Irish centres, wings and fullbacks

Below is the list of players in the picture per outside back position:

Fullbacks

Kearney
Jones

Inside centre

D'arcy
Marshall

Outside centre

O'Driscoll
Henshaw
Cave

Wingers

Bowe (injured)
Earls (injured)
Fitzgerald
Zebo
Gilroy
McFadden
Trimble
Kearney

Both centre positions and fullback are farely threadbare in terms of depth but yet by contrast there is a surplus of wingers, where at least 8 players have been capped in recent seasons more than once.

Payne is seen as a great white hope at centre and maybe fullback but why have Ireland produced so few players in these positions over the past few years?

A number of the wings are actually converted centres - Trimble, Earls, McFadden - and the incumbent inside centre is a converted winger.

Have Ireland, and the provinces been too quick to shunt players into the wide channels rather than let them develop in midfield or the back?

Have successive managers been afraid to rotate big name players like O'Driscoll and Kearney for big games and take risks on less experienced players?      

Skill wise the difference between the 3/4 positions is fairly similar, the difference being that perhaps the winger has less options to weigh up and more time and space to make decisions than his inside men or 15. A wing can sometimes get away with being a less rounded player, although less so these days.

Other nations seem to be quite comfortable moving players about the backline - for example North, Davies, even Halfpenny for Wales. Falou, O'Connor for Australia.

Is the issue that our players are not developing core skills at lower levels to move positions or is it that at professional level coaches are too conservative?

Regarding versatility:

For me both Trimble and Earls were always going to be better as wings than centres
McFadden I am not so sure about but with D'Arcy and BOD at Leinster you can understand why he has been moved to the wing
Zebo and to a lesser extent Gilroy can play 15
Bowe could play 13 but again with BOD there Ireland have never had the need

Ireland have Payne, Henshaw and Olding coming through, who can play in multiple positions, so it will be interesting to see how they are handled

I believe its got a lot to do with A lack of talent, underage coaching and a lack of opportunities for young players.


If you look at the provinces, since BOD and D'Arcy came along there's been no one to challenge them! Only in the last year or so has Marshall come along. Munster and Leinster have been brutally poor in developing centres. Ulster have developed some talent there recently and so have Connacht.


So why have Leinster and munster failed. It must be down to underage coaching. Leinster have so many players going through there system but they've not produced any centres of note in a decade or more. They've all been small renters too which gives you an insight into the thinking of coaches at the time.


Now the problem is opportunities. Chris Farrell in ulster cannot get a game. Dineen and Bohane in Munster are similar. Henshaw has only just moved into the centre in Connacht and that's his natural position. In Ireland there is a seniority type of player selection process.


Having said all of that, that is the past now. Last years U20 team had a glut of centres AND they came in all shapes and sizes. Olding and Henshaw were left out of that squad but you had Rory Scannell, Daly and Tom Farrell who all looked very good. On the wings you had sweetnam and Olding who looked very good and at 15 Leader who is playing for Connacht now. That U20 team outplayed Australia and for long periods NZ.


So the future is bright. Its just a case of who will make the breakthrough and when. One or two others coming along before the world cup would be ideal.

Yeah I agree Prof, but this highlights the point - we do see good players in these positions at U-20s level but then they get moved.

Michael Allen is another - came up through the grade at centre, now breaking through at senior level at wing at Ulster.

Nelson, a natural full back - getting more chances on the wing.

It seems the culture, rightly or wrongly, is that if a player has a weakness that may be exposed in his preferred position, rather than giving him time to improve and work on it, he is shunted to a position where said weakness(es) is less likely to have an impact - i.e usually the wing.

Thats the downside of the provinces' success. They won't allow much development and won't throw players in to crunch matches until the players have built up experience. Building up experience is hard to do if you're not getting much opportunity to. So its a vicious circle in a way.

I think we have excellent depth at full back, the problem being that Kearney will never be dropped.

Zebo, Earls, and Henshaw have all looked really good when played there.

I don't think you can say you have depth in a position where there is no competition for the place.

Its all very well saying player X can play there or player Y looked good one time but unless there is genuine debate about who will play then that isn't real depth imo.

Well if it isn't depth, I don't know what you call it.

All I'm saying is that if Kearney got injured, any one of Henshaw, Zebo, or Earls would be a fine substitution. I would also start any of those 3 ahead of Kearney atm.

Actually add Kearney jr. to that list as well.

When was the last time Kearney was dropped for the starting XV?

gleesonisgod wrote:Well if it isn't depth, I don't know what you call it.

All I'm saying is that if Kearney got injured, any one of Henshaw, Zebo, or Earls would be a fine substitution. I would also start any of those 3 ahead of Kearney atm.

Actually add Kearney jr. to that list as well.

When did Earls or Zebo last play fullback,I remember Zebo having an okay game against S.A. once but haven't seen him play there since.Kearney has been in great form since November,looking like he's getting back to his best so only Henshaw would be close to challenging him and he has hardly played fullback this year either.Jones is the only real alternative until Payne qualifies and maybe Leader at Connacht can develop.

Do New Zealand lack depth at open side because McCaw is above the rest, or do they have depth because they have a number of other excellent open side flankers. I'd say the latter.

We have many good young players at FB, centre, and wing but there's no one everyone is talking about as the next BOD or Darcy. Hence we keep talking around and around. I think the clues to this weeks team are in the All Blacks team.

I'm not sold on Zebo (although there sure are a lot of fans out there) and I'm not sure Schmidt is either. Looks from outside that Schmidt is looking for system smart players rather than sizzle.

I think or strongest unit in the team is either the wings and backrow. This is because we have people pushing for places and horses for courses.
We don't have much at scrum half. The fact that Red & boss are the age they are yet still certs says how weak we are at scrum half.

Regards the backs we need a less structured backline like our backrow as it allows more challanging for places and less disruption

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:Well if it isn't depth, I don't know what you call it.

All I'm saying is that if Kearney got injured, any one of Henshaw, Zebo, or Earls would be a fine substitution. I would also start any of those 3 ahead of Kearney atm.

Actually add Kearney jr. to that list as well.

When did Earls or Zebo last play fullback,I remember Zebo having an okay game against S.A. once but haven't seen him play there since.Kearney has been in great form since November,looking like he's getting back to his best so only Henshaw would be close to challenging him and he has hardly played fullback this year either.Jones is the only real alternative until Payne qualifies and maybe Leader at Connacht can develop.

Zebo was excellent at full back that time we trashed Argentina. Last time I remember Earls playing full back was when we hammered England at the Aviva and he was excellent and I'm sure if they were to play full back again they would both be excellent again. However, it doesn't matter as Kearney will never be dropped, and, as you mentioned, Henshaw is next in line for the throne.


I don't think Kearney has ever been dropped since he started playing full back for Ireland after his stint on the wing, around 08/09.

South Africa are the most difficult team to play against for any full back and Zebo was very convincing against them. Earls was great against England, give him space and he will exploit it. But neither player has played full back since and play on the wing for their provinces, so no way should they be in line to start big games at full back for Ireland unless this changes.

Kearney needs competition but all we have is Felix Jones and he's not international class.

gleesonisgod wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:Well if it isn't depth, I don't know what you call it.

All I'm saying is that if Kearney got injured, any one of Henshaw, Zebo, or Earls would be a fine substitution. I would also start any of those 3 ahead of Kearney atm.

Actually add Kearney jr. to that list as well.

When did Earls or Zebo last play fullback,I remember Zebo having an okay game against S.A. once but haven't seen him play there since.Kearney has been in great form since November,looking like he's getting back to his best so only Henshaw would be close to challenging him and he has hardly played fullback this year either.Jones is the only real alternative until Payne qualifies and maybe Leader at Connacht can develop.

Zebo was excellent at full back that time we trashed Argentina. Last time I remember Earls playing full back was when we hammered England at the Aviva and he was excellent and I'm sure if they were to play full back again they would both be excellent again. However, it doesn't matter as Kearney will never be dropped, and, as you mentioned, Henshaw is next in line for the throne.


I don't think Kearney has ever been dropped since he started playing full back for Ireland after his stint on the wing, around 08/09.

Earls isn't good enough to be in the 23 let alone at start at full back. Zebo on the other hand is a great player and could potentially challenge for the spot but needs a consistent run of games there.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:Well if it isn't depth, I don't know what you call it.

All I'm saying is that if Kearney got injured, any one of Henshaw, Zebo, or Earls would be a fine substitution. I would also start any of those 3 ahead of Kearney atm.

Actually add Kearney jr. to that list as well.

When did Earls or Zebo last play fullback,I remember Zebo having an okay game against S.A. once but haven't seen him play there since.Kearney has been in great form since November,looking like he's getting back to his best so only Henshaw would be close to challenging him and he has hardly played fullback this year either.Jones is the only real alternative until Payne qualifies and maybe Leader at Connacht can develop.

Zebo was excellent at full back that time we trashed Argentina. Last time I remember Earls playing full back was when we hammered England at the Aviva and he was excellent and I'm sure if they were to play full back again they would both be excellent again. However, it doesn't matter as Kearney will never be dropped, and, as you mentioned, Henshaw is next in line for the throne.


I don't think Kearney has ever been dropped since he started playing full back for Ireland after his stint on the wing, around 08/09.

Earls isn't good enough to be in the 23 let alone at start at full back. Zebo on the other hand is a great player and could potentially challenge for the spot but needs a consistent run of games there.

  foot in mouth..Earls has been excellent this year..nuff said. Cant wait to see Joes 'system' at the weekend. Will it be the Aus or NZ (first half) ones though

In terms of depth I would say it has been well nigh impossible to get a look in at Leinster due to the incumbents and bear in mind the last guy to wear 13 to any level has had to retire early. Couple that with the failed Earls experiment at Munster/Ireland and the fact we were cruelly robbed of Nevin Spence I would argue we produce our fair share.

BOD
D'arce
O'Malley
McFadden
Spence
Cave
Marshall
Olding
Henshaw

Not a bad list

Earls is over rated IMO. Rugby equivalent of a flat track bully. Seems to always suffer against the better teams.

And while Zebo shows potential I don't think he's done enough at the highest level to earn all these plaudits I'm seeing. Maybe in time. If he's ever fit. Lots glam, socks down etc

Agree on both accounts Blanco.

Stand I've zero doubt Spence would have been top class ....RIP.

Anyone been keeping an eye on Whitten at Exeter?

Yep and impresses when he plays.

You need to be really special though to make the Irish squad when playing outside Ireland
Thats not Whitten

Blanko wrote:Earls is over rated IMO. Rugby equivalent of a flat track bully. Seems to always suffer against the better teams.

And while Zebo shows potential I don't think he's done enough at the highest level to earn all these plaudits I'm seeing. Maybe in time. If he's ever fit. Lots glam, socks down etc

Yeah you wouldnt want two proven try scorers in the team.....oh well...

I would say it's down to a lack of opportunities more than anything. As has been said, Leinster have had 12 and 13 sown up for years and Munster relied on foreigners for a number of seasons.

There are several players with the potential to flourish if given the opportunity at 12 or 13. Wasn't ODriscoll and outhalf in school and only moved to centre in college? I think D'Arcy moved even later - fullback in school and only began playing centre for Leinster in 2003 when BOD was injured.