Eddie Jones rates Japanese scrum amongst the Worlds Best

First topic message reminder :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsdEOzpMI9Q

He says it wasn't even in the top 30 before. Video is of Jones speaking at the Japan National Press Club in Tokyo.

Biltong wrote:I think the breakdown they can overcome, you naturally need to be lower to the ground, turnovers are more easily won because your centre of gravity is closer to the ground the shorter you are.

I watched the Japan vs Wales tests last year, and could see that the breakdown is something that can become a strength for them.

But set phase will always be a challenge.

Good point.  
At youth level, my sons' teams play a touring Japanese team every year as well as a Rugby club from a Japanese expat school in New York.  These kids are very fast, very skilled, and aggressive.  Last year my older son's team was lucky to win.  That was the first win against those teams in a number of years.  If this is part of the age level process with Japanese clubs and teams, then they will do very well in the future.

doctor_grey wrote:If this is part of the age level process with Japanese clubs and teams, then they will do very well in the future.

Sadly, it isn't. There is a serious lack of co-ordination in Japan's rugby programme. When you consider that England has only recently begun to bring younger talent into the national set-up, then it's perhaps not so surprising that Japan still lags on that front.

Biltong wrote:Japan's biggest challenge is size, I just don't know how they are going to overcome that unless they import players.

They could put in a couple of those Sumo's. Trouble is the game would be held up half an hour while they get to the next scrum...

If you want an idea of how poorly co-ordinated Japanese rugby can be, I can recommend Rich Freeman's blog post from yesterday:

http://japanrugby.blogspot.jp/2014/10/japanese-rugby-lacks-wa-japan-rugby.html

Well that japanese scrum doesnt look overly flash to me.

Half Time; Japan 7... The Maoris 35.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Well that japanese scrum doesnt look overly flash to me.

Half Time; Japan 7... The Maoris 35.

Is that a surprise?

Well, their scrum earned them a penalty try.

Technically they play the game well, but lack the necessary pace and power individuals.

The NZ Maori team just counters so well and the Japanese can't stop it.

Final score 61-21....

So someone on twitter says Japan have had two penalty tries and have otherwise been totally outclassed? Sounds familiar

Saw another account that describes the three Japan tries as; Penalty try, try off quick tap penalty won at the scrum, another penalty try at the scrum. Thats a pretty good return from any pack in that area. Them being outclassed everywhere else was predictable. Sounds like they more than held their own on in the scrums though and in fact got 21 points on the board off the back of it.

So fair play to Eddie. Now he just has to get everything else to be much better. Easy, right?

Japan won a lot of stats:

Penalty tries 2 to nil.
Territory 62% to 38%
Possession 64% to 36%.

Luckily for the Maoris they were able to score some brilliant long range tries.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Japan won a lot of stats:

Penalty tries 2 to nil.
Territory 62% to 38%
Possession 64% to 36%.

Luckily for the Maoris they were able to score some brilliant long range tries.

Clinical off turnover ball. A feature of the game when New Zealand beat Japan as well, I got to watch that one. Better decision making in those pressured moments when the wrong decision means the ball goes dead or slows down but the right decision and the perfect execution means you're under the posts. Also in the other game they had more intensity at the breakdown and in attack, more dynamism and more options offered to the ball carrier.

Wold have been interested to see this one. Oh well.

Notch wrote:So someone on twitter says Japan have had two penalty tries and have otherwise been totally outclassed? Sounds familiar

Saw another account that describes the three Japan tries as; Penalty try, try off quick tap penalty won at the scrum, another penalty try at the scrum. Thats a pretty good return from any pack in that area. Them being outclassed everywhere else was predictable. Sounds like they more than held their own on in the scrums though and in fact got 21 points on the board off the back of it.

So fair play to Eddie. Now he just has to get everything else to be much better. Easy, right?

Just goes to show theres more to Rugby than scrums.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Notch wrote:So someone on twitter says Japan have had two penalty tries and have otherwise been totally outclassed? Sounds familiar

Saw another account that describes the three Japan tries as; Penalty try, try off quick tap penalty won at the scrum, another penalty try at the scrum. Thats a pretty good return from any pack in that area. Them being outclassed everywhere else was predictable. Sounds like they more than held their own on in the scrums though and in fact got 21 points on the board off the back of it.

So fair play to Eddie. Now he just has to get everything else to be much better. Easy, right?

 
Just goes to show theres more to Rugby than scrums.

Which is what I said before.

Jones was proved right. He said Japan had a strong scrum. I agreed with him, and said that he was right. I also said that they had a weak most other things. Jones would privately have to admit thats true because his entire job is to address that but he should not talk about how weak his team is at whatever in the media. Not unless thats the only way he has to motivate them to improve. So what do you want from him?

Pre-game; "Oh, Eddie, talking up the Japanese scrum very dangerous! Very risky! Not sure about that'
Game; Japanese scrum gets the edge over their opponents and two penalty tries. Many other areas let them down.
Post-game; "Oh Eddie, scrums aren't everything!

It seems like its about having a pop at Eddie Jones at this stage instead of just saying, 'Fair play Eddie Jones was right on the money about the Japanese scrum. Dunno if it's top five but it's gotten quite good. Still not that great a side everywhere else though'

Highlights:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X53Y6AK5Xs

Makes the notion of a Japanese super rugby team look a bit stupid.

Surely Maori, Samoa and toga and Fiji must be ahead in the queue.

Oh wait - it's all about money, not rugby.

Notch wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Notch wrote:So someone on twitter says Japan have had two penalty tries and have otherwise been totally outclassed? Sounds familiar

Saw another account that describes the three Japan tries as; Penalty try, try off quick tap penalty won at the scrum, another penalty try at the scrum. Thats a pretty good return from any pack in that area. Them being outclassed everywhere else was predictable. Sounds like they more than held their own on in the scrums though and in fact got 21 points on the board off the back of it.

So fair play to Eddie. Now he just has to get everything else to be much better. Easy, right?

 
Just goes to show theres more to Rugby than scrums.

Which is what I said before.

Jones was proved right. He said Japan had a strong scrum. I agreed with him, and said that he was right. I also said that they had a weak most other things. Jones would privately have to admit thats true because his entire job is to address that but he should not talk about how weak his team is at whatever in the media. Not unless thats the only way he has to motivate them to improve. So what do you want from him?

Pre-game; "Oh, Eddie, talking up the Japanese scrum very dangerous! Very risky! Not sure about that'
Game; Japanese scrum gets the edge over their opponents and two penalty tries. Many other areas let them down.
Post-game; "Oh Eddie, scrums aren't everything!

It seems like its about having a pop at Eddie Jones at this stage instead of just saying, 'Fair play Eddie Jones was right on the money about the Japanese scrum. Dunno if it's top five but it's gotten quite good. Still not that great a side everywhere else though'

yes it was very good...not that the Maori scrum is top five but still very impressive. Shame about the rest.

That is a bit of a wake up call for Japanese rugby even if they were missing the likes of Tanaka and Hori.

Hopefully this Super rugby team will help improve their squad depth.

the Japanease have a habbit of talking themselves up a bit too much, especially before world cups. I remember in 1994 they said they were expecting to beat Wales and Ireland in their pool, run NewZealand close and push for the semifinals. They lost 50-60 points to Wales and Ireland and lost something like 145-13 to Newzealand.

I'm worried their taking too much from their win against Wales last year, we picked a team of 3rd stringers and regional squad players along with a 17 year old Premiership player and shared a test series, on their own soil.

They really need to beat a team at full strength ranked in the top 7 in the world to be talking about pushing on. A strong Japan would be great for world rugby though

Just checked. Yep losing to Japan is still humiliating for any tier one (or two) nation.

Not sure it's a Japanese flaw, in this case it's Eddie Jones with the big mouth.

Shifty wrote:the Japanease have a habbit of talking themselves up a bit too much, especially before world cups.  I remember in 1994 they said they were expecting to beat Wales and Ireland in their pool, run NewZealand close and push for the semifinals.  They lost 50-60 points to Wales and Ireland and lost something like 145-13 to Newzealand.

Yeah can be a good thing to have- the perception that you are the best- but only if you can back it up with self-criticism. I don't think thats something thats encouraged so much over there, dissent.

I don't think Japan has a habit of bigging themselves up at all. The coach in 1994 was Osamu Koyabu, and he's as far from a braggart as you could get. He favoured an attacking brand of rugby, and encouraged his players to back themselves, but he wouldn't have shown any disrespect to opposition sides.

The most bullish Japan coach was probably John Kirwan ahead of the last World Cup. He was confident his team would get its first wins in World Cup history by beating Canada and Tonga. That wasn't particularly arrogant since his team had dispatched both in the run-up to the tournament. As it turns out, they couldn't deliver. losing to Tonga and drawing with Canada.

From what I know the Japanese culture is one of respect and humility, so not to sure you can credit them with "bigging themselves up"

Hmmm, I wonder if there is a nation renowned for bigging themselves up in a ludicrous way and then not delivering...

Eddie Jones in 'rates bad scrum' shocker.....

One thing that was great over the weekend was NZ sides were able to beat 2 of the likely World cup sides with 50 plus scores, plus contribute to an almost third (Oz) using B-D players, most of the A side sitting out in Chicago.

Not a bad effort and quite a busy weekend with matches on 3 continents.

Careful Taylor I pointed that out and there was
A bit of a kerfuffle afterwards.

Wow People rating England in the worlds top five scrums
Still living in 2003 eh?! because surely you can't be talking about the current English scrum

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Wow People rating England in the worlds top five scrums
Still living in 2003 eh?! because surely you can't be talking about the current English scrum

What a waste of smileys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF5KXo3_5z4

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF5KXo3_5z4

Excellent case study for referees to show how easily teams can con referees.

As I remember the Welsh front row couldn't believe the stuff they got away with. It seems some of their supporters still can't get over it, 19 months later.

12:06 of just scrum resets, in one game. What a waste of time.

Biltong wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF5KXo3_5z4

Excellent case study for referees to show how easily teams can con referees.

As I remember the Welsh front row couldn't believe the stuff they got away with. It seems some of their supporters still can't get over it, 19 months later.

Watch walsh closely and he takes a lot of the calls from the touch judges, also seen this "the welsh front row couldn't believe what they got away with" line being spun around 606 but no one has ever backed it up! its become an urban legend like when Phil Vickery literally got Beasted in the 2009 Lions series 606 was alight with it being all Alun Wyn Jones fault for being to weak "packing down" until I had to remind the clueless bunch who posted on 606 how a scrum is set, with O'Connell "packing down" behind Vickery
I see your not excluded from such brain farts either Biltong as you throw out such wild statements,lets not forget just because the rugby team you support is successful it doesn't mean you know everything does it

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

Biltong wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF5KXo3_5z4

Excellent case study for referees to show how easily teams can con referees.

As I remember the Welsh front row couldn't believe the stuff they got away with. It seems some of their supporters still can't get over it, 19 months later.

Watch walsh closely and he takes a lot of the calls from the touch judges, also seen this "the welsh front row couldn't believe what they got away with" line being spun around 606 but no one has ever backed it up! its become an urban legend like when Phil Vickery literally got Beasted in the 2009 Lions series 606 was alight with it being all Alun Wyn Jones fault for being to weak "packing down" until  I had to remind the clueless bunch who posted on 606 how a scrum is set, with O'Connell "packing down" behind Vickery
I see your not excluded from such brain farts either Biltong as you throw out such wild statements,lets not forget just because the rugby team you support is successful it doesn't mean you know everything does it

Has nothing to do with me or my team, there was a newspaper article at the time.

Well there was a lot of talk at the time about Adam Jones admitting to doing his job and taking the urine, because he could get away with it. Its his job to take any advantage he can. Its the ref's job to police it.

Interesting to see what happened a year later with many of the same players and a different referee.

And why exactly is this thread going to England vs Wales. I thought this was about Japan.

TobyBryant wrote:Hmmm, I wonder if there is a nation renowned for bigging themselves up in a ludicrous way and then not delivering...

If you want to start a conversation about Scotland then please open another topic, don't hijack the Japanease one.

lostinwales wrote:Well there was a lot of talk at the time about Adam Jones admitting to doing his job and taking the urine, because he could get away with it. Its his job to take any advantage he can. Its the ref's job to police it.

Interesting to see what happened a year later with many of the same players and a different referee.

And why exactly is this thread going to England vs Wales. I thought this was about Japan.

Still a lot of bitter resentment over us peeing on your grand slam dream I see. It's been a while since you last won a tournament, and you had waited even longer before that one came. Better keep blaming the ref's.

Maori team to play Japan tonight in Tokyo:  

1. Chris Eves  
2. Codie taylor
3. Mike kanara
4. Tom Franklin    
5. Blade Thomson
6. Dan Pryor
7. Sean Polwart
8. Elliott Dixon
9. Chris Smylie
10. Ihaia West
11. James Lowe
12. Charlie Ngatai
13.Matt Proctor
14.Kurt Baker
15. Nehe Milner-Skudder.

Six changes from the team that won last week, the one that impresses me is Dan Pryor, he has been brilliant in the ITM playing for North Auckland  must surely with games against teams like Japan be a serious selection possibility in Super xv.

And for Kiwis, yes he is the grandson of Alby.

Maoris score the first try by Taylor set up by Pryor. 7 nil to maoris after 20 minutes.

.......... and it's now 15 - 15.

Much better from Japan, 15-15 after 63 minutes

18 - 15 Japan

Northland Taniwha scores the winning try

Heart breaking for Japan.

Excellent game, Japan played bloody excellent rugby up front and in the backs.

The Maoris played some dumb football, they didnt respect possession. well played Japan, as I mentioned above stunning display of openside flanker play by Dan Pryor.

Jeez,
The Japan scrum was indeed very good. Didn't see last week's match, but today their scrum was better than the opposition. Doesn't put them in the world top 5, but steps in the right direction.

Really feel for the Japan team. If their Hooker didn't freeze on that last line out in Maori territory and not throw straight, they could have run out the clock in the Maori half. Mental error.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The Maoris played some dumb football, they didnt respect possession. well played Japan, as I mentioned above stunning display of openside flanker play by Dan Pryor.

Agree, Dan took his chance last week when he came on as sub and consolidated his value today. Next step .... The All Black's ? Possibly to late until after the world cup now but if I was Hanson I would give him a call now before another Taniwha leaves for Europe before having a fair go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyfLlKN6Hg

rainbow-warrior wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The Maoris played some dumb football, they didnt respect possession. well played Japan, as I mentioned above stunning display of openside flanker play by Dan Pryor.

Agree, Dan took his chance last week when he came on as sub and consolidated his value today.  Next step .... The All Black's ?  Possibly to late until after the world cup now but if I was Hanson I would give him a call now before another Taniwha leaves for Europe before having a fair go.

Definitely one of the players of the ITM and carried that form up a level. Has he got a Superxv contract?

Taylorman wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The Maoris played some dumb football, they didnt respect possession. well played Japan, as I mentioned above stunning display of openside flanker play by Dan Pryor.

Agree, Dan took his chance last week when he came on as sub and consolidated his value today.  Next step .... The All Black's ?  Possibly to late until after the world cup now but if I was Hanson I would give him a call now before another Taniwha leaves for Europe before having a fair go.

Definitely one of the players of the ITM and carried that form up a level. Has he got a Superxv contract?

I think I read he was offered a contract by Highlanders.

Rather odd, because I recall he was on the Auckland roster previously. And, based upon last season, could use a player like him.

Good player. Bad hair.