Eddie Jones rates Japanese scrum amongst the Worlds Best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsdEOzpMI9Q

He says it wasn't even in the top 30 before. Video is of Jones speaking at the Japan National Press Club in Tokyo.

"Australian praises scrum"

Talk about damning with faint praise.

Pool B is going to be very interesting to see who the runners up are. I believe any one of Samoa, Scotland, Japan and USA are capable of qualifying.

Unless of course, Scotland tidy up their act and reach their potential.

Has Eddie Jones ever seen a great scrum?

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but that is great for Japan, their line outs I think is an altogether different challenge.

New Zealand lost one against the head when they played Japan last year. Mind you, the scoreline still read 6 - 54.

This video shows the difference Maso has made as coach:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6z1rwo1aP8

You see Japan had the Americans in all kinds of trouble last year, so they'll need to step up if the are to avoid an embarrassment at the weekend.

Biltong wrote:Has Eddie Jones ever seen a great scrum?

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but that is great for Japan, their line outs I think is an altogether different challenge.

I believe that Steve Borthwick is the Japan forwards coach so he should be able to help Japan sort out their lineout!

IronMike wrote:Pool B is going to be very interesting to see who the runners up are. I believe any one of Samoa, Scotland, Japan and USA are capable of qualifying.

Unless of course, Scotland tidy up their act and reach their potential.

I guess I've been concentrating too much on England's pool but, yeah, Scotland have a really tough group!

IronMike wrote:Pool B is going to be very interesting to see who the runners up are. I believe any one of Samoa, Scotland, Japan and USA are capable of qualifying.

Unless of course, Scotland tidy up their act and reach their potential.

Or Samoa.

I think Samoa is going to be a tough nut to crack next year, they are taking RWC very seriously these days.

Who is top 5?

I would say Argentina, Boks, England, New Zealand and Ireland in that order.

That's a bold statement. What is the Japan pack weighing in at?

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:Has Eddie Jones ever seen a great scrum?

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but that is great for Japan, their line outs I think is an altogether different challenge.

I believe that Steve Borthwick is the Japan forwards coach so he should be able to help Japan sort out their lineout!

I think the problem is more the fact the players are vertically challenged.

Out of interest how tall is the current Japan pack...do they have tall guys...or is that the Polynesians they have brought in.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:Has Eddie Jones ever seen a great scrum?

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but that is great for Japan, their line outs I think is an altogether different challenge.

I believe that Steve Borthwick is the Japan forwards coach so he should be able to help Japan sort out their lineout!

I think the problem is more the fact the players are vertically challenged.

Out of interest how tall is the current Japan pack...do they have tall guys...or is that the Polynesians they have brought in.

1 P Masataka Mikami
2 H Shota Horie
3 P Kensuke Hatakeyama
4 L Shoji Ito
5 L Luke Thompson
6 F Justin Ives
7 F Michael Leitch (c)
8 N8 Koliniashi Holani

that's the pack on the day they beat Italy in June. 5,6 & 7 sound non Japanese. Unless some Aussie for example has gone full native that is???

Ono is down on wikipedia as 6'4".  He's the only native lock with his own page on there. The JRFU website seems to be a news site rather than general information about the union, or union in Japan.

Being completely racist, but looking at the wikipedia squad around 7 or 8 out of 30 odd have non-Japanese sounding names (not that I'm an expert on Japanese or Polynesian names).

HammerofThunor wrote:Ito is down on wikipedia as 6'4".  He's the only native lock with his own page on there. The JRFU website seems to be a news site rather than general information about the union, or union in Japan.

Not just the jumpers height.

Etzebeth is one of the main lifters for the boks. He's 6'8, then there is his arm length.... then the height of the jumper whoever it maybe.

Get a 6'6 chap there and if you'll be a whole head above anyone with a 6'4 jumper being lifted by a 6'5 chap.

Yes I think Japan have been strengthened by the Polynesians they have brought in.

Looking at the Japanese squad it doesn't look like they have too many youngsters compared to other international squads.

fa0019 wrote:1 P Masataka Mikami
2 H Shota Horie
3 P Kensuke Hatakeyama
4 L Shoji Ito
5 L Luke Thompson
6 F Justin Ives
7 F Michael Leitch (c)
8 N8 Koliniashi Holani

that's the pack on the day they beat Italy in June. 5,6 & 7 sound non Japanese. Unless some Aussie for example has gone full native that is???

Leitch , Thompson and Holani are naturalized Japanese citizens.

Holani went to Japan when he was 16, and his uncle also played for the Japanese national team.

Leitch first went to Japan when he was 15, playing high school rugby, and then later university rugby.

Thompson went to Japan in 2004 to join Sanyo's team. He naturalized in 2010, which was actually three years before Leitch.

Justin Ives went to Japan first in 2008 and, as far as I know, hasn't naturalized. He was the only foreigner in that pack.

fa0019 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ito is down on wikipedia as 6'4".  He's the only native lock with his own page on there. The JRFU website seems to be a news site rather than general information about the union, or union in Japan.

Not just the jumpers height.

Etzebeth is one of the main lifters for the boks. He's 6'8, then there is his arm length.... then the height of the jumper whoever it maybe.

Get a 6'6 chap there and if you'll be a whole head above anyone with a 6'4 jumper being lifted by a 6'5 chap.

Lions trip to SA. Croft jumped with AWJ as the lifter. very effective unless cloud cover was particularly low.

lostinwales wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ito is down on wikipedia as 6'4".  He's the only native lock with his own page on there. The JRFU website seems to be a news site rather than general information about the union, or union in Japan.

Not just the jumpers height.

Etzebeth is one of the main lifters for the boks. He's 6'8, then there is his arm length.... then the height of the jumper whoever it maybe.

Get a 6'6 chap there and if you'll be a whole head above anyone with a 6'4 jumper being lifted by a 6'5 chap.

Lions trip to SA. Croft jumped with AWJ as the lifter. very effective unless cloud cover was particularly low.

Same with Lawes. When you have a relatively light chap who is tall then get another tall beast to throw him up. A lot more subtle if one chap alone can do the lifting.

Rugby Fan wrote:New Zealand lost one against the head when they played Japan last year. Mind you, the scoreline still read 6 - 54.

This video shows the difference Maso has made as coach:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6z1rwo1aP8

You see Japan had the Americans in all kinds of trouble last year, so they'll need to step up if the are to avoid an embarrassment at the weekend.

That is a brilliant try they score against Scotland near the end. 

The video highlights a real improvement, so hats off to the Japanese rugby team. If they've improved since then as Eddie Jones is saying, everyone could be in for a shock!

HammerofThunor wrote:...The JRFU website seems to be a news site rather than general information about the union, or union in Japan.

Well, it is the Japanese national union, so all the information you mention is primarily in Japanese (the main website is http://www.rugby-japan.jp/). Player profiles, for instance, are here:

http://sakura.rugby-japan.jp/japan/2014/id25157.html (actually, you can see each player's height & weight without needing Japanese)

The English part of the website isn't that bad. For instance, the table at the bottom of this piece has player data for the match this weekend:

http://jrfu.org/jrfu/index.php/latest/item/259-japan-side-named-for-1st-maori-game

Of that team, the only non-Japanese in the starting XV are Hopgood in the forwards and Sau in the backs. On the bench, I think Mafi (who has just turned down Tonga in favour of Japan) and Hesketh are both overseas players.

Funnily enough, a Japanese player on the bench, Kosei Ono, has played more rugby in New Zealand than his captain Michael Leitch. Ono's family moved to New Zealand when he was three and he went to Christchurch Boys' High School. He played alongside Owen Franks and Colin Slade.

Rugby Fan wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:...The JRFU website seems to be a news site rather than general information about the union, or union in Japan.

Well, it is the Japanese national union, so all the information you mention is primarily in Japanese (the main website is http://www.rugby-japan.jp/). Player profiles, for instance, are here:

http://sakura.rugby-japan.jp/japan/2014/id25157.html (actually, you can see each player's height & weight without needing Japanese)

The English part of the website isn't that bad. For instance, the table at the bottom of this piece has player data for the match this weekend:

http://jrfu.org/jrfu/index.php/latest/item/259-japan-side-named-for-1st-maori-game

Of that team, the only non-Japanese in the starting XV are Hopgood in the forwards and Sau in the backs. On the bench, I think Mafi (who has just turned down Tonga in favour of Japan) and Hesketh are both overseas players.

Funnily enough, a Japanese player on the bench, Kosei Ono, has played more rugby in New Zealand than his captain Michael Leitch. Ono's family moved to New Zealand when he was three and he went to Christchurch Boys' High School. He played alongside Owen Franks and Colin Slade.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://sakura.rugby-japan.jp/japan/2014/id25157.html&usg=ALkJrhi_DaLvd-gYmOOwmmh6YRuYxZjneA

Biltong wrote:Has Eddie Jones ever seen a great scrum?

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but that is great for Japan, their line outs I think is an altogether different challenge.

Why, yes, mon ami!
Eddie Jones has seen great scrums before.  He coached against England................................

Sorry Biltong.  
Couldn't help myself.  
I crack myself up at times.

What would the Top 5 scrums be?

HammerofThunor wrote:Being completely racist, but looking at the wikipedia squad around 7 or 8 out of 30 odd have non-Japanese sounding names (not that I'm an expert on Japanese or Polynesian names).

I don't think thats being racist at all. Given the trend that exists right around the rugby world right now of guys going overseas to get play their rugby and going native on residency, I don't think thats an unreasonable assumption you made. It's an assumption of course, but it's not unreasonable.

I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on Japan all of a sudden. I was only there for two weeks. But I think it is a very insular country as well. There are immigrant populations but even after several generations they are never really accepted, was the way my sister talked to me about it when she was living there. She actually said something to me about there being a controversy in the very small town in which she lived over the Mayor having a great-grandparent who was Korean. Now that could have been the local equivalent to UKIP, you know, I don't know- and of course thats small town Japan which is inherently more conservative than the major urban centres- and maybe I'm just being unfair here, but I didn't get the impression there's the level of inter-marriage between Japanese and gaijin* that would mean there were a load of Japanese going about with non-native surnames. I did see a lot of very beautiful Japanese women with slovenly, average-looking western men going about in Osaka. Not sure what thats about. (My sister to me; see "Notch" even you could get a pretty girlfriend here )

*(the Japanese word for foreigner, which literally means outside person and often seems to be used in a pejorative sense)

Brave words from Eddie, so the 11th placed team in the world has a scrum thats rated in the top 5.

Now what will the Maoris All Blacks, who dont have any IRB ranking think about this on the eve of their first test (Of two) against Japan?

doctor_grey wrote:Sorry Biltong.  
Couldn't help myself.  
I crack myself up at times.

Morning Doc, how are you?

When John Kirwan coached Japan, he selected a lot of overseas players who had qualified on residency grounds. Over one third of his World Cup squad was non-Japanese and this meant a lot of fans found it harder to connect with the team. If they had succeeded, then this policy might have been overlooked but Kirwan didn't win a single match at the 2011 tournament, despite some good victories in the run-up.

Eddie Jones was asked to focus less on imports, and he's done that. Only a handful of his squad are now non-Japanese, and some of the recent caps are the result of injuries. The current squad, and replacements brought in for tomorrow, break down as follows:

Thompson, Tui, Leitch, Holani - Japanese nationals
Broadhurst, Hopgood, Wing, Sa'u, Ives, Hesketh, Mafi - residency qualified

On current form, Jones will likely have around four residency qualified players in his World Cup squad.

Some might get confused looking at Kotaro Matsushima but he's a Japanese national too. He was born in South Africa to a Japanese mum and Zimbabwean dad, and has lived in Japan since he was three.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Brave words from Eddie, so the 11th placed team in the world has a scrum thats rated in the top 5.

Now what will the Maoris All Blacks, who dont have any IRB ranking think about this on the eve of their first test (Of two) against Japan?

They'll probably think that even if they lose a scrum or two against the head they'll still run in a hat load of tries by being better at every other facet of the game. I don't think even Eddie Jones would dispute that in his own head.

It's not brave words at all. It's smart words. He knows rightly that they have one real strength and a dozen crippling weaknesses. He also knows that his team are up against it when it comes to the Maori All Blacks- not only do New Zealand sides have superior skill levels but they have the psychologically lethal cocktail of being able to be overwhelming favourites and still have a chip on the shoulder and something to prove to the world every time they take to the pitch. Your post kind of illustrates that my friend!

So the Maori are... overwhelming favourites. And Eddie Jones has one positive to hold onto in the face of that. The scrum. He can say to Japanese Rugby and the world at large that Japan is really good at this one specific unit skill- with the unspoken implication that if Japan can get good at one facet of the game, more can follow. Or he can point out all the reasons why Japan are rightly favourites to get stuffed by the NZ Maori.

I mean, what would you do?

By the way, sorry for the change in title on this thread. I accidentally deleted the original title when I was writing my post. Pitfalls of having a mod account.

Notch, I think Eddie could have just carried on with the Underdog theme, left the scrums completely out of it and dont give the Maori ABs the slightest thing to work with, coming into the game, the risk with what hes done is that he runs the risk of these New Zealanders attacking what you perceive as your strongest weapon, and they will now.Take every thing off your opposition so that they are left with nothing, its Rugby 101.

Its vital that in a game you go through a process to dominate in all aspects of play.

Eddie is a cunning (and smart) old dog,He's been here before many times, he wont give a damn what Japanese rugby or the World at large think of what he says except the New Zealanders that is.

Notch wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Brave words from Eddie, so the 11th placed team in the world has a scrum thats rated in the top 5.

Now what will the Maoris All Blacks, who dont have any IRB ranking think about this on the eve of their first test (Of two) against Japan?

They'll probably think that even if they lose a scrum or two against the head they'll still run in a hat load of tries by being better at every other facet of the game. I don't think even Eddie Jones would dispute that in his own head.

It's not brave words at all. It's smart words. He knows rightly that they have one real strength and a dozen crippling weaknesses. He also knows that his team are up against it when it comes to the Maori All Blacks- not only do New Zealand sides have superior skill levels but they have the psychologically lethal cocktail of being able to be overwhelming favourites and still have a chip on the shoulder and something to prove to the world every time they take to the pitch. Your post kind of illustrates that my friend!  

So the Maori are... overwhelming favourites. And Eddie Jones has one positive to hold onto in the face of that. The scrum. He can say to Japanese Rugby and the world at large that Japan is really good at this one specific unit skill- with the unspoken implication that if Japan can get good at one facet of the game, more can follow. Or he can point out all the reasons why Japan are rightly favourites to get stuffed by the NZ Maori.

I mean, what would you do?

I think this post proves who has the chip on their shoulder to be fair.

I think Notch was using the term figuratively, as in a healthy staunch competitive attitude, nothing wrong with that. in fact I applaud it.

Apologies didn't translate well.

You sure? He won't give a damn about what Japanese Rugby thinks? Including the players he coaches? If anything I think those guys are the people who he's most concerned about here. Seems to me like Eddie knows they are onto a losing proposition here.

The important thing for Japan here is the take aways after the game. And I don't mean fush and chups either! Or curry neither. What they take from the game, the building blocks that will turn into future success. And you know what- lets show the opposition some respect but lets not be idiots.

And tailoring what you say in the media because you're worried about how the other team will react is being an idiot. It really is! So say the Maori scrum gets pumped up and goes out to dominate that area. Say they do dominate that area. Isn't that a different door to the same house? I mean, he says they are in the top five, which means he thinks they're fifth. What do they want to be next? It has to be to be the fourth best scrummaging team in the world. Thats the next logical step. So how does that happen? They've got to come up against the toughest scrummaging opponents they can face. Anything that pressures them is a good thing. Anything that makes the scrum even more of a battleground is good for the Japanese front row in terms of learning and developing. So kudos due to Eddie if they do go after the scrum in a big way.

Now I'm not entirely sold on that view myself, that was maybe even a bit of devils advocate, because they have so many weaknesses to work on. And you know very well yourself; the Maori are too good to do what you're suggesting. Psychologically it's massive to specifically target the oppositions biggest strength and beat them there. But the scrum is the only area where they might not have the advantage! No way will they target that as a priority, they'll target the many glaring weaknesses that are there. They'll say we'll do this, this and this and if we do that we'll pull them apart and thats what will happen. The same as before Eddie opened his mouth.

Maybe after that happens you'll come back and dismiss old Eddie Jones, but lets be honest he and his players have basically got to throw a triple six in every aspect of their preparation and performance to make this a tight game so they are without external pressure anyway. Even if they lose they can't lose! I'm sure they'll have their targets set and I'm sure Eddie Jones will be applying internal pressure on his players to deliver on that.

But they are still very weak in some areas so however skilfully Eddie Jones has shifted the conversation in the media away from them I'm sure his internal targets will be regarding those areas.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I think Notch was using the term figuratively, as in a healthy staunch competitive attitude, nothing wrong with that. in fact I applaud it.

Yeah I do as well. Would Munster have won the European Cup in 2006 and 2008 without a chip on their shoulder? Would my own team Ulster have won it in 1999? Probably not.

Mixed blessings on it to be honest. It's a great mentality for winning trophies, but it's sure as hell not a good way to go through life in general.

TobyBryant wrote:Apologies didn't translate well.

Hey don't worry about it. You and I are still on for drinks later right?

Right?

I don't think anyone in the Maori camp knows what Eddie Jones said to the Japan National Press Club. It wasn't reported anywhere. I think 606 and Reddit might be the only places linking to that video.

They do know about the Japanese scrum because the All Blacks saw it last year. It's not the same scrum, however, because they've had some injuries. Both teams will be weaker than they'd like tomorrow in Kobe.

Notch wrote:

TobyBryant wrote:Apologies didn't translate well.

Hey don't worry about it. You and I are still on for drinks later right?

Right?

If you say so? Was I drunk when I arranged that?

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Brave words from Eddie, so the 11th placed team in the world has a scrum thats rated in the top 5.

Now what will the Maoris All Blacks, who dont have any IRB ranking think about this on the eve of their first test (Of two) against Japan?

Obviously Eddie Jones has chosen to highlight the Japan scrum, without having seen it I couldn't comment

I wouldn't be surprised to see a team low in the rankings with a great scrum though, the Georgians come to mind with the likes of Kubriashvili and Zirakashvili who are both excellent in the tight, I reckon they would give many of the Tier 1 teams a going over in the scrum

Eddie Jones - the coach that brought the world Matt Dunning!

It concerns me to hear that Japan are really focusing on their set piece. I can't see Scotland winning any of the games in that Group particularly comfortably, and gone are the days where you could count on wracking up 50 point wins against "minnows". Japan will be awkward opponents and Samoa will be a massive physical challenge.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Eddie Jones - the coach that brought the world Matt Dunning!

It concerns me to hear that Japan are really focusing on their set piece. I can't see Scotland winning any of the games in that Group particularly comfortably, and gone are the days where you could count on wracking up 50 point wins against "minnows". Japan will be awkward opponents and Samoa will be a massive physical challenge.

What a drop goal though.... he could of tried that 100 times and wouldn't have made another. Shame he was looking for the penalty not the 3.

If Jonsey thinks Japan's scrum is top five, who are the other 4?  Boks for sure.  Then he is saying the Japan scrum is better than all but three of the All Blacks, England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Argentina, Wales, Australia?  Time to see what kind of monster hath Eddie wrought......

Argentinian scrum is better than the Bok scrum

TobyBryant wrote:

Notch wrote:

TobyBryant wrote:Apologies didn't translate well.

Hey don't worry about it. You and I are still on for drinks later right?

Right?

If you say so? Was I drunk when I arranged that?

No, but you will be after. Don't worry, I'm just kidding around.

I think I'll need to stop making fun of Japanese rugby soon.
They have 123,000 registered players. Scotland has less than 48,000.

So maybe not now, but in 10 years' time, they're going to give us a hiding.

Japan's biggest challenge is size, I just don't know how they are going to overcome that unless they import players.

Agree. Scrums and lineouts will be deadly for them and eventually the breakdown. But they will be drilled extremely well, have a lot of movement and be very precise. Will be interesting to see how they develop.

I think the breakdown they can overcome, you naturally need to be lower to the ground, turnovers are more easily won because your centre of gravity is closer to the ground the shorter you are.

I watched the Japan vs Wales tests last year, and could see that the breakdown is something that can become a strength for them.

But set phase will always be a challenge.