WRU are making a start with the dual contracts

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:18 am

It has been announced last night that Dan Lydiate will be the first player offered a dual contract and a further 12 to be offered this week, with Taulupe Faletau, Hallam Amos and Tyler Morgan, being amongst others announced by the Dragons, so that leaves another 8 to be offered and sorted within the next few weeks, another batch will then be sorted in December.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30105638

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:44 am

It looks to me that they're trying to get an even number at each region. Just a guess, but I wouldn't have had Amos and Tyler Morgan down as candidates, so my only conclusion is that the 3 dragons will be joined by 3 at the other regions too. Otherwise it might have kicked off in terms of fairness, equality, etc.

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:49 am

Griff, I think it looks as though they are trying to keep the young tallent in Wales for the future.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:52 am

Do we know who the others are yet? I imagined it would have been mainly the current internationals - not the older ones like Jenkins, Adam Jones, etc, but some of the younger ones who are already well established like Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Webb, etc.

I guess it's difficult - we want to keep the youngsters but if we don't offer these contracts to the 'middle' players then they'll probably be snapped up and shipped overseas too!

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:54 am

Looking at that list on BBC, if only Anscombe is suggested for the Blues, and Warburton is already on one, then I guess that suggests that Lydiate is off to the Blues???

by GavinDragon Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:56 am

cory allen?

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:58 am

I guess players like AWJ are already on big contracts so perhaps they will not be offered one until their current contract is up for renewal.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:I guess players like AWJ are already on big contracts so perhaps they will not be offered one until their current contract is up for renewal.

That makes sense. How long do these central contracts last? Is there a fixed period? Or just rolling?

So many questions!

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:15 am

GavinDragon wrote:cory allen?

Possibly, but Lydiate is definitely getting one by the looks of it so that would make 13 in total (however, I'm assuming that they are having 3 at each -big assumption!)

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:22 am

I can see the Blues ending up with Sam, Anscombe and Corry Allen. I don't want to speculate on Lyds and personally i don't think we need him. But i can see that Gats would like Sam and Lyds playing together at regional level.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:22 am

Reports say Lydiate is off to the Os on a DC.

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:26 am

Gatland has said that it is up to the players if they want to take these contracts or not, so I would think there would be some serious stipulations within these contracts, like how much game time you are allowed, where you play, who you play for e.c.t

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:33 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Reports say Lydiate is off to the Os on a DC.

Suggests he might be. And there is speculation. But reading Gats latest interview he says talks have stalled over Lydiate because they can't find any common ground with the regions. Not a done deal yet.

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:35 am

Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Reports say Lydiate is off to the Os on a DC.

Suggests he might be. And there is speculation. But reading Gats latest interview he says talks have stalled over Lydiate because they can't find any common ground with the regions. Not a done deal yet.

I do not think that the regions want Lydiate on the WRU's terms. If any take him they would want to use him as they see fit, anyway, how much would half of Lydiate's contract be ?

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:14 am

I reckon he'll be on around 300k. Do the WRU pay the 40% or the 60%?

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:25 am

Coleman wrote:I reckon he'll be on around 300k. Do the WRU pay the 40% or the 60%?

300k !!!!! No wonder nobody wants him. Shocked

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:32 am

That is an assumption based on the going rate of players in France and also isn't Sam on around that as well? I may well be miles off of the mark. I'm assuming all of these DC players wages will be published in the WRU Accounts when they're released.

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:34 am

Coleman wrote:That is an assumption based on the going rate of players in France and also isn't Sam on around that as well? I may well be miles off of the mark. I'm assuming all of these DC players wages will be published in the WRU Accounts when they're released.

I always thought Sam was on 200k. Headscratch

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:36 am

Coleman wrote:I reckon he'll be on around 300k. Do the WRU pay the 40% or the 60%?

Are you delusional?. Why would they pay him 300K, when they only pay your goldenballs 275K.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:36 am

I remember when he left the Dragons, and one of the main reasons he left (according to a very good source), was because he was on £80k and the region couldn't offer him any more for his new contract even though he was at his peak, player of the 6N, Lions test star, etc. No wonder he left!

But £300k is a bit much, but they can offer it in France so they leave. As Peter's Pies said before, these players are able to command the biggest club salaries but are seldom there for the club due to international duty and injury. Roberts at the Blues played just a handful of games one season. Some sort of central contract was well overdue to avoid this conflict.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:39 am

wayne wrote:
Coleman wrote:I reckon he'll be on around 300k. Do the WRU pay the 40% or the 60%?
Are you delusional?. Why would they pay him 300K, when they only pay your goldenballs 275K.

I think he perhaps means what he's on in France. At a guess that figure could be about right - Gareth Thomas was on £250k at Toulouse all those years ago, Dan Carter was on £900k for a 9 month contract at Perpignan (could have been in Euros mind. can't remember), so I don't think £300k is too outlandish (for France).

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:45 am

Well lets start contemplating, we more or less know what Dragons players will be getting dc, so who do we think the others will be ? For me I would think:-

Ospreys

Dan Biggar
Rhys Webb
Dan Baker

Blues

Sam Warburton
Gareth Anscombe
Cory Allen

Scarlets

Liam Williams
Gareth Davies
Samson Lee

In December when more are announced, I think players like Ken Owens, Jake Ball, James King, Rhys Patchell, Scott Williams, Alex Cuthbert will all be in the mix for a new DC.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:46 am

Interesting that Priestland hasn't been considered so far

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:47 am

I think you need to calm down Wayne. £300k was a guess based on the fact that i thought Sam was on £375k.

by LordDowlais Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:48 am

IronMike wrote:Interesting that Priestland hasn't been considered so far

He'll probably get one, but he does not deserve one in my book.

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:51 am

Griff wrote:
wayne wrote:
Coleman wrote:I reckon he'll be on around 300k. Do the WRU pay the 40% or the 60%?
Are you delusional?. Why would they pay him 300K, when they only pay your goldenballs 275K.

I think he perhaps means what he's on in France. At a guess that figure could be about right - Gareth Thomas was on £250k at Toulouse all those years ago, Dan Carter was on £900k for a 9 month contract at Perpignan (could have been in Euros mind. can't remember), so I don't think £300k is too outlandish (for France).

I can accept he was on that in France, he will NOT get that in Wales, NOBODY on this round of DC will get as much as WRUburton, as I've already said on other topics 275K into 3.3M is 12 contracts and there is already stated in that WRU statement that there are others in the pipeline in Dec, to accomodate that number the average will well below 275K, and as that statement says Lydiate came into the process late, some of the list was already made up in Gatlands eye.

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:55 am

Coleman wrote:I think you need to calm down Wayne. £300k was a guess based on the fact that i thought Sam was on £375k.

I'm quite calm thank you, it has been extensively reported many times that WRUburton is on a 275K contract, as a Blues supporter I thought you would have known that

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:02 am

Plastic Blues fan me. In it for the glory.

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:14 am

Coleman wrote:Plastic Blues fan me. In it for the glory.

O.K, if I sounded aggressive, sorry, not what I wanted to convey.

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:05 pm

No worries at all. In your comment you said the WRU have other in the pipeline? Does that mean we could see more than 12 DC players? Like you said, not everyone will be on 275k. So there is room for additional players?

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:29 pm

Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Reports say Lydiate is off to the Os on a DC.

Suggests he might be. And there is speculation. But reading Gats latest interview he says talks have stalled over Lydiate because they can't find any common ground with the regions. Not a done deal yet.

WOL (not best source I know) today say deal is expected to be done after the AIs.

They list 10 'definites' then others who are after the last 2 slots. I think Amos and Morgan seem strange choices (least said about Anscombe the better) as definites when people like Webb, Tipuirc, Cuthbert, Ball and Owens are on the 'other' list.

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:44 pm

Coleman wrote:No worries at all. In your comment you said the WRU have other in the pipeline? Does that mean we could see more than 12 DC players? Like you said, not everyone will be on 275k. So there is room for additional players?

Coleman, the WRU have issued a statement, either last night or early this morning stating how all these progress, that could well be more in December, I think I seen the link to this on the Os website forum, you should be able to find it if you log onto the WRU website.

by HammerofThunor Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:46 pm

wayne wrote:
Coleman wrote:No worries at all. In your comment you said the WRU have other in the pipeline? Does that mean we could see more than 12 DC players? Like you said, not everyone will be on 275k. So there is room for additional players?
Coleman, the WRU have issued a statement, either last night or early this morning stating how all these progress, that could well be more in December, I think I seen the link to this on the Os website forum, you should be able to find it if you log onto the WRU website.

It says it in the BBC article linked in the original post as well. There may be another batch of 3-4 as early as December.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 1:17 pm

Morgan and Amos would've been in the AI squad though (well Amos was anyway for all the good it did him Wink

), so it is right that you give it to young talent. People like AWJ, Priestland and Scott Williams probably don't need them as they are loyal players and people like Lydiate don't deserve them (especially Lydiate who never wanted to be treated like a slab of meat).

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 1:46 pm

On the Lydiate issue and regions not being particularly keen to take him on (allegedly) - it must be a funny situation for clubs this central contract thing. Club rugby is usually based on the coach and his ability to select the team he wants and those players that will fill a gap or do a job in his game plan. Of course this is money dependent - those coaches at clubs with loads of money will buy the top guys and those with out come down the pecking order a bit until they find the right player at the right price that the coach hopes will do the job he's looking for. When new coaches arrive they buy the ones they want (money permitting) and let go of those that don't fit the plan.

With central contracts we're going to see players thrust upon coaches. Almost the opposite ethos to that mentioned above. These players may not fit into game plans and coaching philosophies, etc. What if no-one in Wales wants a 'chopper' like Lydiate? What if they're all after a running, ball playing 6? Tough! You're having him anyway! Do we then see more conflict between regions and WRU? As it happens most players are in situ at the moment so this shouldn't be too much of a problem, but I can envisage players being moved in future to accommodate up 'n coming talent in the same position who are worthy of a central contract (e.g. if another 8 comes through at the Dragons and Faletau is moved elsewhere). Could be interesting!

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 2:12 pm

Griff, the scenario you are portraying is as would happen if it was a Central Contract, that is long gone, Dual Contracts is what is now happening is both Regions and Gatland has input with Gatland having the final say in the process, up to the point where the player has the total final say, especially for where he wants to play his Regional rugby, it appears Lydiate doesn't want to play for the Dragons, because his partners family is from West Wales, his preferred option is the Ospreys according to reports.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 2:47 pm

wayne wrote:Griff, the scenario you are portraying is as would happen if it was a Central Contract, that is long gone, Dual Contracts is what is now happening is both Regions and Gatland has input with Gatland having the final say in the process, up to the point where the player has the total final say, especially for where he wants to play his Regional rugby, it appears Lydiate doesn't want to play for the Dragons, because his partners family is from West Wales, his preferred option is the Ospreys according to reports.

Yeah, cos The Ospreys are based in West Wales!

In all seriousness though you say "Gatland having the final say in the process" - while not as bad as the picture I was painting, a national coach having the final say on a club player - what does the club coach have to say? Where is their input? I know these players will have a limit on the number of appearances, but do they have a minimum they have to play too? And what if the coach, e.g. at the ospreys, doesn't want to play a certain player like Lydiate? Will they be forced to play them?

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 2:51 pm

P.s. you're looking at this from the point of the view of the player. What what about what the club wants (or doesn't want)?

Maybe it's just these returning players that need to fit in. However, just to open another can of worms: what if Mark Hammett, for example, is sacked and The Blues bring in Eddie Jones. What if he doesn't rate Warburton. Is he forced to pick him? Has this been thought through?

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:22 pm

Griff, I'm not saying it is perfect, there are get out clauses, the Regions have an input, if you go back to the PRW and WRU agreement, a couple of months ago if those 2 can't agree it goes back to the PRGB with the Judge having the casting vote and finally the player having the final say. If you remember Gatland said he had a PRGB meeting last monday, in some of todays comments even Gareth Davies sounds optimistic, I think most if not all of the small print stuff was sorted last week.
When Lyn Jones was our coach he had 2 nicknames, the Joker and Lyn the Lip, he fully lived up to the 2nd yesterday when naming the 3 Dragons players offered DC, nobody else mentioned anything until the WRU came out with this story, I doubt anything would have surfaced without his input

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:40 pm

I get all that Wayne. Not disagreeing at all. I just know that, from a coaching point of view, they will want to pick their own team. At the elite level you're paid a lot to pick the team you think will win and can carry out your game plan best (hence all Warren Gatland Lions arguments). But if a new coach comes in and is told he has to pick players as they are on dual contracts then that opens a lot of problems. Especially for elite coaches with big egos, big ambitions and big responsibility. Do players become undroppable at club level? Tricky!

by Coleman Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:48 pm

I don't think that coaches at regional level will be forced to pick their DC'd players. You would hope that the players on these contracts would be of such a high calibre that the incomming coach would be excited to work with them. In the offchance that the player is not in the coaches plans then maybe some horse trading will allow the player to move? You do raise a good point though.

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 4:02 pm

Griff, there were conflicting reports at the time of the WRU- PRW agreement, whether the DCs was on a yearly basis or for the full length of a players contract, if it is the first I don't see your problem and unless the Regions are run ineptly, and I know ours isn't, I cannot see them allowing Gatland to pick when these players can play, he will be able to say where they can play and how many games in the season they can play, with the get out clauses I've already stated, the WRU and by that I mean the Dodger are NOT in a very strong position.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014, 4:25 pm

[quote="Griff"]P.s. you're looking at this from the point of the view of the player. What what about what the club wants (or doesn't want)?

Maybe it's just these returning players that need to fit in. However, just to open another can of worms: what if Mark Hammett, for example, is sacked and The Blues bring in Eddie Jones. What if he doesn't rate Warburton. Is he forced to pick him? Has this been thought through?[/quote]

Be serious Griff, if any two bodies can royally cack things up then going by recent events the regions and the WRU can do it easily.

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 4:44 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Griff wrote:P.s. you're looking at this from the point of the view of the player. What what about what the club wants (or doesn't want)?

Maybe it's just these returning players that need to fit in. However, just to open another can of worms: what if Mark Hammett, for example, is sacked and The Blues bring in Eddie Jones. What if he doesn't rate Warburton. Is he forced to pick him? Has this been thought through?[/quote]

Be serious Griff, if any two bodies can royally cack things up then going by recent events the regions and the WRU can do it easily.

by wayne Wed 19 Nov 2014, 6:19 pm

Paul Abbondonato the Fail's sports editor says he knows the 12,
AWJ, Biggar, Webb, Amos, Morgan, Faletau, Cuthbert, Anscombe, S. Williams, Lee and Rhodri Jones, with Lydiate who he says is going to the Ospreys, make of that what you will.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014, 7:51 pm

wayne wrote:Paul Abbondonato the Fail's sports editor says he knows the 12,
AWJ, Biggar, Webb, Amos, Morgan, Faletau, Cuthbert, Anscombe, S. Williams, Lee and Rhodri Jones, with Lydiate who he says is going to the Ospreys, make of that what you will.

Is it 12 plus Warburton or 12 including him?

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:12 pm

Wheres Tipuric? Ken Owens? Gareth Davies etc?

Why would they give Tyler Morgan a contract over any of the above?

by Guest Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:26 pm

Because Tyler Morgan is amazing and the rest are pony.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:29 pm

Would be interesting to see the selection process for those chosen. Is it X amount from each Region or will it be so many from certain positions etc etc

by Seagultaf Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:04 pm

I think Central Contracts should be earnt. So IMO the 12 should be Welsh based players who are, first choice in their position and bench impact subs:

Gethin Jenkins (just about)
Ken Owens
Samson Lee
Jake Ball
Alan Wyn Jones
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb or Gareth Davies
Biggar
Cuthbert
Scott Williams
Liam Williams

Of the up and coming players Amos, Tyler Morgan, Baker are the obvious candidates but probably need to prove themselves over a season or so at Regional level first.

Or 3 from each region:

Blues:
Warburton, Jenkins, Cuthbert

Ospreys
Biggar, Alan Wyn Jones, Tipuric

Dragons
Faletau, Amos, Morgan

Scarlets
Owen, Ball, Lee

But I think my first shot is better!

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