg breakages and he still looks pretty rapid. I haven't seen him really pin his ears back and run for a while so don't know if he's lost any pace since then though.

I wouldn't have him at full-back anyway.

I swear that's lee Evans throwing the ball in at line out time.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not an option with him in France TH

But that's a self imposed thing that could be overturned, as it was for Wilkinson.

Given they didnt overturn it for Armitage ( turns out that was just as well!) its hugely unlikely that Lancaster would for a player he didnt want to pick when he was based in England when he has 4 fit players in his squad listed as fullbacks, plus Penell who played for the Saxons. It would take a pretty epic injury crisis to reach the level of "exceptional circumstances" required to need to break the rule.

Going back to Wilkinson there was a much bigger dearth of talent at fly half to pick from plus injuries, and he was at the time still the greatest ever player (if you disregard all the better ones) on reputation, and actually playing like it for his club.

I think theres more chance of seeing Tait back for England than there is Abendanon, and that still somewhere between jack and ship.


Mind I wouldnt have called Lancaster back tracking on Easter.

The overseas policy is in place and won't be overturned anytime soon, Wilkinson moved prior to this agreement.

Had Bendy stayed with Bath would he have been with the England squad by now?

Who's to know, I'd probably say no if I was to take a punt.

Bendy was very good at hitting form between squad selections, but making huge, high profile man sausage-ups just before they were due to be named. As Foden is only FB injured, there is no reason to believe that Bomber would have selected him for these squads.

The players chosen ahead of Abendanon included Tait, Armitage and Foden, so it's not as if there was a major injustice. There was that peculiar game in 2009 with Monye at full back after Armitage was injured, which would have annoyed a specialist, but Foden was next in line at that time.

Abendanon? England?
Doubtful. Sooner or later he would run into a Tuilagi and that would be very bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzwEN2ZxlU4

To be fair to him, he still got up each time

A bit prophetic. Hope Brown is ok.

If Brown is forced to sit out the next game Watson at FB, JJ on the wing and Twelvetrees starting?
Seemed to work pretty well at the end of that game, although its hard to judge solely on that basis.

Gooseberry wrote:If Brown is forced to sit out the next game Watson at FB, JJ on the wing and Twelvetrees starting?
Seemed to work pretty well at  the end of that game, although its hard to judge solely on that basis.

True and at least we'll have a week of training using those combinations where we didn't have that for today

No Twelvetrees for me.

10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell
13 Joseph
14 Nowell / Wade / Ashton - Whoever is in the squad or can be called up
15 Watson

I though 36 played very well. Made a lot more passes than Burrell did

He did pass a lot more..but strictly speaking that is meaningless.

Were they passes that led to attacking opportunities...were they simply passing along the line (which quite a few were and the much maligned Barritt can do that well)....were they hospital passes (one defo was today)

He doesn't read the game well.

My argument has always been he has the skills...he should be the perfect 12...but he doesn't have the top two inches that a Greenwood or a Horan or even a half decent international 12 does have.

Burrell was just as bad as Twelvetrees has been. Poor passing, missing tackles, etc.

Don't disagree Hammer...I think our centres are a headache.

36 can also kick, which was a major issue against Wales. England were noticeably more comfortable under pressure having the second option.
Nowell or Wade in is a possibility, but leaves England incredibly short of experience in the back 3. Theres also the issue of Mays place supposedly being under pressure.

There are options. Jospeh as a wing makes Tuilagis return to the side easier to accomodate come world cup.

Should Manu come straight back in though? Joseph is a 13...he has shown more attacking flair and creativity in his two games than Manu has in a long time.

I think Manu should come back as a sub, but not starting.

Manu hasnt played for a long time. Last England games were vs the AB's. JJ hasnt done a lot to be honest, but when he has seen half a chance he has done brilliant work

Fullback position sorted after today.