Player Signing for Clubs Before The Seasons are Half Over

After reading some of the posts in the Dan Carter thread, it struck me how many players are signing for new teams and the NH season is not yet half over.  The SH Super Rugby season has not even started.  Yet, many players are signing post-RWC contracts.  I know this is the system, but this year it seems like a lot more players are doing it.  

To me this creates some problems:
Conflict of Interest - If a player has already signed a new post-RWC contract, how will they perform finishing up their existing contracts?  Trying to avoid injury?  
Potential disruption to the new teams - Will players currently on the new team playing the same position as the newly signed player play the same? Do something unfortunate and and cause disruption?  Try to score 10 point tries to show off for potential new clubs for them?  

I would prefer to see a system where players cannot sign a new contract until the current one has expired.  

What do you think?

Doc - you do not have to leave your job before looking for a new one, why should rugby players?

LondonTiger wrote:Doc - you do not have to leave your job before looking for a new one, why should rugby players?

Most people's notice periods are not a year long to be fair.

It goes both ways though, the club might feel like not selecting the player who is due to leave and instead give more game time to a younger or academy player or whoever is due to replace him.

IronMike wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Doc - you do not have to leave your job before looking for a new one, why should rugby players?

Most people's notice periods are not a year long to be fair.

It goes both ways though, the club might feel like not selecting the player who is due to leave and instead give more game time to a younger or academy player or whoever is due to replace him.

This is my point. The time before the new contract is due to start seems excessive to me. In American sport players cannot sign with other teams until their season is over. This system works for them because their off-seasons are longer than in Rugby. But to sign a contract for almost one year from now seems too long for me.

Like you said as well, its a bit of a risk from the club they're moving to as well, they don't know what kind of condition they'll be in by the end of a season.

It is only become significant now because of players on contracts overseas returning
to qualify for RWC and Olympics.

It happens most just before 2011 in Nz virtually every fringe 5/8,prop,and wing
moved overseas.

Presumeably all these contracts have insurance and out clauses,reasons for moving
are the usual.

Cashing in on there status,unable to regularly crack first team at Super or Test level.

My self have feelings about players using test sides as a matter of convenience 3 years
for cash.Home for the RWC then back abroad for cash again makes it a bit of a mockery.

emack2 wrote:It is only become significant now because of players on contracts overseas returning
to qualify for RWC and Olympics.

It happens most just before 2011 in Nz virtually every fringe 5/8,prop,and wing
moved overseas.

Presumeably all these contracts have insurance and out clauses,reasons for moving
are the usual.

Cashing in on there status,unable to regularly crack first team at Super or Test level.

My self have feelings about players using test sides as a matter of convenience 3 years
for cash.Home for the RWC then back abroad for cash again makes it a bit of a mockery.

Its all about self preservation though. 5 years from now those choices won't be there and fans will have jumped on to the same comments about the latest 'in' players. What will all those guys be doing then? Probably wishing they'd gone for the bucks a lot more than they did.

Never seen the point in signing NZ 'has beens' that are taking up the place of an up and coming youngster. Welsh rugby survived without there cheap and tacky signings before the pro era they can survive without them now. English football wonders why they can not win the world cup when the vast majority of premier football is foreign based.
We prove year to year that Welsh rugby is on the cusp of great things, home grown players ONLY will make the advances not some Kiwi has been or Kiwi never been taking up a position.

And yet it continues to happen

rainbow-warrior wrote:Never seen the point in signing NZ 'has beens' that are taking up the place of an up and coming youngster.  Welsh rugby survived without there cheap and tacky signings before the pro era they can survive without them now.  English football wonders why they can not win the world cup when the vast majority of premier football is foreign based.  
We prove year to year that Welsh rugby is on the cusp of great things, home grown players ONLY will make the advances not some Kiwi has been or Kiwi never been taking up a position.

Well we get it here with basketball, League and other sports. It appeals more to fans to watch presumably higher quality players, and the local sides winning so rather than refusing them because of some principle, better to kep them out through having better options.

Something that may be a factor is how much the players are going to put into their games at the RWC just before their lucrative new contracts kick in - is Carter going to be thinking of winning the RWC or about the £1 million contract he's taking up straight afterwards?

Irish Londoner wrote:Something that may be a factor is how much the players are going to put into their games at the RWC just before their lucrative new contracts kick in - is Carter going to be thinking of winning the RWC or about the £1 million contract he's taking up straight afterwards?

Depends on how much of that contract is guaranteed I suppose.

Paying for something that doesn't arrive until six, seven or 12 months down the line is always going to be a gamble.  The money men take the gamble and therefore are aware of the risks.  They'll cover some of them with the clauses in contracts that don't get into the public eye.  Racing will have placed some protection for themselves in case Carter picks up a serious long term injury or even has to end his career before turning up.

As for Carter.............. relaxing and keeping out of trouble until his new lucrative contract kicks in?  With a WC on his agenda? His agent will have had his own protections written into any contract too.  As in he'll have insisted that Racing don't 'expect' him to take it easy and 'underplay' himself through the next months to stay fit and uninjured.  So if Carter tries hard at the WC (and undoubtedly he will if picked) and picks up an injury, I'd guess that if Racing tried to get out of the signed contract they'd be reminded of the price to be paid.  Racing will pay less if Carter arrives with an extended lay off injury... but they'll pay a lot more if they try to tear the contract up completely.

Biltong wrote:And yet it continues to happen

Let's hope not for long.

Taylorman wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Never seen the point in signing NZ 'has beens' that are taking up the place of an up and coming youngster.  Welsh rugby survived without there cheap and tacky signings before the pro era they can survive without them now.  English football wonders why they can not win the world cup when the vast majority of premier football is foreign based.  
We prove year to year that Welsh rugby is on the cusp of great things, home grown players ONLY will make the advances not some Kiwi has been or Kiwi never been taking up a position.

Well we get it here with basketball, League and other sports. It appeals more to fans to watch presumably higher quality players, and the local sides winning so rather than refusing them because of some principle, better to kep them out through having better options.

Never read anything much about these players setting the place on fire, I am certain that more people in Wales would attend if the clubs were filled with local talent.

That's why I mentioned the English football thing, however, it must hurt even more when your best basketball player refused to play for NZ, for whatever excuse. Happened with Wales and Ryan Giggs.

The conflict of interest issue is a tough one. Imagine a scenario where your current team meets your "new" team in the play off for the Rugby Champions Cup Place, then you have the stoppage time conversion to win the game and hence condemn yourself to the Challenge Cup the following season!
As others have said though, you've got to look after yourself and get a contract in lace asap as with any other industry, and that includes securing your future at a mutually agreed time for all 3 parties.

It's great that DC and Nonu have made up their minds so early or have been prompted to by the NZRU. Gives AB selectors a chance to see if their heart is still in NZ rugby before the RWC squad is selected. Unlike in 2007 when players were too busy counting their future pay packets to concentrate on winning important games. Tew is a genius for throwing a little bit of disruption back in NH faces. Even though it's not the intention. Anyone crying foul about the disruption it causes to NH club teams by making these announcements so early should consider the disruption this exodus of players from the SH causes to our unions as a whole (not just clubs).

I see no problems with an Auckland Blues player "talking to" a Heiniken cup team, with intentions of putting together a player contract for any time into the future.

However I would think that John Kirwin would be utterly pizzed off if an Auckland Blues player began negotiations with another Super xv franchise half way through a season. Anyway I thought there are Super xv protocols on this point?

Merry Christmas everyone.

A lot off talk moaning about the salary cap from clubs,in practical terms means nothing.

When Boudjalais of all people moans about Racing exceeding it to sign DC when his
own side is never out of the news with a new signing.

Talk of Kiwi past its or never weres taking Wales and other places from there Test squads
is mis guided.BEFORE they can come they have to be offered a contract,Cash over the
chance to be an All Black which is still a big lure for the hopefuls.

There are many more Sa players in NH and Japan because THEY are still eligible for
the Boks.

It comes down to the Soccer pattern club before Country,those that can afford it will
those that can`t?

South Africa has had more players overseas before we started selecting overseas Boks

I am rally not convinced that even from a commercial point of view importing ageing has beens from SH is a good idea. It is certainly not a great idea from a rugby viewpoint. I want to see young English players develop. I am sure Irish, Scots and Welsh want to see young native players develop. Edinburgh went down the SH import blind alley and much good it has done them!

Yep, and the European Champions are filled with them.

Like it or not most of the successful clubs have many SH imports ,top14 arguably THE
best league.Is full of them but it hasn't helped France much the soccer parallel of
many imports at club level and RWC 66

emack2 wrote:Like it or not most of the successful clubs have many SH imports ,top14 arguably THE
best league.Is full of them but it hasn't helped France much the soccer parallel of
many imports at club level and RWC 66

No they are not.

Trouble is rugby fans may want to see the next icon playing in his early days, but if you want to attract a casual fan, you need to sign the global names who have just played in the World Cup. These clubs know that the rugby fan will follow anyway, but to attract the casual fan they need world cup stars and names the casual fan knows.

Having studied economics at uni. I have no problems with English clubs signing SH stars, they are commercial entities and will weigh up the pros and cons of each signing. If home grown players can't make it through, that says something about the coaching of our young players. Protecting our homegrown players with regulation (eg quotas) would protect the inefficiencies in our youth coaching, which would need to be addressed more urgently.

Our lack of ability to bring through a 12 in the last 10 years has therefore resulted in clubs bringing in imports to fill the gaps. The imports haven't stopped a generation of talented 12s coming through (if you think they have, please name the 12s).

On the original point, rugby contracts aren't comparable to my contract as I'm on a permanent contract with a notice period and they are on fixed term contracts. If they have 12 months on their contract, they'd be silly not to at least start lining up their next move. I know in football you can't officially start talking to clubs until 6 months before the end of your contract without your clubs permission, but I don't doubt that agents are working behind the scenes as soon as you enter your final year.

I guess it does bring up complications with loyalty and priority, but from a players' perspective this is their career and they only get a short one. If they sign a contract now then get dropped by their franchise in the Super Rugby season they may miss the World Cup, but that's the chance they take.

Watching the Saints v Quins game Healy mentioned how well the Saints coaches have really developed Samu Manoa in his 4 years with them (who is off to France in the summer.)

Whats the odds that they may have already singled out one or two others from over there |in the US who failed the NFL draft. Amazing athletes, huge...just need training by the right coaches, which saints have.

Wayne Smith is an absolute legend. He says a speech by Roy Keane about not whoring ones self out for money alone struck a nerve....

"It was former Manchester United defensive midfielder, now Ireland assistant manager, Roy Keane who struck a nerve with his speech to the All Blacks in 2008 about the significance of club and country.

Speaking after the fallout from the All Blacks' shock quarter-final exit at the 2007 World Cup, Keane told the team and management if they ever left they must visualise the jersey they might pull over their head.

Keane said most of the time it was not the right one and they would forever wish they were still in the jersey they now wore.

"I took that on board and every decision I make is based on that," Smith said.

"My head can turn like anyone else when it comes to money but, ultimately, I've come to understand that's not what's going to make you happy.

"The jerseys I generally want to pull over my head are in New Zealand - they've been the Crusaders, Chiefs and All Blacks and I've been happy with those decisions.

"They weren't made for money," Smith said. "They were made for love and passion. I'll try and stick to that for the rest of my life".

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/64495853/Wayne-Smith-I-won-t-coach-against-sides-I-love

rainbow-warrior wrote:

emack2 wrote:Like it or not most of the successful clubs have many SH imports ,top14 arguably THE
best league.Is full of them but it hasn't helped France much the soccer parallel of
many imports at club level and RWC 66

No they are not.

When the greatest ever Irish and French teams were at their pinnacle they were made of mostly home grown talent. Toulon were still in division 2 at the time.

Regardless of what we think, the proof is in the fact that there are tons of SH players contracted in Europe and Japan.

Biltong wrote:Regardless of what we think, the proof is in the fact that there are tons of SH players contracted in Europe and Japan.

Can it get you success? Possibly in the likes of Japan where there is next to no infrastructure (though I accept they have been addressing this).

In Toulon's case, yeah it seems so, and all the other French teams are trying to keep up. Is it sustainable? I sincerely doubt it. Toulon have no academy. Tigers, Leinster and Toulouse do - 3 of THE MOST successful teams in Europe.

The Saint wrote:

Biltong wrote:Regardless of what we think, the proof is in the fact that there are tons of SH players contracted in Europe and Japan.

Can it get you success? Possibly in the likes of Japan where there is next to no infrastructure (though I accept they have been addressing this).

In Toulon's case, yeah it seems so, and all the other French teams are trying to keep up. Is it sustainable? I sincerely doubt it. Toulon have no academy. Tigers, Leinster and Toulouse do - 3 of THE MOST successful teams in Europe.

Regardless of the results history suggests it is not only sustainable but getting worse, the numbers of SH players aren't dwindling, and with it more and more SH players are beginning to qualify for European nations.

You can't argue that, it is the reality.

To be fair I think unions would prefer having as much notice as possible.

If the Stormers for instance were to lose Eben Etzebeth they would need as much time as possible to get in alternative plans to replace him. I don't think its a case where their would be a conflict of interest given the SH and NH games are separated... and it won't conflict their RWC chances given its a one off tournament.